thelerner Posted September 17, 2006 We've been touching on this in the discussion on 32 signs of Buddha and other discussions slip into it. I see the Mystery School on one end. A materialistic mechanical view on the other. Our personal power and outlook lies within the spectrum. Â By Mystery School, I'm looking at the strange bedfellows of Fundamental religious and new age beliefs. Where everything is controlled or watched by higher power. Complete control happening, either from God, a universal force or our own godhood. Versus a more modern, nihilistic approach, where there is no controller, watcher or higher force. Only a myriad of influences that we think of as patterns and give names to. Â Michael Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wayfarer64 Posted September 17, 2006 This is alot like some of the other questions on other threads here at the Bums...It may be that you want an answer to the BIG questions that thinking questioning folks have been looking to answer over the Millenia. If we can answer them here then its NOBEL Prize time for the Tao Bums as a collective... If I can write my answer in such a way that the Faith I have in Reason is satisfied AND the Reasons I have for Faith are supported ; then perhaps my many paths among the larger path of THE Tao will be justified... As it is I still stick to a relationship between my meager understanding of Quantum machanics and the nameless-wordless Tao to fill in my blanks and give me my sense of the BIG picture.... I find each and every moment to hold an opportunity for eternity to shine through and take my being else-wheres and everywhere, anywhere. So I will ask what is the difference between anywhere, everywhere and nowhere? For me the concept of nowhere is the hardest to grasp. Is the only nowhere a "somewhere" just before the "Big Bang"? I just hope that we each can find our own place and answer... each unique and valued as a truth among this vast expance of change's mighty realm..may yr space/time continuum give you the blessing of peace of mind. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoda Posted September 17, 2006 Our personal power and outlook lies within the spectrum.   Cool post!  I had bought a book of psychological tests and there was one that tested for this belief. In theory, I test at 100% self control with 0% being controlled by others, parents, spouses, children, circumstances, luck, bosses, gov't etc, with those being the usual suspects. God wasn't mentioned in my test, but I'm sure he could weigh in on either side of the debate. People tend to rate their lives as 50% within their own power and 50% under outside power give or take.  The blurb said that happiness, health, success, etc is correlated with higher personal power scores. Of course, correlation doesn't mean causation, but that's all you can go on with social sciences.  Imo, it's challenging for us philosophical types to get near the sensation of 100% personal power over your life unless you buy into reincarnation which would devictimize the particular circumstances one is born into.  Furthermore, it's also hard to approach the sensation of 100% personal power if you buy too hard into reincarnation as then you'd feel victimized by your past. So that's why I'm a big fan of the new agey conscious creation in the moment school a la Esther, etc.  Most people who achieve the sensation of near 100% personal control over their lives, or an aspect of their lives, really do so by discovering the power of mental focus to magically achieve their ends. Daddy Yoda is a big league corporate litigator and he definitely has this belief system in place in this aspect of life without any particular religious or philosophical ideas needed, although he does say, when pressed, that his belief that he wins every case does have some mystic/voodoo components, but isn't tied to any branded philosophy.  Cool topic. My book is in deep storage right now, but I'll try to Google for an online test.  -Yoda  Here's a "locus of control" test I found by searching for psychological tests:  http://www.psych.uncc.edu/pagoolka/LC.html  just google locus of control test and they will all come up.  Nice thread idea!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted September 18, 2006 Hey Yoda, on your test I scored a 5, which means higher locus of belief in ones personal power vs belief in luck and randomness. (Locus is their word not mine)  I think there is more power and certainly more comfort in believing in an intelligent compassionate powerful being in the Universe, but while I strive to believe in more, I don't think I do at the gut level. I intuit that a persons strong focused belief can somehow change the odds of an event happening. Yet on an intellectual level I see that as childish.  My best metaphor of life is a poker game. You are given a hand of cards, try to make the best of it, new cards come and go. I don't know if the dealer is on automatic or not.  When I've been to Vegas I play black jack. I'm smart enough to know that I'm not going to win, that I'm basically throwing up a coin, head I win, tails not. Slowly the house percentage catches up with you and lose. But when I find a good table, there is great comraderie there, cheering and solace as the coin flips, that is the good part and why I play what is essentially a suckers game.  Personally I don't like quantum arguments in philosophy. Quantumness might effect us if we're atom size, but us biggies don't seem to follow quantum madness, we have our own. Despite all the emptiness making up my hand and vast emptiness of this table, wallah my hand hits every time and doesnt go through.  Unfortunatelly the real secrets of a movie like 'What the Bleep do we Know' is Special Effects. Turn the camera off, bring in the FX guys, then turn it on again.  I believe that there is only one world. That it can be recorded and its there whether we see it or not. The tape recorder hears the sound of the falling tree (unless its hit by it). But each human being interprets the one reality in there own way with there own filters.  Maybe the whole point of Zen is reality like cigarrettes is best unfiltered. Those damn smoking monks  later  Michael Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hagar Posted September 18, 2006 Control? Â We have absolutely no control. Â The only thing that is certain is that the Universe thrives on chaos. No chaos, no life. Â I can't control much. A highly realized adept may be able to read minds, control his heartrate, emit chi, etc, etc. But in the big picture, it's laughably insignificant. Â I do think the most control we can have is when we act out of selflessness, i.e without the intent of control at all. Willpower is highly overrated. The moment we really give up, we have control. Â What is left when we just sit and experience the inner and outer world? We experience events coming and passing by, leaving or not leaving a trace. What we make of this is what we may call "The world". Truth is in the eye of the beholder. Â Now that sounded pretentious didn't it? Â h Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoda Posted September 18, 2006 Y'all are out of control! I got a 2... just goes to show, that tests aren't perfect! I want to live the "1" lifestyle!! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trunk Posted September 18, 2006 I see the Mystery School on one end. A materialistic mechanical view on the other. Our personal power and outlook lies within the spectrum. I feel that reality is multi-layered, and different layers have different rules of play. How the world works for you has a lot to do with which layer/s you're at play in, which has everything to do with your current configuration. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trunk Posted September 18, 2006 .. and, the basis for friendship is overlapping realities. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wayfarer64 Posted September 18, 2006 Hey I scored a 3 -so we are each on the low end....of the 1-13 scale -so far... I could have mainipulated the score easily, had I wished to get a lower or higher score, and the options were not very realistic in some intances, but I have seldom given tests a high score in grading human behaviors there is usually a bias built in... I may take it two more times to see how high/low I can score... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoda Posted September 18, 2006 I'm sure there are better locus of control tests out there than that one. Â But each belief system definitely carries its own reality from Daddy Yoda who couldn't lose a case even if all the Buddhas of the ten directions rose up against him to the new ager who gets assaulted by each passing chemtrail. People's beliefs are definitely really real. So why not believe something fun? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ToP-fan Posted September 18, 2006 I agree and disagree with you all !! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted September 19, 2006 I kinda like Trunks answer- :I feel that reality is multi-layered, and different layers have different rules of play. How the world works for you has a lot to do with which layer/s you're at play in, which has everything to do with your current configuration. - but wonder where it comes from. Â Personal experiential insight or observances, daily or otherwise. Â Michael 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
minimoke Posted September 19, 2006 Â Furthermore, it's also hard to approach the sensation of 100% personal power if you buy too hard into reincarnation as then you'd feel victimized by your past. So that's why I'm a big fan of the new agey conscious creation in the moment school a la Esther, etc. Â Â Â Yoda? When you speak of Esther, are you speaking of Esther Hicks and the "Abraham Tapes"? Â http://www.abraham-hicks.com/ Â Thanks for all your posts man. Â Bruce Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoda Posted September 19, 2006 Bruce Almighty, That's my girl! Â ~~~ Â Â Â Philosophically, if one believes that one has 100% control over one's experience (like control freaks like me gotta have) then to make the system fly you have to explain where all these other mofos come from... Essentially, one attracts the people that one is vibrationally aligned with... It's Sid and Nancy, not Sid and Cher, for instance. If this is true then, essentially, Sid "created" Nancy as far as he's concerned. Â Once I learned that, my marriage improved 1,000%... if I wanted to improve our at-the-time poor relationship I didn't have to sit around for Mrs Yoda to be nicer, etc... I could do it singlehandedly. Once I began to raise my vibration on the subject of marriage, she had two choices: she could follow my lead or she could drift out of my life. Most of the time, people just follow your lead if you have acheived a stable higher vibration. That was the case here. Mrs Yoda doesn't buy into any of this Esther business, but none of that's necessary for the system to work just fine. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeform Posted September 19, 2006 I believe that there is only one world. That it can be recorded and its there whether we see it or not. The tape recorder hears the sound of the falling tree (unless its hit by it). But each human being interprets the one reality in there own way with there own filters. Â Hey Michael... I've got a different belief to you regarding this (although I used to have exactly your belief). So let me demonstrate how my former belief changed... it might be entertaining to play with?! Â so you say the tape recorder records the sound of the tree falling!... who hears the tape recorder to verify that it recorded something!!!??? Â My point is that no matter how many instruments we lay out to 'record' reality for us - we still have to check the instruments in the end not even mentioning that we have to design the instrument and the way it works and the way it records and the way it comunicates its information back to us - reality is only ever percieved subjectively!! Â I actually lied when I said that's my belief - I tend to prefer to try on different beliefs for different uses. Sometimes I do believe that there is an objectivity to the world - but I dont believe that any one person/instrument/model/philosophy/religion/word etc can cover all of it! I believe the only instrument that can come close to experiencing 'objectivity' directly is the most sensitive instrument in the universe - our own body... ofcourse the mind needs to dealt with so that our illusions and behavioural patterns dont cloud the view of reality... Â This is how quantum mechanics relates to our everiday life... the fact is that we experience the world through five senses and our specific ways of filtering the sensory information into something that makes sense. We're grabbing little impressions of 'objective reality' and translating them into 'human' (first) and then 'Michael' or 'Yoda' or 'freeform' second. If we used echo-location like bats, we would be grabbing a different sample of the objective universe - the number of possible samples may be infinite. Â That's what QM tells us - the very act of observing something morphs it to the constraints of the observer. Â This is the beginning of working out reality - after that whatever model you use to describe reality is only there to make life easier - whether it's Taoist cosmology or Hindu or Buddhist or mathematical/sacred geometry or sound waves etc... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trunk Posted September 19, 2006 I kinda like Trunks answer- :I feel that reality is multi-layered, and different layers have different rules of play. How the world works for you has a lot to do with which layer/s you're at play in, which has everything to do with your current configuration. - but wonder where it comes from.  Personal experiential insight or observances, daily or otherwise. Influenced by my first meditation teacher, and the Castaneda stuff, in the late 80's. The idea that it is not just one's beliefs, but the vibe that you hang out at that allows you to resonate - and act within - whatever layer of reality. "Personal power" in Castaneda's system. I saw an interview with a comediene (I forget who) and she was talking about the learning curve, and dealing with hecklers. She said that just as she got to the point where she felt she could handle any variety of heckler, no one heckled any more. Other things, like Yoda has said in this thread, about being at a vibe and what comes into your life, or how your present life arranges around you. At a really high level, reality is pretty flexible (some teachers genuinely can work miracles), but you have to have the development to be at that level. If you have the vibe of a hocky puck, you just get pushed around by life. And it is not just believing that it can be different, it's also (some say predominantly) having the "personal power". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoda Posted September 19, 2006 She said that just as she got to the point where she felt she could handle any variety of heckler, no one heckled any more. Â It's the same way in sales... when you aren't afraid of a particular objection anymore, you'll never hear it again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wayfarer64 Posted September 19, 2006 (edited) if we lose ouselves in the contemplation of the infinite greatness of the universe in space and time,meditate on the thousands of years that are past or to come,or if the heavens at night actually bring before our eyes innumerable worlds and so force upon our consciousness the immensity of the universe, we feel ourselves dwindle to nothing;as individuals,as living bodies,as trasient phenomena of will,we feel ourselves pass away and vanish into nothing like drops in the ocean but at once there rises against this ghost of our own nothing-ness,against such lying impossibility.the immediate consciousness that all these worlds exist only as our idea,only as modifications of the eternal subject of pure knowing, which we find ourselves to be as soon as we forget our individuality,and which is the necessary supporter of al worlds and all times the condition of their possibility.the vastness of the worlds which disquieted us before,rests now in us; our dependence upon it is annulled by its dependence upon us.all this,however,does not come at once into reflection,but shows it-self merely,as the felt consciousness that in some sense or other (which philosophy alone can explain) we are one with the world,and therefore not oppressed,but exalted by its immensity.---the world as idea...Schopenhauer  This is my favorite European philosopher-very Taoist in fact - please check him out as yr able  I've also been editing this quote in to many threads I've yammered on of late -  As Carl Sagan wrote in Pale Blue Dot (1994):  A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge. Edited September 19, 2006 by Wayfarer64 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hagar Posted September 20, 2006 In my view, these discussions often dodge the issue of fear. Â It seems that within ourselves, we avoid what is arbitrary, contigent and non-identical. In this way we rob ourselves the great gift of terror. This is a profound turningpoint withing all spiritual cultivation, and should be experienced in one way or the other if we are to proceed on the path. Â I urge everyone to read Freud's essay "The Uncanny", and see how the need for control is aligninging itself with the emergence of "spiritual materialism"(i.e creating a framework of ego-based assumptions around being on a spritual path and what that entails) If we embrace a spiritual belief, tradition or world-view, we tend to affirm what is comforting, and reject the disturbing. A close reading of all profound mystical experiences all include an experience of contingency and horror. Actually, to truly get a grip on a grander and more all-encompassing experience of "reality", we must let go of the pre-packaged explanations of how the world works, and how we, as agents in this world affect it. In short, we must let go of our conceptual way of experienceing. Which is really difficult. Â Captain Kurtz, in "Heart of Darkness" became the hub of the story from the fact that he understood the nature of our culture, and how conventions hide the scary truths, which almost always have nothing to do with moral or ethical worth. Â Thus, if we all speak of how we create our reality, I think all the existing self-help Gurus wisely avoid the truth. The truth about what we cannot assimilate within our understanding of ourselves and the world. I once on a retreat had a realization of how my master grasped reality in one long, painful meditation. I got really scared, because there was nothing to hold on to, no cozyness, no cuddly warmth of comfort, no "Universe that will take care of you". I caught a glimpse of a mind without concepts, with total openess. I caught a glimpse of how, if you lie on the ground on a starry night, can fall off into the universe, and get lost. Â So it's not just about facing our demons and then start to "feel good", raising our vibrations and creating our reality. THis is fine and dandy, but nothing to do with being "closer to God", or aligned with the universe. Â If we think we are in control and we constitute our reality, we must remember that the ones who tell these things to us are in the business of making money, and not telling the truth. Â Can we really handle the truth? Maybe then we are in control... Â h Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeform Posted September 20, 2006 Good post, Hagar  I agree on several points - yes we seek to control! we try to control everything! our minds, bodies, envoronment and others. It's the function of the ego. The problem is that all control is an illusion - if we start believing in our illusions we'll get stuck there and no spiritual progress will occur. We try to control because we're afraid of letting go - this fear comes about from the collection of traumas (both highs and lows) that we have experienced over our lifetimes.  Secondly about always reaching for the good/pleasure and neglecting the bad/pain - that is the best example of control - we try to hold on to the water in the flowing river of life. It works both ways - we hold on to pain as well as pleasure... we try to control our experience. The key to negotiating the ego is to discover the polarities it operates on. Take pain and pleasure for example - they're two ends of a spectrum - we want one and try to avoid the other one - so like a pendulum, we uncontrolably swing from pain to pleasure, grasping and needing. We can integrate pain and pleasure - and they become one - and we need not control it - and it just happens - we are not concerned by this polarity, and rather counter-intuitively this allows us more free will - more 'control' (of a different kind).  Once we start to integrate the polarities in our ego, we are presented with an opportunity to play! if conceptualising is of no concern - we can conceptualise and enjoy it/hate it and then let go... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thaddeus Posted September 20, 2006 Good post, Hagar  I agree on several points - yes we seek to control! we try to control everything! our minds, bodies, envoronment and others. It's the function of the ego. The problem is that all control is an illusion - if we start believing in our illusions we'll get stuck there and no spiritual progress will occur. We try to control because we're afraid of letting go - this fear comes about from the collection of traumas (both highs and lows) that we have experienced over our lifetimes.  Secondly about always reaching for the good/pleasure and neglecting the bad/pain - that is the best example of control - we try to hold on to the water in the flowing river of life. It works both ways - we hold on to pain as well as pleasure... we try to control our experience. The key to negotiating the ego is to discover the polarities it operates on. Take pain and pleasure for example - they're two ends of a spectrum - we want one and try to avoid the other one - so like a pendulum, we uncontrolably swing from pain to pleasure, grasping and needing. We can integrate pain and pleasure - and they become one - and we need not control it - and it just happens - we are not concerned by this polarity, and rather counter-intuitively this allows us more free will - more 'control' (of a different kind).  Once we start to integrate the polarities in our ego, we are presented with an opportunity to play! if conceptualising is of no concern - we can conceptualise and enjoy it/hate it and then let go... Yeah, I just came to the realization that everything is occuring in my mind. I've heard this before and understood it, but now i really know it. Everything that comes to me, I do not percieve directly, I perceive my 'stuff' that I project onto it. So I'm just seeing and reacting to all my 'stuff' rather than what, if anything, is really out there. So I have to 'stop the world', 'stop thinking', slay the dragon, non attachment, mindfulness, forgiveness, love, it's all ways of saying the same thing. What's left? I'm not really sure yet. T Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoda Posted September 20, 2006 Hagar the Viking King: Â Sure, the coffee maker breaks on the wrong day, Krishna runs off with another lover, etc but that's life no matter what your philosophy. Â The more love one feels, the more desireful one is. With some love, it's all about the coffee maker. With lots of love, it's all about Krishna. Â -Yoda Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted September 20, 2006 Hagar's post reminds me of a time I went to Washington DC. They had the Aids Quilt out that day. It was two football fields long, made up of 3x3 foot flags each personalized and representing someone who had died of aids. It was very effecting. Â Then I went to Vietnam memorial wall. It had the names but also gifts and items left on the memorial to those killed. Afterwards I went to the Holocaust mueseum there. There was the aspect of having you see the massive death at a personal level, to try to encompass the incredilble loss emotionally. Â The experience of all 3 in one day left me psychicly shaky. It drummed into me that the universe truly doesn't care if I live or die. So much death, untimely, purposeless. Â Â Michael Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wayfarer64 Posted September 20, 2006 (edited) Michael, When in DC I usually visit the Hershorn or National galleries, maybe the Aerospace and the Smithsonian... This when I can take time off from political ranting in the streets... Your day seems almost masochistic to me! I visit the Viet Nam memorial almost as a habit when in DC- but I don't think I could take in the jolt of the holocaust museum on the same day, much less while having the AIDS memorial on my mind... I don't have the phychic armour for such a day...WHY did ya go through that? I think a span of time with Lincoln or Jefferson or up in Washington's needle may have done you a bit more good or at least less traumatic harm...What were you thinking? There is a syndrome- (???name) of awe inspired other-world trance-like gawping that overcomes many folks in museums and galleries, cathedrals and monuments etc... what happened to you seems to resemble a sort of anti-inspirational trance... Edited September 20, 2006 by Wayfarer64 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoda Posted September 20, 2006 Universe doesn't care if we live or die? The universe cares very much that we die. The Grim Reaper's got a woody! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites