Refining Qi to Shen

[konchog uma]

It may be more productive to plant crops in the springtime and harvest them in the fall, rather than the other way around. Or perhaps not? Ultimately it's your call, regardless of how much instruction, guidance, teachings, and related ephemera you have accumulated.

 

if you are trying to cryptically say that i am already doing it, or already know how, thank you. I agree, i am definitely seeing a difference in consciousness and emotions with my qi cultivation. And while the raw intention to do it might be just the seeds i need to bear the shenly fruit, i would rather hear it from a qualified teacher, which i am not sure you are. No disrespect, i do appreciate your opinions, i just learn in a certain way, and its not always from my own intuition, higher self, etc.

 

That is, if thats even what you were trying to say.

[Aetherous]

Speaking of which, could you describe yourself and your path, 9th? I have found your ideas and demeanor here interesting.

[9th]

if you are trying to cryptically say that i am already doing it, or already know how, thank you. I agree, i am definitely seeing a difference in consciousness and emotions with my qi cultivation. And while the raw intention to do it might be just the seeds

 

Actually I am trying to cryptically say you are not ready. I am saying there is a proper time and place for all things. The teachings you are searching for regarding the matter of refining chi into shen are derived at a personal level in tandem with the harmony of internal and external. You can read a million books about such things and it will be entirely meaningless unless you have the ripened fruit. The ripened fruit beckons the further nourishment it can provide. Seeking for it in the "ordinary" way will serve no purpose, as it cannot be sought, only found. Once you understand that, you will understand why it must be that way.

[JustARandomPanda]

It is my understanding that at every stage of cultivation the ultimate goal is that I let go. Which is easier to say than to do. The first thing I am trying to let go of is thoughts...

 

 

Because for me thoughts often lead my desires. Still the thoughts....then just see what arises and passes away. And just keep that up all the way to the Void.

 

 

BTW - I have the Livia Kohn book and just want to alert people it is a very dense/scholarly book. Not at all like any other Taoist Alchemy book I own. But still there's much in it worth checking out.

[Cameron]

It is my understanding that at every stage of cultivation the ultimate goal is that I let go. Which is easier to say than to do. The first thing I am trying to let go of is thoughts...

 

 

Because for me thoughts often lead my desires. Still the thoughts....then just see what arises and passes away. And just keep that up all the way to the Void.

 

 

BTW - I have the Livia Kohn book and just want to alert people it is a very dense/scholarly book. Not at all like any other Taoist Alchemy book I own. But still there's much in it worth checking out.

 

Nice!

[konchog uma]

Actually I am trying to cryptically say you are not ready. I am saying there is a proper time and place for all things. The teachings you are searching for regarding the matter of refining chi into shen are derived at a personal level in tandem with the harmony of internal and external. You can read a million books about such things and it will be entirely meaningless unless you have the ripened fruit. The ripened fruit beckons the further nourishment it can provide. Seeking for it in the "ordinary" way will serve no purpose, as it cannot be sought, only found. Once you understand that, you will understand why it must be that way.

 

well thanks (i think) a third time, but i would still like to read a good book on it.

 

hhahaha since the only thing you know about me is what i type on taobums, your judgement about me not being ready is, well, worthless. You should at least charge people a lot of money before you dispense with guru-ish drivel like that!

Edited November 26, 2011 by anamatva

[Sloppy Zhang]

hhahaha since the only thing you know about me is what i type on taobums, your judgement about me not being ready is, well, worthless. You should at least charge people a lot of money before you dispense with guru-ish drivel like that!

 

You can learn a lot about people from what they type on the taobums

[konchog uma]

You can learn a lot about people from what they type on the taobums

 

evidently! hahah

[konchog uma]

BTW - I have the Livia Kohn book and just want to alert people it is a very dense/scholarly book. Not at all like any other Taoist Alchemy book I own. But still there's much in it worth checking out.

 

thanks

[Informer]

A book I found that seems to correlate with many of my experiences in this regard is called Taoist Yoga: Alchemy & Immortality by Lu K'uan Yu (Charles Luk)

[Informer]

You begin with the spirit finding the yu ting or the original cavity of the spirit, aka essential nature, third eye, precious cauldron, awakening.

[konchog uma]

A book I found that seems to correlate with many of my experiences in this regard is called Taoist Yoga: Alchemy & Immortality by Lu K'uan Yu (Charles Luk)

 

thanks. I have seen that book for years but never read it. I appreciate it.

 

$5.50 on amazon, its on its way to my house, thank you again

Edited November 26, 2011 by anamatva

[9th]

evidently! hahah

 

[konchog uma]

You begin with the spirit finding the yu ting or the original cavity of the spirit, aka essential nature, third eye, precious cauldron, awakening.

 

is that the mud pill point? yang jwing ming helped me find that.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Cleary's "Vitality, Energy, Spirit: A Taoist Source Book" might be of interest to you on this. It's more of a Northern school approach, but has some excellent teaching about giving up self and knowing Tao. I think this is a huge part of refining Qi into Shen, is leaving the self out of it so that the Shen can shine naturally.

 

"The Book of Balance and Harmony" is also an invaluable book for this Northern style. By Northern school, I mean that they were less focused on water methods of cultivation, but no less on Oneness with Tao. There is not so much about breathing or moving in different ways, but they do have methods involving intent and mind which relate to jing qi and shen.

[konchog uma]

Cleary's "Vitality, Energy, Spirit: A Taoist Source Book" might be of interest to you on this. It's more of a Northern school approach, but has some excellent teaching about giving up self and knowing Tao. I think this is a huge part of refining Qi into Shen, is leaving the self out of it so that the Shen can shine naturally.

 

"The Book of Balance and Harmony" is also an invaluable book for this Northern style. By Northern school, I mean that they were less focused on water methods of cultivation, but no less on Oneness with Tao. There is not so much about breathing or moving in different ways, but they do have methods involving intent and mind which relate to jing qi and shen.

 

cool, thanks!

 

a lot of the buddhist work i do involves shen by another name, and a lot of the alchemy i have already accomplished, like some of the refinement from jing to qi, has taken root and blossomed. Like i said in another thread, i'm on or around day 50 since my last ejaculation, and its not even an issue. I just broke an 8 day fast tonight, but while i was meditating this week, i felt compelled to discover the steps to help along the alchemy of qi to shen. If its anything like the alchemy of jing to qi, yes it happens on its own, but there are definitely things one can do to enable the process!! So i have a grasp on shen as a concept, and i have qi to work with, but i am wondering how does one work with shen? Does one visualize it? Does one just refine the qi to subtlety and shen is naturally what happens? Does one feel shen? Or is it more than one IS shen and its like water to a fish? [edit: i also wonder is there an alchemy that takes place at the MDT that i should focus on in meditation?]

 

My qigong teacher says jing qi and shen are just one thing really like water makes steam and ice too, so maybe its just a matter of refining it to subtlety and letting it become consciousness essence. I don't know. Hmm.

 

Well that wasn't directed at you HE as much as at everyone else here, in an attempt to help you help me. I am still waiting to talk to my qigong teacher, and probably just work in an auxiliary sense from books, but i haven't been able to yet, and won't til wednesday. I'll post what he says here!

Edited November 27, 2011 by anamatva

[Aetherous]

Hey bro,

 

We all value good discussion here...and this place is moderated. Careful with what you say.

 

May you receive the blessings of the Tao.

[konchog uma]

HEY COCKSUCKER!! DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE! DIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

thanks for the laugh!!! :D

 

youre gonna get banned before your account is 24 hours old! hahaha do you think i give a shit what you think about me?

 

HAHAHA grow up and learn some manners.

[konchog uma]

uh bloodywarrior, i fear that you are um decreasing the quality of conversation here buddy.

 

on the upside, i am having a hard time stopping my laughter! thank you so much!!! many blessings!

[Trunk]

~~~ TTBs Moderation Team ~~~

uh bloodywarrior, i fear that you are um decreasing the quality of conversation here buddy.

 

on the upside, i am having a hard time stopping my laughter! thank you so much!!! many blessings!

 

BW has been moved to the "Banned" group.

 

- Trunk

 

~~~ Mod Squad out ~~~

 

[Protector]

um, how about all the leftovers?

[konchog uma]

thanks trunk

[Informer]

is that the mud pill point? yang jwing ming helped me find that.

 

You lost me at "mud pill" x.x

 

[Aetherous]

Niwan/upper dantien...where basically shen is converted to emptiness.

 

So i have a grasp on shen as a concept, and i have qi to work with, but i am wondering how does one work with shen?

 

Calm the heart, so the shen isn't disturbed. Pure awareness and bliss of your true nature, instead of emotional states of mind.

 

Otherwise, I think how you work with shen is by using it to reveal your true empty nature, which is more upper dantien work. That's how shen is used. In the same way 'working with qi' is by refining it to shen, through middle dantien work. And working with jing is by refining it to qi at the lower dantien.

 

Qi is refined to a higher vibrational state experientially, which is essentially awareness itself created through the subtle physiology of the body...through middle dantien work. Emotions can be brought up with this...so you calm the heart through various methods (besides just waiting for it to pass), to maintain pure awareness/bliss of true nature.

 

Then with your awareness and bliss you work the upper dantien, and gain those effects (emptiness of true nature), which are more mystical and interesting.

 

The effect isn't simply upward...it goes in both directions (always, no matter the method)...on the way down, replenishing and condensing. Best to work all three dantiens!!!

 

"When the contents of the lower tan-t'ien move to the middle tan-t'ien, generative energy (ching) is transmuted into vital energy (ch'i); when the contents of the middle tan-t'ien move to the lower tan-t'ien, vital energy is used to produce generative energy; when the contents of the middle tan-t'ien move to the upper tan-t'ien, vital energy is transmuted into spirit energy (shen); and when the contents of the upper tan-t'ien move to the middle tan-t'ien, spirit energy is used to produce vital energy."

 

-Eva Wong from the Translator's Introduction section of her book, The Tao of Health, Longevity and Immortality

 

Does one visualize it?

 

Well, in Michael Saso's book Gold Pavilion (a translation of huang ting jing), it's visualized. From what I remember, it's described as a red robed individual that you visualize. Saso was taught a color meditation, in which the bright red color is used to pacify emotions at the heart (this is just a small aspect of that method).

 

Does one just refine the qi to subtlety and shen is naturally what happens?

 

I think so, but at some point you must stop experiencing it as qi in order for this to take place. Where is the gap between what qi and awareness are? Awareness is such a high vibration that we tend to not even perceive it as energy anymore.

 

These three things are always one (in Jade Emperor's Mind Seal it's said that they are inseparable, the supreme medicine), but by doing different methods, the separate aspects of that one thing can be ascertained.

 

I guess the explanation for all of Taoist alchemy: it's more complex and simple than we can say.

 

Does one feel shen?

 

If you can feel what it is to be awake. Also there is the blissful aspect...which isn't like joy. It's a subtle bliss that comes from nowhere, for no reason besides existing...it's like love...if you have a good sense of who you are (I don't mean this in a self enquiry way, but in a way of how you view yourself), then it's most closely related to that. This bliss is revealed through becoming accustomed to deep relaxation and surrendering.

 

My qigong teacher says jing qi and shen are just one thing really like water makes steam and ice too, so maybe its just a matter of refining it to subtlety and letting it become consciousness essence. I don't know. Hmm.

 

This is true...and you can experience these various transformations in the body. For instance when you feel qi, you might feel vibrations like ripples on a pond, or movement. When you feel it converting to shen you will feel warm steam rising in the body (the qi being transmuted). When you feel void, the shen is even more like gas that penetrates the entire body, which at some point turns into the energy which is the body being the same as the surroundings (emptiness), revealing that the body and surroundings as well as your consciousness are essentially made out of this one material (Tao)...that there is no separation, yet there is.

 

Speaking about this is pointless...it can be experienced.

 

Just some things to ponder, based on my experiences...I don't claim to actually know what I'm talking about, thankfully.

[Cameron]

Good stuff Scotty

 

btw I think one of the best teachings(of many) I got from Max wasn't just all the cool energetic work. But watching him carefully and humbly sweeping his porch after class.