How much do we undersatnd the Microcosmic Orbit...?

[ChiDragon]

This says it all for me...

 

Not only is the post title very apt, since the OP knows really nothing about the MCO, but knows as little about Qigong. Medical Qigong is closer to ancient medicinal practices than to modern day Chinese Medicine.

 

The 'spiritual' aspect was removed Chinese Medicine and Medical Qigong was abolished outright by the CCP... what is left of Chinese medicine and Qigong in China is brain-controlled explanations... like we read here.

 

If someone were too rational and only wanting to discuss things logically linked, then there is no way to ever understand Wu Ji and Dao as part of the universal processes which brings about life... the the 'returning cycle'... and may explain why one cannot even understand Lao Zi when he talks about Qigong (or early alchemy). Yes, it will make no sense to them. And they can go back to their native scholars all they want to seek answers and be left with nothing but more mis-information to spam and troll with among the internet.

 

You really did not say anything new or meaningful but personal feelings.

Edited September 15, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

You are mistaken. You would understand much more clearly if you were to practice Daoist alchemy. You are trying to force your Qi Gong priniciples onto a Daoist alchemical practice. They are different.

 

 

So do you think that the Dao encompasses all things except Jing, Qi, and Shen?

In fact, in some of the alchemical writings and practices you will see:

Jing --> Qi --> Shen --> Wu

I've seen some calligraphy that also includes Dao to that formula after Wu.

You really do need to begin to practice alchemy with a teacher if you hope to understand any of this. Books don't cut it, no matter how old or what language.

 

 

 

This is critical to understand.

It is like trying to learn Tai Ji Quan from reading the classics if you have never seen Tai Ji Quan. Until you have direct personal experience of the alchemical processes under the guidance of a credible teacher, you really don't have a frame of reference from which to understand.

 

 

Yes, I do get the impression that you understand it all.

 

Jing --> Qi --> Shen --> Wu

精 --> 氣 --> 神 --> 無(none)

 

BTW The actual characters:

精 --> 氣 --> 神 --> 虛(hollowness void)

 

I see there was a misunderstanding here already. But, hey, using PinYin or phonetics will mislead the western public. Now, I really understand where the miscommunication, misunderstanding and misleading came from.

Edited September 15, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Where do we go from the void? what is the full cycle?

 

If it is Jing->Qi->Shen->Void

Then...

Jing->Qi->Shen->Void->_???_->_???_ etc.

 

 

I know enough that an orbit does not simply disappear; even in the event of being knocked out of orbit and/or flung into a black hole, matter/energy are eternally orbiting a vast path of exchanges.

 

Generally speaking, maybe not pertinent to MCO, but as above so below... in a stable orbit, you have 4 phases which suggests from void comes jing, but that doesnt seem to ring true in my head.

 

I dont know much/anything about Microcosmic Orbits let alone Macrocosmic Orbits, but i know that all things are mirrors, reflictions, of all other things, and when i hear orbits, i cant help but imagine microgalactic movements in the body.

[dawei]

I'm addressing the issue not the person. Can you give me some justifications how are Dao and Wuji involve with the rest...??? It just make no sense.

 

Can you define WuJi..???

http://www.ichikung.com/html/dantians.php

 

"The ultimate goal of internal alchemy is immortality, a complete transformation of the body's Jing, Chi (Qi), and Shen. Jing, Chi (Qi), and Shen are the three fundamental energies necessary for human life, and are collectively referred to as the "Three Treasures of Man." To accomplish this transformation, alchemists first gather and transform Jing into Chi (Qi) in the Lower Dantian. They then gather and transform Chi (Qi) into Shen in the Middle Dantian. Next, they transform Shen into Wuji (the absolute openness of infinite space) in the Upper Dantian. Finally, they merge Wuji into Dao (divine energy)."

 

"4. Upper Dantian Center: The center of the Upper Dantian is located in the pineal gland, which is a small, reddish-gray colored gland attached to the base of the third ventricle of the Brain, in front of the cerebellum. The pineal gland is a mass of nerve matter, containing corpuscles resembling nerve cells and small hard masses of calcareous particles. It is larger in children than in adults and more developed in women than in men. The pineal gland is the organ of telepathic communication, and receives its impressions through the medium of vibrations caused by thoughts projected from other individuals. When an individual thinks, he or she initiates a series of vibrations within the surrounding energy field which is radiated out from his or her body as energetic waves and pulses. Therefore, this area is considered the space where the Shen transcends the limitations of form and merges with the infinite space of the Wuji. From the Wuji, the Shen then progresses towards reuniting with the Dao."

 

"TRAINING OF THE UPPER DANTIAN

In Medical Chi Kung, the training of the Upper Dantian is used for cultivating spiritual intuition and light. Upper Dantian training exercises are commonly known as Shengong meditations (Arhatic Yoga by GMCKS), and are the primary methods used for advancing the doctor's psychic ability."

Edited September 15, 2011 by dawei

[dawei]

Jing --> Qi --> Shen --> Wu

精 --> 氣 --> 神 --> 無(none)

 

BTW The actual characters:

精 --> 氣 --> 神 --> 虛(hollowness void)

 

I see there was a misunderstanding here already. But, hey, using PinYin or phonetics will mislead the western public. Now, I really understand where the miscommunication, misunderstanding and misleading came from.

 

http://www.taoism-uk.org/doku.php/taoist_principles

 

"Wu Ji

In the beginning, nothing existed. In Chinese this is called Wu Ji (meaning absolute nothingness). Wu Ji is synonymous with the Buddhist word sunyata, meaning emptiness, the void, pure openness, no boundary. Wu Ji is also sometimes referred to as the mystery, the nameless, the great mother, the source."

 

"Conscious realization of Wu Ji is called “Returning to the Source."

 

(explanation that Wu Ji is Buddhist emptiness)

 

"Emptiness gives birth to shen, spirit. Shen gives birth to Ch'i, energy. Ch'i gives birth to jing, essence or form. Form gives birth to discrimination, to desire and aversion, and to confusion about who and what we truly are. Thus the Taoist yogi seeks to transform jing back into Ch'i, to transform Ch'i back into shen, to transform shen back into emptiness."

 

(Wu Ji is the chinese term; Emptiness the Buddhist concept which most understand so the author uses that to convey the meaning of Wu Ji)

 

"The Three Dan Tians (Cinnabar Fields, Elixir Fields) are the inner alchemical cauldrons where transformation of the Three Treasures takes place. Jing is transformed into Ch'i in the Lower Dan Tian (also called the Yellow Court), located in the space between the navel, kidneys and sexual organs. Ch'i is transformed into shen in the MiddleDan Tian (also called the Crimson Palace in reference to the heart), located in the center of the chest. Shen is transformed into emptiness in the Upper Dan Tian (also called the Crystal Room) in the center of the brain."

 

(Same as said in the previous post)

Edited September 15, 2011 by dawei

[ChiDragon]

Where do we go from the void? what is the full cycle?

 

If it is Jing->Qi->Shen->Void

Then...

Jing->Qi->Shen->Void->_???_->_???_ etc.

 

 

I know enough that an orbit does not simply disappear; even in the event of being knocked out of orbit and/or flung into a black hole, matter/energy are eternally orbiting a vast path of exchanges.

 

Generally speaking, maybe not pertinent to MCO, but as above so below... in a stable orbit, you have 4 phases which suggests from void comes jing, but that doesnt seem to ring true in my head.

 

I dont know much/anything about Microcosmic Orbits let alone Macrocosmic Orbits, but i know that all things are mirrors, reflictions, of all other things, and when i hear orbits, i cant help but imagine microgalactic movements in the body.

 

Good point

Jing->Qi->Shen->Void is an internal alchemy process inside the body. Jing has to be nourished by the Chi(air) from breathing to react with the Jing to produce into Qi(energy). The Qi was manifested by Shen which is the soul of the body. The Shen reflects the spirit of the body. e.g. The feelings, the complexion, the lights shown in the eyes and the mood.

 

The MCO recycles the internal alchemy process in each MCO orbit by sunken the breath deep to the lower Dan Tian. Thus if the MCO stops, then the internal alchemy process ceased also.

Edited September 15, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

could you rephrase? I sort of get it, but it's not clicking.

[dawei]

The spiritual legacy of Shaolin temple: Buddhism, Daoism, and the energetic arts

 

My Link

 

 

"Shen is developed from jing and qi in the upper dantian, which is located at the level of the third eye, and is transformed into wuji (infinite space or void). This process is likened to steam or smoke dissipating into space. In turn, wuji returns to the Dao, or the divine."

[ChiDragon]

dawei...

I see you have your own reliable sources. I have nothing to say nor can link me into your references. I have to stop right here due to there was no correlation in our notes. Peace.

[dawei]

I don't see how Dao and Wuji get involve with Jing, Qi and Shen. Somebody was really confused about these two terms. IMO This a very bad secondhand information and misleading.

 

Can you give me some justifications how are Dao and Wuji involve with the rest...??? It just make no sense.

In about 20 minutes of research, I can find more than enough comments and post them here.

 

Still secondhand information and missing and making no sense?

[dawei]

dawei...

I see you have your own reliable sources. I have nothing to say nor can link me into your references. I have to stop right here due to there was no correlation in our notes. Peace.

As Steve, and many others have pointed out over and over again: Your stuck in some narrow-minded concept of what Qigong is and anything outside that paradigm is seen as simply wrong. These issues move around and embrace Qigong, inner alchemy, Daoist magic, Medical Qigong, Shengong practices, etc.

 

It is very easy to understand why you don't comprehend the information shared but you seem to have no time nor open-mindedness to investigate the information shared by others. If your not interested to practice or experience any of these methods that is certainly your choice. But to attempt to talk on these topics as an expert puts you as dangerously misleading others who are serious about such practices. Yes, Peace in return.

[steve]

Yes, I do get the impression that you understand it all.

 

 

[ChiDragon]

As Steve, and many others have pointed out over and over again: Your stuck in some narrow-minded concept of what Qigong is and anything outside that paradigm is seen as simply wrong. These issues move around and embrace Qigong, inner alchemy, Daoist magic, Medical Qigong, Shengong practices, etc.

 

It is very easy to understand why you don't comprehend the information shared but you seem to have no time nor open-mindedness to investigate the information shared by others. If your not interested to practice or experience any of these methods that is certainly your choice. But to attempt to talk on these topics as an expert puts you as dangerously misleading others who are serious about such practices. Yes, Peace in return.

 

You all are reading the same thing and believed. I have to give you all the credit how you all understand it from your source. I must say it was too broad from your point of view. Like I said before, you all are lumping every together, in the contrary, it seems I have a narrow mind. However, I am only repeating what my source says. At least, I can narrow it down with simple definitions and I can explain it with consistency and less confusion.

 

Since our concepts are so different, shall we say I practice the Chinese Style and you all practice your own style. In the past, I had described the efficacy from my practice based on my own beliefs. So far, I have been hearing your theories and concepts, but I don't think I have heard how your practice effected your physical body or health. Would you please shed some light on that....???

Edited September 16, 2011 by ChiDragon

[steve]

Since our concepts are so different, shall we say I practice the Chinese Style and you all practice your own style.

:lol:

I'll tell my Shifu that - he'll get a kick out of it.

The truth is that you do not seem to have had any personal instruction in Daoist alchemy by a teacher.

You have QiGong experience and try to apply that to what you read about alchemy.

It's quite obvious from your misconceptions.

If you are interested in Daoist alchemy, you will not be successful with the path you are currently on.

You need to find a credible teacher.

Unfortunately, that is difficult but since you are in Hong Kong it should be easier for you than most everyone else on the forum.

Unless, of course, you act with them like you act with us here - then you're out of luck!

[ChiDragon]

Steve....

This is nothing new. All the sifus will assume that their styles are the best and superior just like what we are doing here.... :lol:

[Apech]

...

Unfortunately, that is difficult but since you are in Hong Kong it should be easier for you than most everyone else on the forum.

Unless, of course, you act with them like you act with us here - then you're out of luck!

 

Are you in Hong Kong ChiDragon?

[ChiDragon]

Are you in Hong Kong ChiDragon?

 

No, I'm in the USA.

[steve]

My mistake - I thought you were in Hong Kong for some reason...

[steve]

Steve....

This is nothing new. All the sifus will assume that their styles are the best and superior just like what we are doing here.... :lol:

I definitely don't think my style is best or superior.

Just that there is more to Daoist alchemy than breathing.

[ChiDragon]

could you rephrase? I sort of get it, but it's not clicking.

 

Ahh....

I thought that might catch someone's attention. BTW Whatever it says in Chinese or English about Jing, Qi and Shen still make no sense to me. I try to understand the internal alchemy by relating it to modern science.

 

Here is the way I would like to understand it:

The human body structure was formed by a basic unit. The Taoists called this unit Jing which the body cell in western science. Of course, the Taoist don't want to call it the body cell. Jing is something that we must keep it going to sustain the life of the body. In order to do so, one has to breath something in the air to keep the Jing alive and transform it into Qi. By the Taoist definition, Qi was formed by the food we eat and the air we breathe. That tells me, the glucose was from the food that we eat and the oxygen from the air that we breathe. The resultant product is the ATP energy which is analogous to the Taoist Qi.

 

The Qi energy activates the human body to move. The motion of the body manifest the soul of the body. The soul reveals the spiritual livelihood of the body. The Taoist called the human soul as Shen. The Shen was only a manifestation of the motion of the body. After each motion, then the Shen was disappeared into thin air which is the Void as the Taoist called. And this cycle repeats itself by breathing the air and combined with the glucose to form Qi again.

 

This the simplest way of my understanding that I can explain it in plain language. Again, the Chinese and English sayings about JIng, Qi and Shen are hard for me to grasp.

Edited September 16, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Apech]

...

 

This the simplest way of my understanding that I can explain it in plain language. Again, the Chinese and English sayings about JIng, Qi and Shen are hard for me to grasp.

 

ChiDragon,

 

I am by no means an expert in Chinese internal alchemy but what you have described just does not sound right. What makes you think you have understood jing, qi and shen properly? What makes you think you can equate jing to the body cells?

 

Others have advised you to get some teachings from a qualified teacher ... this should be possible in the US I would have thought. I think it would be a good idea.

 

A.

[ChiDragon]

ChiDragon,

 

I am by no means an expert in Chinese internal alchemy but what you have described just does not sound right. What makes you think you have understood jing, qi and shen properly? What makes you think you can equate jing to the body cells?

 

Others have advised you to get some teachings from a qualified teacher ... this should be possible in the US I would have thought. I think it would be a good idea.

 

A.

Ref from dawei:

CH'i1), which is our constitutional strength inherited from our mother and father through the union of egg and sperm. The second type is acquired Ch'i, which is the energy that we draw from the air we breathe and the food we eat.

 

It didn't say exactly, but doesn't it sound familiar...???

 

Glucose + O2 = H2O + CO2 + heat + energy(ATP)

Isn't glucose was from the food we eat and oxygen from the air we breathe....????

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

ChiDragon:

 

My own understanding of Chi, Jing, and Shen are similar, to say the least.

 

Shen, being the spirit, is interprable; the interactions of our body and mind in the world around us.

 

Jing is the body, essentially. The physical manifestation of energy; neurological, synaptic, respiratory.

 

Qi/chi is intrinsic energy which is not necessarily material or manifested but can be used to become manifest as physical energy which we express with our actions.

 

 

So i will rephrase my question:

 

What is the cycle of these three catagories of human-being?

How does the cycle of Jing, Chi, & Shen work; What is the process by which we transmute our being?

[ChiDragon]

There is one mistake: ATP is not exaxctly Energy it is something like Benzin,

materialized Energy which can be used by the cells and the ATP is not really so great

as its use very shortlived and also very long time for regeneration.

Q

 

I wish these statements didn't make by you. The part on the ATP short lived is valid but takes a very long time for regeneration is not. Furthermore, I was hoping someone else was going to make this correction instead of me.

 

FYI...

ATP are generated as fast as one can consume. e.g. Each time when the muscle contracts, it requires an action potential signal to activate the muscle nerves for contraction. This action potential is a biochemical energy, ATP. It is true that the ATP only last a few seconds. However, as soon the muscle contracts, the ATP will be generated almost instantly for its purpose.

 

"also very long time for regeneration."

If I evaluate the cardiac muscle based on this invalid statement, then the heart will not pump fast enough to deliver the oxygenated blood to the body cells throughout the body. Please keep in mind, ATP are required for cardiac muscle contraction, otherwise, it will cause a cardiac arrest if ATP were not present. If the heart do not pump fast enough due to the lack of ATP, as a result, hypoxia will occur in the body. Hypoxia is the worse condition for the body cells which will cause mutation to transform into cancerous cells or death.