LaoZi's "De"

[ChiDragon]

FYI...

之 = it, here, my friend.

[dawei]

You read Dao De Jing as if it was a China Daily news.

You translate a sublime author as if he was a first year student.

Your "translation" was only correct, if there was a 之 character after each of your "lines".

 

The De of dao Growth nourishes Matter.

Form is the Growth of Environment.

 

I've given the names (the nouns) Capitol letters, so they are easily identified.

The other characters are the titles (the adjectives/the verbs).

dao is thus a title, as I've explained in an earlier post.

While I don't agree with self-promoting translations without discussion the topic, I also don't agree with other self-promotions. We could do better with a few deletions here, but in the absence of that, talk to the topic.

 

ChiD. No need to answer to him here. let such games go their path but do not get caught up in them

Edited July 31, 2011 by dawei

[lienshan]

I also don't agree with other self-promotions.

ok

Edited July 31, 2011 by lienshan

[ChiDragon]

ChiD. No need to answer to him here. let such games go their path but do not get caught up in them

 

I knew lienshan from another site. He is just young and enthusiastic in learning the new stuff. He just needs a little guidance, slowly but surely, to help him to get on the track...

 

Thank you for your advice which reminds of the first two lines of Chapter 56.

 

One who is wise will not speak.

One who will speak is not wise.

Edited July 31, 2011 by ChiDragon

[lienshan]

Chapter 51

 

John Wu

 

Tao gives them life

 

Robert Henricks

 

The Way gives birth to them

Tao engenders it

I knew lienshan from another site. He is just young and enthusiastic in learning the new stuff. He just needs a little guidance

The problem is seen from my point of view, that a personal pronoun (it/them) in any language by convention refers to somebody/somewhat mentioned earlier in a text. That's elementary grammar in any language!

So translating a character zhi as the personal pronoun "it/them" in the first line line of a chapter without no somebody/somewhat earlier mentioned is either a mistranslation done by someone not knowing the nuances of classical chinese or a correct translation of a grammatical mistake done by Laozi?

 

The guidance you offer me crossing the way is the guidance offered by a blind man.

[ChiDragon]

The problem is seen from my point of view, that a personal pronoun (it/them) in any language by convention refers to somebody/somewhat mentioned earlier in a text. That's elementary grammar in any language!

So translating a character zhi as the personal pronoun "it/them" in the first line line of a chapter without no somebody/somewhat earlier mentioned is either a mistranslation done by someone not knowing the nuances of classical chinese or a correct translation of a grammatical mistake done by Laozi?

 

The guidance you offer me crossing the way is the guidance offered by a blind man.

 

FYI...

In classic Chinese, there is no need to mention another noun or pronoun elsewhere because it was understood. In Classic text, there was no real grammar or sentence structure. It was so free which is beyond your imagination. The only thing you need is a logical mind.

 

Yes, One didn't realize that he was leading a blind, then he must be blinded.

[lienshan]

[dawei]

Guys. this thread is about Laozi's "De".

 

Maybe Aaron can delete all this to Chapter 51 or another place.

[lienshan]

Guys. this thread is about Laozi's "De".

The Virtue raised of Dao born is the environment completed of matter formed.

 

Sorry dawei, but the subject isn't Laozi's "De", but Laozi's "this is not De"

[ChiDragon]

Delete Chapter 51...???

 

If Chapter 51 is not about 德(Te or De), then what is.....??? :lol:

[Marblehead]

You guys better not be deleting Chapter 51. Aaron will be all over your case! Hehehe.

[zerostao]

hey guys,

i am gonna go with , it is about staying natural and being as close to ones original nature as one can be.

and possibly attaining a level of enlightenment thru meditation or experience. to see "being-for-itself"

[Marblehead]

hey guys,

i am gonna go with , it is about staying natural and being as close to ones original nature as one can be.

and possibly attaining a level of enlightenment thru meditation or experience. to see "being-for-itself"

 

Good view, I think.

[on the path]

on the path, hi

 

"Daoism" means to many people more than just following Dao. There are few who can get sufficient, um, information, from the intent underlying the words in The Laozi. I say 'intent' because translations vary according to the objectives and chosen mindsets of the translators. The TTC is a very very small part of the entirety of taoist cannon; and 'taoism' is delightfully resplendent with rules, virtues, laws, etc. For me, they would be unnecessary baggage.

 

I agree with your idea that when we are truly guided by what our heart understands - our responses and choices naturally align in the direction of harmonious flow. (-:

 

warm regards

 

 

Hi rene,

 

I'm going back to my same point, 'De' does not exist if you follow the Dao and translate it as 'virtue'. Most people translate this as 'virtue'/moral code, this is I feel the completely wrong English definition of the the word, because as a Daoist one follows the 'Dao', that to me means following the very source of all things and the natural way things inter-relate. Humans make morals the Dao does not. So to me 'De' means 'from the source we act and be according to the circumstances we are in, following what is natural by our power that we are given by the life force'. There is none of this overlay of 'morals' or of the controlling of behavior that one would expect from a lot of religions. If one takes an overview of Lao Tzu's work, I feel there is a definite view of no morals, no rules etc. and of simply following the way.

[on the path]

Beware, not all Daoist works are Daoist!!!

 

I once joined a Daoist group but quickly found that they were not the least Daoist. There were so many rules, one became lost as to what one was doing!!

[Marblehead]

Humans make morals the Dao does not. So to me 'De' means 'from the source we act and be according to the circumstances we are in, following what is natural by our power that we are given by the life force'.

 

Methinks that this might be called "being beyond good and evil".

[lienshan]

We Chinese have the same problem with 德(Te) also.

The first thing that they will think of was Confucius too.

We danes have no problems with 德(Te)

 

It's like dao a chinese character with primary 4 meanings depending on the negative:

 

bu dao = not walking = dao is defined as a "subjective" verb or adjective

fu dao = not walked = dao is defined as an "objective" verb or adjective

wu dao = not a walk = dao is defined as a "subjective" noun

fei dao = not a way = dao is defined as an "objective" noun

 

Without a negative is dao being a noun or a not noun defined by the wordorder rules

and with a personal pronoun means "objective" and without means "subjective".

 

Insert 德(Te) in the scheme and your problem disappears

Did you mean...???

We danes have no problems with 德(Te) to confuse your own self without having a thorough understanding of its meaning from the original source.

Let's continue in this thread; 德(Te) inserted in the scheme:

 

bu de = not helpful = de is defined as a "subjective" verb or adjective

fu de = not beneficent = de is defined as an "objective" verb or adjective

wu de = not a kindness = de is defined as a "subjective" noun

fei de = not a beneficence = de is defined as an "objective" noun

 

The specific english words are maybe not optimally, but express the content of 德(Te):

The adjective/verb/noun "subjective" meaning and the adjective/verb/noun "objective" meaning.

[zerostao]

ok, i cant take credit for this, but when i heard it, i was like, yeah.

Te is a piece of the Tao that is trapped inside us.

our work is to un-trap it and reconnect back to Tao.(power of the universe)

[Stigweard]

ok, i cant take credit for this, but when i heard it, i was like, yeah.

Te is a piece of the Tao that is trapped inside us.

our work is to un-trap it and reconnect back to Tao.(power of the universe)

That's a fairly decent way of looking at it from my perspective.

[dawei]

ok, i cant take credit for this, but when i heard it, i was like, yeah.

Te is a piece of the Tao that is trapped inside us.

our work is to un-trap it and reconnect back to Tao.(power of the universe)

I think the 'trap' is an indirect way of saying barriers are build up around it from environmental, societal, emotional, etc influences. While there may be something to 'increasing De' (not that you mention it but I've heard it before), I think the bigger issue is descreasing the barriers; then relatively speaking De increases.

[zerostao]

I think the 'trap' is an indirect way of saying barriers are build up around it from environmental, societal, emotional, etc influences. While there may be something to 'increasing De' (not that you mention it but I've heard it before), I think the bigger issue is descreasing the barriers; then relatively speaking De increases.

 

yeah, i reckon it is like you say and i reckon it is also something to be increasing Te as well. i have mentioned about that in other threads. so i wont speak of how cultivation of Te has it rewards in the tao

here on this thread.