ChiDragon Posted August 28, 2011 There are two methods of cosmic orbit. They are Microcosmic Orbit(MCO-1) and Macrocosmic Orbit(MCO-2). I had been study MCO-1 for sometime. At first, it was so hard to understand because of the terms used by the Taoists are so esoteric. It would be more difficult to comprehend if it was translated into another language. A Taoist or Taoists, hereinafter, will be referred and understood as a Taoist(s) in the Taoist religion. The understanding of MCO-1, finally, had come to my senses. Perhaps, one might not have been explained this way by someone else. The Taoist always have the own thoughts and putted in their own language that not anybody can understand. Here is the way I understood MCO-1 as of now. The following explanation, hopefully, will clear some of the mists in the air. The MCO-1 was a system developed from the perceptive point of view of a Taoist. From the acupuncture chart in the TCM, there is a Concept Vessel(CV) and Governor Vessel(GV). Please note that Dan Tian is Taoist term but not a TCM term. Dan Tian was designated, by Taoists, as a location of the lower part of the torso below the navel. The Taoists thought people are not so healthy because there was a channel between the CV and GV were closed. In order to prolong life, the channel must be opened. Since the CV and GV vessels are commonly going through the lower Dan Tian, the Taoist thought that if they breathe Chi into the Dan Tian which will open the channel for the both vessels. The Chi was going downward deep into the Dan Tian and go toward the back of the Torso. Hence, the direction of the orbit was said to be going from the Dan Tian to the GV around the head toward the front. Then through the the CV down and return to the Dan Tian. One complete revolution of the Chi in and out of the Dan Tian was considered to be one orbit cycle. The more number of orbits that goes around the torso, the person will be healthier. The driven factor of the orbit was determined by how many times that Chi was cycling through the Dan Tian. Breathing Chi deep into the Dan Tian was considered to be "abdominal breathing". Thus, the more times the Chi was breathed into the Dan Tian, the healthier the person will be. If one who thinks meditation without performing the abdominal breathing(NAB), one was not activating the MCO-1. Note: This concept will be referred as basis to answer all questions regrading the MCO-1 in the future. Please comment....!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Birch Posted August 28, 2011 It's very interesting Chi-dragon. I've had a few experiences with MCO that suggest there's lots of "stuff" going on with it. Certainly as was mentioned in the other thread, the component of awareness focussed into attention (imagine shining a broad lamp on something, then switch it for a laser) is IME (and obviously IMO as a result) it a key aspect of it (the MCO) I see it as "patterns" of attention that have a direct physical (and mental) set of consequences which I think are in addition to the positive effects of deep breathing. I've experienced a definite change in my ability to do stuff with my left hand for example. Sometimes suprisingly so. I mentioned the muscle control and ability to isolate a few of the lower abdominal (and not forgetting pelvic) muscles. No external movements do this that I'm aware of. I didn't do that before (does this mean I couldn't? Not sure) Through MCO I also realised something about the "inner" and the "outer", they're not arbitrary exactly but my mind definitely decides upon which is which. When I decide to include everything, my mind finds this both unacceptable and wonderous, possibly "true" but it doesn't mean it is:-) My 2cts but still exploring:-) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 28, 2011 There are two methods of cosmic orbit. They are Microcosmic Orbit(MCO-1) and Macrocosmic Orbit(MCO-2). I had been study MCO-1 for sometime. At first, it was so hard to understand because of the terms used by the Taoists are so esoteric. It would be more difficult to comprehend if it was translated into another language. A Taoist or Taoists, hereinafter, will be referred and understood as a Taoist(s) in the Taoist religion. You need to realize that the origin of Qi circulation pre-dates Laozi... There were no Taoist at that time. Yes, later writings are quite varied in their explanation and choice of words; even Laozi shows this hidden meaning. The Taoist always have the own thoughts and putted in their own language that not anybody can understand. Here is the way I understood MCO-1 as of now. The following explanation, hopefully, will clear some of the mists in the air. The understanding of MCO-1, finally, had come to my senses. Perhaps, one might not have been explained this way by someone else. You get only part of the picture, IMO... it is just a physical exercise in your explanation. I think your reading too many modern explanations since you have to accept that all spirituality was removed from TCM and Qigong by .... you know what forces... The MCO-1 was a system developed from the perceptive point of view of a Taoist. From the acupuncture chart in the TCM, there is a Concept Vessel(CV) and Governor Vessel(GV). Please note that Dan Tian is Taoist term but not a TCM term. Dan Tian was designated, by Taoists, as a location of the lower part of the torso below the navel. The Taoists thought people are not so healthy because there was a channel between the CV and GV were closed. In order to prolong life, the channel must be opened. Since the CV and GV vessels are commonly going through the lower Dan Tian, the Taoist thought that if they breathe Chi into the Dan Tian which will open the channel for the both vessels. The Chi was going downward deep into the Dan Tian and go toward the back of the Torso. Hence, the direction of the orbit was said to be going from the Dan Tian to the GV around the head toward the front. Then through the the CV down and return to the Dan Tian. One complete revolution of the Chi in and out of the Dan Tian was considered to be one orbit cycle. The more number of orbits that goes around the torso, the person will be healthier. The driven factor of the orbit was determined by how many times that Chi was cycling through the Dan Tian. This is the "Fire Path" that most know and talk about. There has already been much discussion as to its varied uses... but in general it was a required stepping stone to spiritual practices. Breathing Chi deep into the Dan Tian was considered to be "abdominal breathing". Thus, the more times the Chi was breathed into the Dan Tian, the healthier the person will be. If one who thinks meditation without performing the abdominal breathing(NAB), one was not activating the MCO-1. Again... this is only part of it. One example of using the MCO with NAB. There is also RAB and other paths than Fire... So what you want to stick to [for now] is just the Fire Cycle using NAB. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 28, 2011 Dawie.... You seem to acquired lots of knowledge. I do respect you for that, but somehow it seem to me that you are having problem to isolate them from one another. I know you were introduces a lot of TCM information. You are putting everything that you have learned and mixing them all together. IMO You are applying too much theory into your argument. Hence, I really don't have enough patience and time to sort out the irrelevant portion each time. Besides, you are putting too much personal feeling into your post. I'm sorry, it was not something that I would like to cope with in this respect. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 28, 2011 Dawie.... You seem to acquired lots of knowledge. I do respect you for that, but somehow it seem to me that you are having problem to isolate them from one another. I know you were introduces a lot of TCM information. You are putting everything that you have learned and mixing them all together. IMO You are applying too much theory into your argument. Hence, I really don't have enough patience and time to sort out the irrelevant portion each time. Besides, you are putting too much personal feeling into your post. I'm sorry, it was not something that I would like to cope with in this respect. Documented archaeology and personal experience/practice are quite relevant. I suspect you would rather we all just listen to what your chinese sources writes without anyone challenging it; despite you asked for "please comment". I rather grow tired of you setting up your podium and asking people their thoughts when you just want them to blindly accept what you (or your source) says. I guess we are not allowed to sort out the irrelevant portions. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 28, 2011 I do respect you for that, but somehow it seem to me that you are having problem to isolate them from one another. I know you were introduces a lot of TCM information. You are putting everything that you have learned and mixing them all together. IMO You are applying too much theory into your argument. I can understand why you say this but testing theory with practice is the only way to truly accept and understand the theory. You apply too much logic and throw out the practical experience with the bath water. I think you have a tremendous amount of knowledge (particularly for a native) but the more you talk about all these issues about Qigong, I realize the less you truly now. This is not to be personal, unless we want to say it is my personal observation. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Non Posted August 28, 2011 (edited) a TCM doc told me his MCO practice: breathe in DOWN THE FRONT, into the dan-tien from the nose down to the dan-tien. Then breathe out pushing the qi from the dan-tien to the perineum, going up the coccyx and up the back, into the third eye. Etc. Basically breathing in down the front and breathing out up the back. Which is opposite of what most people will tell you. What I can tell you though about this method is in MY case it works better for me. I feel calm after doing it, almost feeling like I've hit a reset button. AS for macrocosmic orbit.. I'm not sure what it is but I think I remember a TCM qigong professor telling the class that it's just like the Microcosmic orbit except it includes all 8 extraordinary vessels, or the 12 meridians. Not sure. No details were given. I think he implied that it can actually be practiced spontaneously and naturally by those proficient in the MCO and qigong practices. Maybe it's just pore breathing, or breathing in from the bottom of the feet, up to the top of the head and then back down the front out the bottom of the feet? Edited August 28, 2011 by Non Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stigweard Posted August 29, 2011 (edited) IMO You are applying too much theory into your argument. LOL I am sure we all do that at one point or another ... hint hint Besides, you are putting too much personal feeling into your post. I'm sorry, it was not something that I would like to cope with in this respect. Actually CD has a point here Dawei. You have seemed to have developed a personal "thing" with CD. Are you sure your comments aren't tainted by that? It's easy to do, I know when I have had a "thing" with folks in the past I have to hold myself back from disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. I do know where you are coming from though Dawei Don't take this the wrong way ChiDragon, but your "know it all" attitude makes me sometimes want to reach through the screen and shake you by the collar But then again, who am I to talk? I too can often be an arrogant, self-indulgent, insufferable "know it all". Bahahahah!!! Oh well ... whatevs Edited August 29, 2011 by Stigweard Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 29, 2011 (edited) Actually CD has a point here Dawei. You have seemed to have developed a personal "thing" with CD. Are you sure your comments aren't tainted by that? Except I fess'ed up here: I rather grow tired of you setting up your podium and asking people their thoughts when you just want them to blindly accept what you (or your source) says. I guess we are not allowed to sort out the irrelevant portions. I did not hold back from self-expression of my feelings... Do you want to call me on something which I have already acknowledged or do you want to just share an observation which I already revealed too? We are in agreement and I shared it... So what is your real point if you have read all the comments What can I say... I like to call BS on stuff... and I was the first to do so... and now about a few months later almost a dozen or more have done it too. DO you seriously not also see this? Let's be honest for a moment... --- edited: sorry.. you are equally honest, I did not read all the post Don't take this the wrong way ChiDragon, but your "know it all" attitude makes me sometimes want to reach through the screen and shake you by the collar he is chinese.. we need to give him a western break --- Edit #2: I am a mod at another, unrelated topic website... but I know how to find people... there are at least two here posting in this forum area who have spam'ed up other websites in the exact same way as they are doing here and now. I really don't care so much for self-proclamation and 'I am the messiah' complex... but I am happy to let the TTB members blindly follow as they want. Edited August 29, 2011 by dawei Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted August 29, 2011 There are two methods of cosmic orbit. They are Microcosmic Orbit(MCO-1) and Macrocosmic Orbit(MCO-2). I had been study MCO-1 for sometime. .... Please comment....!!! Actually, may I ask a question? Do you study with a teacher or from books? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 29, 2011 (edited) Actually, may I ask a question? Do you study with a teacher or from books? I learned from all reading materials and personal life experience. I had talked to some Chinese Chi Kung masters. They were repeating nothing was any different than some of the reading materials. It was better to find something on the internet that makes a little more sense. FYI I had been researching on the internal to find some commonalities in the wordings on different sites; and come to a simplest logical conclusion. Edited August 29, 2011 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 29, 2011 I learned from all reading materials and personal life experience. I had talked to some Chinese Chi Kung masters. They were repeating nothing was any different than some of the reading materials. It was better to find something on the internet that makes a little more sense. The internet was ultimately a better source than the Qigong masters you talked to? What year did you talk to them? FYI I had been researching on the internal to find some commonalities in the wordings on different sites; and come to a simplest logical conclusion. Researching where? Reading or practicing? why does logic need to be the conclusion.. If you want to get to where the practice is leaing, it will require you to drop all logic. JMO Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 29, 2011 (edited) a TCM doc told me his MCO practice: breathe in DOWN THE FRONT, into the dan-tien from the nose down to the dan-tien. Then breathe out pushing the qi from the dan-tien to the perineum, going up the coccyx and up the back, into the third eye. Etc. Basically breathing in down the front and breathing out up the back. Which is opposite of what most people will tell you. What I can tell you though about this method is in MY case it works better for me. I feel calm after doing it, almost feeling like I've hit a reset button. AS for macrocosmic orbit.. I'm not sure what it is but I think I remember a TCM qigong professor telling the class that it's just like the Microcosmic orbit except it includes all 8 extraordinary vessels, or the 12 meridians. Not sure. No details were given. I think he implied that it can actually be practiced spontaneously and naturally by those proficient in the MCO and qigong practices. Maybe it's just pore breathing, or breathing in from the bottom of the feet, up to the top of the head and then back down the front out the bottom of the feet? Non and -K-... Thank you both...!!! This is the kind of response I was expecting. It was relevant to the subject that was being discussed of this thread. I wish more people are participated in such manner. These two points are within my guideline. 1. Basically breathing in down the front and breathing out up the back. 2. AS for macrocosmic orbit.. I'm not sure what it is but I think I remember a TCM qigong professor telling the class that it's just like the Microcosmic orbit except it includes all 8 extraordinary vessels, or the 12 meridians. Edited August 29, 2011 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted August 29, 2011 (edited) I learned from all reading materials and personal life experience. I had talked to some Chinese Chi Kung masters. They were repeating nothing was any different than some of the reading materials. It was better to find something on the internet that makes a little more sense. FYI I had been researching on the internal to find some commonalities in the wordings on different sites; and come to a simplest logical conclusion. There is no point in trying to help those who choose not to learn. Edited August 29, 2011 by steve I should know better 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Non Posted August 29, 2011 my TCM professor gave his method. First, breathe in to the Middle Dan Tien. After 2 weeks to a month as you do this, you'll begin to feel heat in the chest. Then you start to guide this qi and breathe it into the lower dan tien. After thatm, you'll begin to feel heat (2 weeks to a month again). Then after that.> I forgot what else.. I think you go down to the perineum and wait for the heat sensation again but thinking about it maybe that would not be advised. I think from then on you complete the orbit until (giong up the Du) you get to the third eye. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 29, 2011 Steve.. Thank you. What you are telling me was the opposite in my native literature. Somehow, there was something got lost in the translation before it reached the west or somebody was miss guided. IMO self study is more open instead of just listen to an one side story. One can compare notes from one another, Otherwise, by listening to someone to repeat only what they had learned with no room for corrections. Like someone says here: "If you want to get to where the practice is leaing, it will require you to drop all logic.". So, I am very sorry to hear that someone learned all the Chi Kung or Nei Kung for the masters and still think breathing has nothing to do with it. I think the west still got a long way to go before learning the real stuff. JMO Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted August 29, 2011 Steve.. Thank you. What you are telling me was the opposite in my native literature. Somehow, there was something got lost in the translation before it reached the west or somebody was miss guided. IMO self study is more open instead of just listen to an one side story. One can compare notes from one another, Otherwise, by listening to someone to repeat only what they had learned with no room for corrections. Like someone says here: "If you want to get to where the practice is leaing, it will require you to drop all logic.". So, I am very sorry to hear that someone learned all the Chi Kung or Nei Kung for the masters and still think breathing has nothing to do with it. I think the west still got a long way to go before learning the real stuff. JMO I'm sorry that you are too closed-minded to listen to someone who is sharing with you what they have learned from a Daoist master. My teacher is from Taiwan and I have learned from him directly. What I am telling you has nothing to do with books. It is the real deal. If you are not interested, it is your loss. Be well and good luck with your practice. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 29, 2011 Steve... I thank you too. I'm not saying all these things here for nothing. Yes, an open mind is very important. Just keep in mind to consider that are other possible things out there to be evaluated. Of course, use your own intuition and judgment. Good luck to you and your practice too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Informer Posted August 29, 2011 (edited) Thanks for the Post ChiDragon I think you left off talking about MCO-2 ! There is some good info in this thread, but I would say to find heart before the heat, they are both in the chest. I am wondering if it is a coincidence the the eye of horus is = 63/64 The the route we take seems to also be 63/64 of a circumference. One more thing, if you can find the solar plexus (heat, fire), heart (love) is just above that, I would recommend you guys stop by and visit there while waiting Edited August 29, 2011 by Informer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 29, 2011 (edited) Thanks for the Post ChiDragon I think you left off talking about MCO-2 ! There is some good info in this thread, but I would say to find heart before the heat, they are both in the chest. I am wondering if it is a coincidence the the eye of horus is = 63/64 You welcome...!!! Informer. MCO-1 was a lot simpler and easier to be discussed. I still have some unfinished business about MCO-1 but I was interrupted and I have an impression somebody already made up his mind that my understanding was invalid. So, I do not know that I should go further with it. I didn't leave out the MCO-2, I was just have not gone into it yet. It is more complicated than MCO-2. To be honest with you, I still have to do some investigation on it. So far, I know that MCO-2 involves with all the meridians in the body. I'm sorry, I have no idea about the eye of horus is = 63/64 or what it was. Edited August 29, 2011 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 29, 2011 All depends who wants to listen and talk... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Informer Posted August 29, 2011 You guys can talk and listen, then I'll just read and write. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 29, 2011 Cool...... I want to say one more thing or so to conclude this thread. There was a question that somebody asked: How do we know that the channel of the MCO-1 was opened...??? The answer is when one can breathe the Chi deep down to the Dan Tian. If only breathe down to the Chest, then it was not. If an ordinary normal person can breathe the Chi down to the chest and was considered to be Chi Kung; or if people think that there aren't any difference between abdominal breathing and chest breathing, then they really don't know what Chi Kung is all about. PS.... Thank guys for given me the last opportunity to have my final say so.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VCraigP Posted August 29, 2011 Cool...... I want to say one more thing or so to conclude this thread. There was a question that somebody asked: How do we know that the channel of the MCO-1 was opened...??? The answer is when one can breathe the Chi deep down to the Dan Tian. If only breathe down to the Chest, then it was not. If an ordinary normal person can breathe the Chi down to the chest and was considered to be Chi Kung; or if people think that there aren't any difference between abdominal breathing and chest breathing, then they really don't know what Chi Kung is all about. PS.... Thank guys for given me the last opportunity to have my final say so.... But have you really said anything?? or anything new? Do you really think no one here knows about abdominal breathing?? Do you really think that Deep abdominal breathing = Open MCO? In fact I do not think you have demonstrated very much about what you understand about the MCO-1. Can you examine your own perspective and acknowledge that you may not have a complete view? Can you allow the possibility that others may know more than you and they may be westerners who have learned from Chinese or others, and may have had informative experience that tested and revealed these teachings to be true for them? it appears more and more obvious that you think you have some authority and depth of knowledge that is entirely absent on TTB. I assure you that you do not. There are things you know. There are things you don't know. There are things you think you know, but don't. There are also things you don't know that you don't know. When others try to point out the last category and hold up a mirror, a man who wishes to engage in self examination will pay attention. Perhaps you can learn something here rather than try to be an authority. I believe this is how "Conversation" is meant to work, how a forum is meant to work. Cheers Craig 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 29, 2011 (edited) Thank you for your honest opinion. The people in this forum, some said breathing has nothing to do or may have something to do with Chi Kung; and some said something otherwise about abdominal breathing. There are no consistency here. Who do you suggest should be followed...??? At least, I have some consistency on my part. My story was always consistent and does not change each time when I tell it. Sorry to say, I always stuck with the same old story. Edited August 29, 2011 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites