[TTC Study] Chapter 1 of the Tao Te Ching

[Marblehead]

"After reading the Tao, burn it."

 

Hehehe. You ain't gonna' burn my books buddy!

[manitou]

Yes, the written Tao (like some Buddhist sutras) provides useful signposts. However, both are also crucially limited, for they are thoughts and words. A startling Buddhist epigram says, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him". Perhaps there ought to be a Taoist one that says, "After reading the Tao, burn it."

 

I don't think it's possible to understand the Tao after one reading. Each time one reads it, we're at a different level of understanding than the last time we read it. You will see different things on your 20th reading than you did on the 1st.

[Aaron]

I don't think it's possible to understand the Tao after one reading. Each time one reads it, we're at a different level of understanding than the last time we read it. You will see different things on your 20th reading than you did on the 1st.

 

 

Hello Manitou,

 

This is true of every book, but at some point you will have read it enough that reading it more is pointless. I read the Tao Teh Ching every night before I went to bed for nearly twenty years. Before that I had been reading a chapter of the bible, it seemed like a logical evolution to me, since I no longer believed in Christianity, but I was interested in the Tao. A few months ago I had a conversation with a friend and I realized that continuing to read the Tao Teh Ching every night was pointless, that I could use that time for practical purposes. Since that realization I haven't read the Tao Teh Ching once, except for a chapter here or there that pops up on the forum.

 

For me the Tao Teh Ching was a stepping stone for a higher understanding. It was like primary school and now I'm entering college, I'm beginning to understand things on a whole other level that I didn't before. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but it's how I've been feeling lately.

 

Aaron

Edited May 3, 2011 by Twinner

[manitou]

Twinner! I too used it as a daily meditation for 20 years! One small chapter is a perfect tool for meditation and inner understanding. I agree - at some point this must all be walked away from and direct experience takes over. Life becomes the teacher, every minute, every day.

[stan herman]

Hello Manitou,

 

This is true of every book, but at some point you will have read it enough that reading it more is pointless. I read the Tao Teh Ching every night before I went to bed for nearly twenty years. Before that I had been reading a chapter of the bible, it seemed like a logical evolution to me, since I no longer believed in Christianity, but I was interested in the Tao. A few months ago I had a conversation with a friend and I realized that continuing to read the Tao Teh Ching every night was pointless, that I could use that time for practical purposes. Since that realization I haven't read the Tao Teh Ching once, except for a chapter here or there that pops up on the forum.

 

For me the Tao Teh Ching was a stepping stone for a higher understanding. It was like primary school and now I'm entering college, I'm beginning to understand things on a whole other level that I didn't before. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but it's how I've been feeling lately.

 

Aaron

 

Yes, that pretty well says it for me as well. I would add: Since there are other fine communications (e.g. The Diamond Sutra, the stories of Don Juan, Seth) I think its good to spread your attention around enable perhaps new stimuli. Also, it seems to me, there may be other vehicles that are useful in accessing experience other than thought. All of what I've said is probably well known to most of you, but I'm still learning about you.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 1

1. 道可道，非常道。

2. 名可名，非常名。

3. 無,名天地之始。

4. 有,名萬物之母。

5. 故常無,欲以觀其妙。

6. 常有,欲以觀其徼。

7. 此兩者同出而異名，

8. 同謂之玄。玄之又玄，

9. 眾妙之門。

 

1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.

2. A name that can be named is not an eternal name.

 

3. Invisible was the name given to Tao at the origin of heaven and earth.

4. Visible was the name given to Tao as the mother of all things.

 

5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale.

6. When Tao is always visible, one would observe its boundary.

 

7. These two come from one origin but differ in name,

8. Both are regarded as fathomless; the most mysterious of the mysterious;

9. The gate of all changes.

Edited May 28, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

That's a nice translation.

 

Thanks for sharing.

[Aaron]

Another translation I did awhile back... chapter one this time.

 

If one can call it Dao, it is not the eternal Dao.

If one can name it, it is not the eternal Name.

There is no name for the origin of heaven and earth,

All things that can be named are from the Mother.

Those who look to the beginning want to understand its mystery,

But if one looks to the world around them they can see what it looks like.

Though Nothing and Everything have different names they have the same origin.

Call both of them mysterious,

Mysterious and even more mysterious,

They are the gateway to all mysteries.

[Marblehead]

That's nice.

[lienshan]

The Guodian chapter One

 

 

Abandon knowledge, sever distinction, and the people will benefit a hundredfold.

Abandon craftsmanship, sever profit, and there will be no robbers and swindlers.

Abandon hypocrisy, sever humbug, and the people will return to youngest children.

 

Suppose a lack of judgement and one in a subordinate position orders those three declarations?

To prefer uncolored of the inspected uncolored is the reduced desire of few grain still on stalks!

 

The River and the Sea; which one of them is the King of the 100 mountainstreams?

Consider the ability as the low of the 100 mountainstreams.

Therefore Their ability to be the King of the 100 mountainstreams:

 

That the people is foremost, is the attitude of the Sage therewith humble presence.

That the people is above, is his attitude therewith lowly speech.

That the people is highest, what doesn't denigrate the people, is his point of view.

That the people is in the front, what doesn't override the people, is his point of view.

 

The music of the world advances and isn't rejected, because he doesn't contend.

Therefore the inability to engage in the contention of the world.

 

There's no larger crime than extreme desire.

There's no more sorrowful conflict than spoils sharing.

There's no greater misfortune than not knowing when enough.

 

What's forever enough: Sufficient knowledge is enough!

 

`

Edited July 22, 2011 by lienshan

[lienshan]

I've underlined knowledge in the last line, because Lao Tzu underlined the character!

He did so in order to point at the character knowledge in the first line (in the Shen Dao quote).

 

It was impossible to underline when writing on narrow bamboo slips so classical chinese had this feature:

What's underlined was placed in the front of the line and a 之 told where the underlined belonged. That'll say:

 

written 知足之為足 must be read 足知為足 ( 之為 means the verb to do while 為 means the verb to be )

 

knowledge - sufficient - its - to do - enough (are the way most translators read the line)

sufficient - knowledge - to be - enough (are the way translators knowing read the line)

[Marblehead]

That, of course, is Chapter 19.

 

Here is Henrick's translation:

 

1 Eliminate knowledge, get rid of distinctions,

2 And the people will benefit one hundredfold.

3 Eliminate artistry, get rid of profit,

4 And there will be no robbers and thieves.

5 Eliminate transformations, get rid of deliberations,

6 And the people will return to filial piety and compassion.

 

7 But these three sayings, regarded as your mission, are not complete.

8 And perhaps we should add to them the following things:

 

9 Manifest simplicity, embrace the genuine,

10 Lessen self-interest, and make few your desires.

 

 

Apparently Lines 1 - 6 were the original and 7 - 10 were a later addition by someone.

[lienshan]

That, of course, is Chapter 19.

It's one single text that later became chapter 19 + chapter 66 + chapter 46 in Tao Teh Ching.

 

Why not enjoy the original manuscript? It's unedited Lao Tzu speaking!

[Marblehead]

It's one single text that later became chapter 19 + chapter 66 + chapter 46 in Tao Teh Ching.

 

Why not enjoy the original manuscript? It's unedited Lao Tzu speaking!

 

Hehehe. Okay. I didn't know what you were doing. Now I know so I can play the game. Would you like me to present Henrick's translation after you have posted yours so we can discuss and compare?

[lienshan]

Hehehe. Okay. Now I know so I can play the game.

My first serve:

 

At the beginning: "Abandon knowledge"

At the end: "There's no greater misfortune than not knowing when enough"

 

How can anyone know when enough, if knowledge is abandoned?

 

Either is Lao Tzu contradicting himself or quoting somebody else at the beginning.

[ChiDragon]

Remember, LaoTze always use reverse negative logic. Please keep in mind!

 

When he said: "Abandon knowledge" he meant "Abandon negative knowledge".

 

Another word, "Abandon negative knowledge" means "abandon ignorance"

Edited July 22, 2011 by ChiDragon

[steve]

My first serve:

 

At the beginning: "Abandon knowledge"

At the end: "There's no greater misfortune than not knowing when enough"

 

How can anyone know when enough, if knowledge is abandoned?

 

Either is Lao Tzu contradicting himself or quoting somebody else at the beginning.

It is not a contradiction or quotation, IMO.

It is because "knowing" when enough is not based on knowledge.

It is not based on facts, memories, ideas, concepts, and the products of learning.

It is a knowing in the bones, in the heart mind, it is direct knowing through awareness.

It is connecting with something other than the conditioned mind.

It is returning to the source.

[lienshan]

Remember, LaoTze always use reverse negative logic. Please keep in mind!

 

When he said: "Abandon knowledge" he meant "Abandon negative knowledge".

 

Another word, "Abandon negative knowledge" means "abandon ignorance"

When he said: "There's no greater misfortune than not knowing when enough."

he meant: "There's no greater misfortune than not ignoring when enough."

 

It is not a contradiction or quotation, IMO.

My first serve was easy to return; here's the difficult second serve:

 

Lao Tzu's arguement against the three declarations is in my translation a question:

Suppose a lack of judgement and one in a subordinate position orders those three declarations?

 

What happens, if an employe order those three declarations to e.g. the Boss? Is doing so wise?

Edited July 22, 2011 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

Remember, LaoTze always use reverse negative logic. Please keep in mind!

 

When he said: "Abandon knowledge" he meant "Abandon negative knowledge".

 

Another word, "Abandon negative knowledge" means "abandon ignorance"

 

Good point. I think it can be said that he was speaking to rites, rituals & ceremonies too; to live spontaneously. We spontaneously know when we have eaten enough, we don't need anyone to tell us.

 

Edit

 

Hehehe. I kinda' repeated what Steve said. That's okay though.

Edited July 22, 2011 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

 

What happens, if an employe order those three declarations to e.g. the Boss? Is doing so wise?

 

Sorry Buddy. I think your boss would say "Your ass is outa' here."

[dawei]

It is not a contradiction or quotation, IMO.

It is because "knowing" when enough is not based on knowledge.

It is not based on facts, memories, ideas, concepts, and the products of learning.

It is a knowing in the bones, in the heart mind, it is direct knowing through awareness.

It is connecting with something other than the conditioned mind.

It is returning to the source.

I agree, since the Confucians can ignore the negative or ignorance as well. He is speaking a deeper meaning than knowledge alone let's your rationalize. Rationalizing is Confucianism at work; whether forward or reverse logic.

[Aaron]

Hello Folks,

 

I merged the topic Chapter One of the Guodian Tao Te Ching with the TTC Study chapter one per subforum rules. Even though the Guodian Tao Te Ching is from an earlier era than other versions, it is still considered a chapter of the Tao Teh Ching and because of this it doesn't warrant its own chapter.

 

Aaron

[dawei]

Hello Folks,

 

I merged the topic Chapter One of the Guodian Tao Te Ching with the TTC Study chapter one per subforum rules. Even though the Guodian Tao Te Ching is from an earlier era than other versions, it is still considered a chapter of the Tao Teh Ching and because of this it doesn't warrant its own chapter.

 

Aaron

I generally agree with this. I know we didn't have this issue until several chapters ago as others wanted to make some specific point in translation but I think it belongs together with the chapters discussed; That was our original idea.

 

Thanks for your time to oversee this.

[lienshan]

Hello Folks,

 

I merged the topic Chapter One of the Guodian Tao Te Ching with the TTC Study chapter one per subforum rules.

You did a mistake, Twinner

 

DDJ 1 and the Guodian chapter 1 are two different texts.

 

You have made it impossible to discuss something very important due to some rules

 

Well, here's the pointe of the Guodian chapter 1 read as one single text:

 

Abandon knowledge, sever distinction, and the people will benefit a hundredfold.

Abandon craftsmanship, sever profit, and there will be no robbers and swindlers.

Abandon hypocrisy, sever humbug, and the people will return to youngest children.

The knowledge of abandon severs distinction, and the people will benefit a hundredfold.

The craftsmanship of abandon severs profit, and there will be no robbers and swindlers.

The hypocrisy of abandon severs humbug, and the people will return to youngest children.

 

The change of "abandon" from being a verb to be a noun, change the three orders inte three advices!

(the changed reading can be translated better than above)

 

But the pointe is only obvious when reading the socalled "chapters 19, 66, 46" as one single text!

(the pointe is in the last line of chapter 46)

Once again: The Guodian chapter One is an original uneditted Lao Tzu text!

Edited July 23, 2011 by lienshan

[lienshan]

Or put in other words:

 

The only these two texts has in common is the author and his way of underlining:

 

It's Tao maybe Tao, it isn't forever Tao.

It's names maybe titles, it isn't forever titles.

What's named heaven earth has not a first.

What's named tenthousand things has a mother.

Therefore ...

 

The translation technically explained:

 

line 1: dao ke dao ye fei heng dao ye

 

Almost all ye characters have been omitted in the Received version of Tao Teh Ching and too here,

because the two first lines are illegal without and thus impossible to translate without guessing.

 

X ye fei Y ye was a classical chinese formula meaning: It's X it isn't Y

heng "forever" became a taboo character in early Han-times and was replaced by chang "constant".

 

line 2: ming ke ming ye fei heng ming ye

 

The characters ke and fei contains implicit a zhi character defining ming as "to title, a title".

The first ming of the lines has no zhi before and is thus defined as "to name, a name".

 

line 3: wu ming tian di zhi shi ye = ming tian di wu shi ye

 

The ye character nomilizes the subject of the sentence as a noun clause, a must in classical chinese.

The wu character is underlined by being placed in the front and zhi tells where wu belongs.

The word order is as is illegal, impossible to translate, indicating that somewhat is underlined.

tian di (heaven and earth) are two names.

wan wu instead of tian di in the Mawangdui version is due to context not original but an edition.

 

line 4: you ming wan wu zhi mu ye = ming wan wu you mu ye

 

The you character is underlined by being placed in the front and zhi tells where you belongs.

wan wu (tenthousand things) is the title "tenthousand" (the mother) and the name "things".

 

My commentary:

 

Tao is both a name and a title.

"forever Tao" is giving Tao a mother, the title "forever".

This is double-wording and thus illegal, because Tao besides a name too is a title.

Lao Tzu is explaining his "Tao" in contrast to the Huang Laoist Shen Dao's "Great Tao".

Edited July 25, 2011 by lienshan