Taoism and Karma

[Marblehead]

@ Marblehead...

 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know I do not speak for the Religious or Alchemic Taoists. My ignorance would quickly show if I ever attempted to do so. Hehehe.

[fiveelementtao]

Chi Dragon,

I am going to challenge you on your understanding of Taoism. You have regularly stated some of your generalized assumptions in various threads concerning your belief of taoism. But, much of what you say is in sharp contrast to traditional religious taoism which is very different from western philosophical Taoism and Western "energy" taoism.

 

I think that most westerners and even most people on this forum who think they know what "taoism" is would be very shocked to find out that Traditional Religious Taoism is very similar to most other traditional indigenous polytheist religions. One feature of all indigenous polytheist religions is the worship of ancestors, the belief in reincarnation and the effect of ones actions in life. Just becuase Taoists do not use the sanskrit word "karma," does not mean that they do not believe in it.

The Westernized philosophical Taoism that is most prevalent in books and on the web ( and on this forum) are not representative of traditional Taoism and is a relatively new Western phenomenon...

 

Chidragon,

if you have experience in a traditional religious Taoist sect or lineage, please state some references for your beliefs.

 

I do have some experience in a very old and traditional Religious Taoist Sect and I can tell you that they are very deeply involved in ancestor worship and with the belief of Karma (although they may use different words for it), destiny and rebirth.

 

Taoism is the evolution of indigenous Chinese Folk religion and shamanism. What people read in books concerning the philosophical aspects of Tao Te Ching will not teach anyone about the older folk religion aspects that are very powerfully represented in traditional Folk taoism, mystical taoism and religious taoism.

 

It is important to remember that the Taoist monasteries and Temples that are responsible for our modern understanding of Taoism came directly from earlier Folk versions of Shamanic practices.

 

The Shang Ch'ing Monastery on Mao Shan mountain was probably the most influential monastery in terms of the early spread of Taoism as a religion. The founders of the Shang Ch'ing sect received their revelations from a deceased immortal ancestor. So, the whole idea of modern Taosim would not even exist were it nor for ancestor Worship.

 

Taoist believes to be an immortal was, mainly, not to be concerned with the present life and after death.

If you study more about this concept of immortality according to traditional religious Taoism, then you will find that the only way someone can become an immortal is because they have earned that right through many lifetimes of spiritual practices. In other words, according to traditional religious Taoism, one cannot become an immortal unless the gods have decreed that it is that person's destiny to become an immortal. In other words, Karma is responsible for anyone becoming a Taoist immortal...

 

 

I believe that you had been confused with the Buddhist philosophy and mixed in with Taoist. The Taoist belief was emphasized to be an immortal before anything else. The part of ritual was mainly performed by Buddhists to remove the sins of the deceased, so the deceased will have a clean life to start with after reincarnation. That was all done with a recognizable fee. Some place along the line, some greedy Taoist priests designed to follow this footstep.

 

BTW A Taoist believes to be an immortal was, mainly, not to be concerned with the present life and after death. If one study about the Taoist religion, then the key word "immortal" cannot be ignored. Otherwise, one was studying something else other than the Taoist religion.

 

 

@ Marblehead...

Edited October 16, 2011 by fiveelementtao

[Protector]

Just for reference:

 

I previously mention about the ripples in the pond, but there are also oceans. Oceans are made of raindrop people and the intentions of these raindrop people create currents. One raindrop cannot move the whole ocean.

Long ago, when life expectancy was short and no one had time for anything, Taoists felt like they wont have enough years to experience all the joys of the world and reach enlightenment. The next logical thing was immortality.

These taoist raindrop people started creating currents of intention and used their chi to finding ways to live longer. Some found easier ways of creating medicine that improved health, others collected enough chi to move oceans and gain light body.

 

or so I heard

[Birch]

"Long ago, when life expectancy was short and no one had time for anything"

 

I'd check into that one :-)

[ChiDragon]

Chidragon,

if you have experience in a traditional religious Taoist sect or lineage, please state some references for your beliefs.

 

First of all, let me point out the difference in the two languages. One says one thing and the other says something else. That was how all the confusion came about. The English speaking person only understand the English part but there was not an easier way that they can comprehend and absorb the source of the origin.

 

Here are two Wikipedia sites, one in English and the other in Chinese. I can assure you that they are not saying the same thing. Thus that is where the something gets lost in the Translation.

 

Taoism in English:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism

 

Taoist religion(道教) in Chinese:

http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/%E9%81%93%E6%95%99

 

If I translate the original source, then, it would be completely different than what you had already known. Should we try one thought at time to make it easier to explain and give me a chance to translate my source. In any of the Chinese sources, there was not a word mentioned about karma.

 

FYI The part of ancestor worshiping was done by the common people, who believe in Taoism but not the actual Taoists, in local temples. While the actual Taoists themselves have their own shrine, called 道觀, to cultivate their Taoist religious beliefs. This was depicted in the Chinese reference above.

 

I want to point out the fact that ancestor worshiping was a traditional Chinese custom but not a Taoist ritual.

Edited October 16, 2011 by ChiDragon

[fiveelementtao]

In any of the Chinese sources, there was not a word mentioned about karma.

That does not mean that it isn't taught in Taoist teachings.

karma literally means "actions" or "deeds"

I feel very confident that most Taoist teachings say something about the consequences of ones actions and deeds in their life.

 

 

There are also many different sects of Taoism. So, when it comes to some things, one cannot simply make broad generalized statements about what is "Taoist." This is the problem with written information. There is also the personal transmission of teachings which cannot be found easily. What you say may be true for some sects and lineages but not true for others.

 

There is a big difference between what one reads about Taoism or sees in public rituals or public temples and what one experiences in some of the more esoteric mystical lineage practices. (which is where Tao "ism" has it's roots.

 

I want to point out the fact that ancestor worshiping was a traditional Chinese custom but not a Taoist ritual.

According to whom?

In many Taoist mystical sects if one wants to gain real mystical power, it is essential that one get transmissions directly from the ancestors. Without it, one cannot make significant progress. This kind of ritual won't be written down in books or found in most temples.

 

What many people call "folk" Taoism is extremely powerful stuff. What is seen in most public temples (according to my teachers) is very watered down stuff and does not represent the most ancient of Taoist traditions.

 

I would counter that the more widespread "Taoism" that replaced the Folk shamanic practices got much of it's influence from the integration of Ch'an (Zen) Buddhism. The trend to "evolve" beyond the the "primitive" folk taoism is a result of later Chinese Taoism trying to become more mainstream and compete with Buddhism.

 

So, trying to distance Taoism from Buddhism is Ironic, because the same factors that you are stating to separate Taoism from Buddhism in this instance are coming from later Buddhist influence on Imperial taoist sects...

 

Much of what you say is true in much of Taoism, So I am not trying to say you are 100% wrong. But my problem with some of what I read in your posts is that sometimes your statements are very broad and generalized and while they may be true in some instances. They are also not true in others.... Traditional Taoism is a very diverse path with many different streams...

Edited October 16, 2011 by fiveelementtao

[C T]

I concur fully with 5ET's observations.

 

Here's a YT channel containing various clips of Taoist rites, rituals and ceremonial proceedings relating to ancestral worship and funeral rites. http://www.youtube.com/user/Lidaozhang?blend=15&ob=5

 

Some random clips of same - -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWjONCAxTzw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByTOeaL0PiQ&feature=related

 

There are scores of other clips available, but Chi Dragon hopefully gets the drift. I could further make a case here in relation to how he has ignorantly said i was confusing Buddhist and Taoist funeral practices but there's no need ~ let the vids speak for themselves.

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. So do Y'all see why I don't get involved in such discussions?

[Kali Yuga]

Hehehe. So do Y'all see why I don't get involved in such discussions?

Hehe, it's all good man. no harm done as long as no one takes it personally, its nice though to see the different views coming out. Since I'm not too sure on the whole taoism and karma thing its better to get the opinions of those who know better than I do. Some good will probably come of it.

 

Even though the folks here on the thread do not concur at the moment with ChiDragon, I appreciate that he's been straight-up with what he knows, and has been the first one on the thread to objectively take a stab at my question. I might learn quite a few things on this thread about traditional taoism vs the "popular taoism" that I first studied.

[ChiDragon]

That does not mean that it isn't taught in Taoist teachings.

karma literally means "actions" or "deeds"

I feel very confident that most Taoist teachings say something about the consequences of ones actions and deeds in their life.

 

There are also many different sects of Taoism. So, when it comes to some things, one cannot simply make broad generalized statements about what is "Taoist." This is the problem with written information. There is also the personal transmission of teachings which cannot be found easily. What you say may be true for some sects and lineages but not true for others.

 

The term "Karma" was originated for India. However, the Chinese Buddhist interpreted as a recycle of life(輪迴, lun2 hui2). Let's not judge who is right or wrong but just exchange ideas in our cultural difference.

 

The reason I said Karma is a Buddhist term was because it has to do with the human conduct during one's life time. The philosophy of a Chinese Buddhist is heavily emphasized that a person must be good as a whole at all times. For being a good person means that not to kill anything that is alive and be kind to others. Thus that's why the Buddha is a vegetarian. The Buddhist believes that if one kills a pig, then he may became a pig after reincarnation. Another example, if one treat others bad, he will be treated the same way or worse in his next life.

 

To a Chinese Taoist, everything was in accordance with "Wu Wei", just being natural. He believes in longevity and immortal. An immortal has no after life. Hence, a Taoist does not have to concern with the Karma as a Buddhist does.

 

PS...

This is only referenced to my understanding of the original beliefs of both the Chinese Taoist religion and Buddhism. It may be contradicted to the western Taoist beliefs.

[ChiDragon]

In regarding to the rituals between the Buddhist and Taoist religion. There is a difference in purpose between the two religions. The ancestor worshiping was not really considered to be part of the actual practice for both religions. Those rituals are a service provided for the common people only for economical reasons.

 

Here are the difference in funeral services:

1. The Buddhist do it for removing the sins of the deceased to have a clean start for the next life.

 

2. The Taoist do it for the deceased to have peace and to easy the mind of the offspring.

 

3. The offspring, sometimes, brings gifts to the deceased but they need to have the Taoist to perform a ritual for that.

Edited October 16, 2011 by ChiDragon

[XieJia]

@Chidragon

 

I don't doubt your understanding of Daoism, but I think it will also be nice if you would try to understand the Buddhist more in this matter; if we are not careful some might taken offense.

As a Daoist, I don't think we could claim any superior of the Way. For the Way nourishes all things.

 

--------------

 

Guides to Karma/ Cause and Effect of two paths

 

The Buddhist's Path;

Accept good seeds, Reject planting the bad ones, Accept Bad fruits as lessons, Reject getting stuck on the Good fruits. Becomes Buddhas through wisdom of accepting and rejecting.

 

The Daoist's Path;

Accept bad seeds, Accept good seeds, Accept good fruits, Accept bad fruits.

Becomes Immortals through wisdom of accepting.

 

---------------

Any mistakes is my own.

 

All be Well...

[C T]

The term "Karma" was originated for India. However, the Chinese Buddhist interpreted as a recycle of life(輪迴, lun2 hui2). Let's not judge who is right or wrong but just exchange ideas in our cultural difference.

 

The reason I said Karma is a Buddhist term was because it has to do with the human conduct during one's life time. The philosophy of a Chinese Buddhist is heavily emphasized that a person must be good as a whole at all times. For being a good person means that not to kill anything that is alive and be kind to others. Thus that's why the Buddha is a vegetarian. The Buddhist believes that if one kills a pig, then he may became a pig after reincarnation. Another example, if one treat others bad, he will be treated the same way or worse in his next life.

 

To a Chinese Taoist, everything was in accordance with "Wu Wei", just being natural. He believes in longevity and immortal. An immortal has no after life. Hence, a Taoist does not have to concern with the Karma as a Buddhist does.

 

PS...

This is only referenced to my understanding of the original beliefs of both the Chinese Taoist religion and Buddhism. It may be contradicted to the western Taoist beliefs.

Chi Dragon,

 

Not surprisingly, your understanding is shallow and off the mark.

 

Karma is not a Buddhist term.

 

Buddhists do not believe (as an example) that if one kills a pig then there is a likelihood that the pig killer will be reborn as a pig. This is sheer superstitious babble.

 

Might be wise to consider putting an end to your spreading of half-truths and misleading other readers and forum members.

 

A suggestion ~ Nothing wrong with asking questions of others instead of always trying to show how much of an authority you are regarding Taoist/Buddhist practices and custom.

[Protector]

Excuse me... one second... what was that word... oh right, Hinduism

[ChiDragon]

@Chidragon

As a Daoist, I don't think we could claim any superior of the Way. For the Way nourishes all things.

 

---------------

Any mistakes is my own.

 

All be Well...

 

I am only pointing out the difference between the two religions, no one has claimed any superiority over one another. Please read carefully, my friend....

[ChiDragon]

Chi Dragon,

 

Not surprisingly, your understanding is shallow and off the mark.

 

Karma is not a Buddhist term.

 

Buddhists do not believe (as an example) that if one kills a pig then there is a likelihood that the pig killer will be reborn as a pig. This is sheer superstitious babble.

 

Might be wise to consider putting an end to your spreading of half-truths and misleading other readers and forum members.

 

A suggestion ~ Nothing wrong with asking questions of others instead of always trying to show how much of an authority you are regarding Taoist/Buddhist practices and custom.

 

Beliefs has no truth. BTW I am an atheist. I think things are getting to be too personal now. I will stop.

[XieJia]

I am only pointing out the difference between the two religions, no one has claimed any superiority over one another. Please read carefully, my friend....

 

Ok, my bad; apologies. My friend.

 

Sorry.

 

Lets leave Buddhism out of this; I think we should just get back on Kali's question.

 

@Marblehead

You are the clever one here. Don't let me find you hehehe.

Edited October 16, 2011 by XieJia

[XieJia]

@Kali

May I ask you to read about 'Wuwei' up?

Or look at chapter 2 or discussion we have here on chapter 74, 77, of the Dao De Jing.

There are particular reason to why the Daoist cultivate virtue through Wuwei.

 

From my limited perspectives;

The Taoist text didn't mentioned the Concept of 'Karma'

But the practice of cultivating virtue through the way is in itself breaking the link.

 

All the best to everyone.

[Marblehead]

 

@Marblehead

You are the clever one here. Don't let me find you hehehe.

 

Hehehe.

 

But it is true that there needs be those willing to discuss religions because it is an important part of many peoples' life. I just don't talk about them often because I don't like any of them. Hehehe.

[ChiDragon]

Hehehe.

 

But it is true that there needs be those willing to discuss religions because it is an important part of many peoples' life. I just don't talk about them often because I don't like any of them. Hehehe.

 

I'm neutral about them but like to study them.........hehehehe.

Edited October 16, 2011 by ChiDragon

[fiveelementtao]

To a Chinese Taoist...

From which sect at which time in history?

 

This is what I mean. I would prefer you cite specifics when you make these very broad generalized statements. Chinese Taoists are just as vulnerable to making mistakes based on limited understanding as anyone else. I do completely agree with you that Western Taoists are vulnerable to making mistakes, but as I said, what is ironic to me is that your mistakes are from doing the same thing from a Chinese perspective. i.e. Making broad, generalized authoritative statements that are not always true in every sect of taoism. It may be true according to your sources or your experience, but there are other authentic viewpoints besides yours. I have experience in a tradition that can be traced all the way back to the inception of Taoism as a religion. My tradition left China before the communist takeover and according to my teachers. Taoism in China today is very different than before WWII. So, if someone makes generalizations based on post WWII Taoism, there will be big differences.

 

In traditional taoism, there is the outer door teachings and the inner door teachings. Outer door teahings are for the layman and inner door teachings are for the initiate. Many times what is taught to the laymen is sometimes very different than for the initiate. What is found in books (both in China and the West) is mostly laymen teachings. So, I am saying that one cannot make generalizations about what is "Taoist" by simply repeating one of the version of a teaching.

 

Chi dragon, I think you would get better responses if you said things like, "from what I've read Taoism says XXX" Instead of speaking authoritatively for all Taoism when you say, "Taoism says XXX"

 

I think you would get less argument if you allowed room for other versions...

[ChiDragon]

From which sect at which time in history?

 

Chi dragon, I think you would get better responses if you said things like, "from what I've read Taoism says XXX" Instead of speaking authoritatively for all Taoism when you say, "Taoism says XXX"

 

I think you would get less argument if you allowed room for other versions...

 

fiveelementtao....

 

Before we go any further, in your own words, may I hear from you that how the Taoist religion was found to begin with. What did they teach you before while you were in China...??? Thanks....

 

PS...

Can you tell me why the Taoist religion was formed...???

Edited October 16, 2011 by ChiDragon

[konchog uma]

I was not asking for personal advice as so many of you have given. I merely am curious to what the tradition of Taoism has to say about karma and reincarnation and if it believed in such things, to what extent. No more, no less.

 

Master Hua-Ching Ni talks a lot in his books about how spiritual progress can improve the events that one manifests for oneself. He says that as a person carries less weight or darkness in them, that better things will happen to them. So that is like karma. But it is not based on the cycle of action/reaction that buddhist karma is based on, it is more based on energetic resonance it seems. So more in the present moment, as was mentioned, but i think that his thinking relates to the question you are asking.

[fiveelementtao]

fiveelementtao....

 

Before we go any further, in your own words, may I hear from you that how the Taoist religion was found to begin with. What did they teach you before while you were in China...??? Thanks....

 

PS...

Can you tell me why the Taoist religion was formed...???

 

Chi Dragon, My main point was that you could share your understandings with more flexibility and allow for other interpretations. But, I will answer your questions as I have been taught by my teachers and have confirmed for myself through personal practice and through written sources. No doubt you may have a different understanding and wish to fight about it. I will not do that. But, others may be interested in the discussion.

 

I didn't study in China. But as I said, there are many in China today who do not know about the different sects of Taoism that existed before WWII because the Chinese Gov't has done a very good job of rewriting history to fit their political agendas... As you may well know the Taoism that is practiced on the famous Taoist mountains in China today are new versions placed there by the Chinese Communist Gov't. The priests on those mountains are educated by the communist Gov't. They do not represent the original priesthoods that were there before WWII. Many of the priest are trying to reconstruct their sects through old manuscripts. So, While there are Taoists in China , many of them do not have any direct connection to he original practices that were taught in those monasteries.

 

The first organized Taoist religion as I understand it has it's roots in Chinese Shamanism which goes back thousands of years. The first organized Taoist sect was the Sect of the Celestial Masters which was founded in 142 C.E. One of the Initiates of the Celestial Masters was a woman named Lady Wei who died and became a Taoist Immortal. After she died, she appeared to her descendents, one of whom was named Yang Xi in the 4th century A.D. to whom she gave some revelations for achieving immortality. These revelations became known as the Shang Ch'ing scriptures. eventually these scriptures were collated by Tao Hong Jing on Mao Shan.

 

These descendents of Lady Wei went to Mao Shan Mountain to practice their Family Style Which was called "Shang Ch'ing Tao. or "Way of Highest Purity". This was only meant to be a Family lineage. But, some of the practitioners let their scriptures get out and non-initiates got their hands on them and tried to practice the what was in those scriptures. When word got out about the Shang Ch'ing scriptures many people tried to enter the Mao Shan monastery.

 

After many years, because the Shang Ch'ing scriptures had been forged and many people had heard of the reputation, eventually, the Mao Shan monastery had to officially become a Religious Monastery. That is the second phase of the organized version of "Taoism." Almost every recongnized sect of Taoism can trace it's knowledge back to Mao Shan and the Shang Ch'ing sect. If it were not for the Shang Ch'ing there may not have ever been an official Taoist religion. Instead it would be a bunch of loosely connected family and village traditions. That is also one of my main points. There are many secret Family and Village styles of taoist Shamanism. Some of these family traditions are so powerful that they are still secret. These are the true sources of the Original Mystical Taoist practices that are the forerunners of organized Taoist religious sects... Many of the official religious sects are just watered down versions of the family and village traditions. One of the reasons for the organized sects of Taoism is to keep the family styles hidden and undiluted...

 

As to why the Taoist religion was formed. In the case of the Shang Ch'ing sect it was because the scriptures had been stolen and forged and so many people were trying to practice them that eventually the true practitioners decided that it was better that the knowledge be officially consolidated into one religion so that they could disseminate the practices accurately. This is where we get the Layman style teachings found in many official taoist monasteries and the hidden inner door teachings that are kept private from the public. Much of what is in the public temples and monasteries are outer door layman style teachings. That is what is in most history books.

 

If it weren't for the fact that the Shang Ch'ing scriptures had been stolen and forged, it is very possible that the information would have been kept secretly in the Family tradition. If it weren't for that reason there many not even BE a Taoist religion.

 

I was taught from a family tradition that can trace it's origin to one of the Five Taoist Mountains. This knowledge was taken out of China before WWII. I am not an initiate and I do not have authority to speak for this tradition, so I only share what little info I do have in this general way. Take it for what that is worth to you...

Edited October 16, 2011 by fiveelementtao

[Enishi]

Action/reaction is the linear understanding most people are used to. It's understandable that Buddha and other spiritual teachers would have described things in that manner for the majority.

 

Resonance is definitely a better description though. The process of improving one's resonance can be quite painful however, just that the detox affect can happen during meditation, instead of affecting your finances and other external issues. >.<