Harmonious Emptiness Posted July 19, 2011 Sure. There are so many variations you can find used by authors: The Way of Virtue (Byrne) The Way and its Power (Waley) The Wisdom of Lao Zi (Yutang) The Way of Lao Zi (Chan) The Way of Life (Blakney) The Book of Tao and Teh (Zhengkun) The Book of the Way (Roberts) The Book of the Way and Virtue (Palden) The Classic of the Way and Virtue (Lynn) Some don't translate but leave it as: Dao De Jing / Tao Te Ching / etc. The earliest manuscript (Guodian) was in three bundles; The next oldest (Mawangdui) was in two versions but both have De first, then Dao. This was reversed by the Han dynasty to Dao De. But sometimes still separate as "Dao Jing" and "De Jing". It appears to be first referenced simply as the "Lao Zi" or the "Lao [old] manuscript" (Lao Jing). I see... The Way of Virtue, The Virtue of Dao.. Another thing I'm very interested to hear your view on, is in regards to "meaning of Ch'an according to Hui-Neng" topic. I understand that Ch'an Buddhism could be translated as Dhyana Buddhism, but I don't get how Dhyana turned into "Ch'an" when so many other Sanskrit words remained similar to the original. Especially, when Ch'an had another meaning regarding repentance. Please excuse the unrelatedness. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted July 19, 2011 I see... The Way of Virtue, The Virtue of Dao.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) what? you don't like these titles? The next oldest (Mawangdui) was in two versions but both have De first, then Dao. This was reversed by the Han dynasty to Dao De. But sometimes still separate as "Dao Jing" and "De Jing"." Edited July 19, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted July 20, 2011 Oh, please do not. Bad enough it was changed from The Laozi to Dao De Ching at the same time "De" was given the ethical and moral-Virtue emphasis rather than Laozi's "De" Yes, I agree this was the shame of it all. The problem with using "Virtue" is that it is inescapable to not associate it to ethical value systems like Confucius meant. There are a few times that it seems better to not even translate the chinese word and the title is probably at the top of the list. It is clearly a case of people wanting to systematize the writings over a long period of time. First they are in 3 bundles (not good enough). Then in 2 sections (still not good enough). Then reverse the order of the sections (still not good enough). Then merge, contort, and vulgarize the meaning... downplay the mystical or spiritual... Ok, we're all done Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) Oh, please do not. Bad enough it was changed from The Laozi to Dao De Ching at the same time "De" was given the ethical and moral-Virtue emphasis rather than Laozi's "De" Recall please what this thread is about. It is about Virtue as well? Somehow I missed this reply... Well then, adding another layer to the conversation, if the Tao Te Ching was also named the De Dao Ching, then, what is the Te-Virtue of the Dao? Not a simple question... Edited July 20, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted July 20, 2011 It is about Virtue as well? Somehow I missed this reply... Well then, adding another layer to the conversation, if the Tao Te Ching was also named the De Dao Ching, then, what is the Te-Virtue of the Dao? Not a simple question... The thread is "Laozi's DE". Laozi's meaning of "De". You can feel free to define "virtue" but it is likely to be "Confucian" idea of virtue, not Laozi's idea. We are trying to fully develop or discuss how Laozi has a completely different meaning than Confucius ethical or moral virtue. IT IS NOT ABOUT VIRTUE; IT IS ABOUT "DE" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 20, 2011 Tao Te Ching. The book of the Way of Tao. The way the universe works. (Has nothing to do with man-made virtues.) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
on the path Posted July 20, 2011 Hi Just thought I would add my little thoughts to the discussion about 'de'. When I got the original book from the UK of Flowing Hands (there must be thousands around the world still), the title of the Dao De Jhing Which interestingly he called 'King' meant 'the sacred book of the way and its heart'. So the word 'De' although literally translated means 'virtue', Flowing Hands says that it actually means nearer to what we know as 'heart'. But the word 'hsin' does not appear. He also says that the word Dao should be written to be more accurate like 'Dow'. One notices in Master Flowing Hands direct version that the word 'heart' is used a lot. In many Temples of the Dao, the words 'Dao hsin' are used, 'Daoist heart'. The heart being the most important vessel in spiritual practices. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted July 20, 2011 The thread is "Laozi's DE". Laozi's meaning of "De". You can feel free to define "virtue" but it is likely to be "Confucian" idea of virtue, not Laozi's idea. We are trying to fully develop or discuss how Laozi has a completely different meaning than Confucius ethical or moral virtue. IT IS NOT ABOUT VIRTUE; IT IS ABOUT "DE" Alright, sorry, I'm not trying to be a pest, but it's a legitimate question: Is there a De of Tao? or Just a Dao of De? And what are they? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) Hi Just thought I would add my little thoughts to the discussion about 'de'. When I got the original book from the UK of Flowing Hands (there must be thousands around the world still), the title of the Dao De Jhing Which interestingly he called 'King' meant 'the sacred book of the way and its heart'. So the word 'De' although literally translated means 'virtue', Flowing Hands says that it actually means nearer to what we know as 'heart'. But the word 'hsin' does not appear. He also says that the word Dao should be written to be more accurate like 'Dow'. One notices in Master Flowing Hands direct version that the word 'heart' is used a lot. In many Temples of the Dao, the words 'Dao hsin' are used, 'Daoist heart'. The heart being the most important vessel in spiritual practices. I see we posted simultaneously. This seems to shed a tad more light on my above question as to whether their is a De of Tao.. But still, the question remains as to what it means... This also sheds a bit more light on why I posted earlier (July 19, 08:52 AM) about the Heart Shen, since there always seems to be a major connection between De and Shen. Turns out the Heart Spirit (vs. the other 4 elemental spirits) is the most central to the sort of "virtues" of Taoism, such as sponteneity, illumination, intuition, insight, authenticity, and acting from a higher spirit rather than emotional habit. So having a healthy heart spirit seems to cultivate the more "Taoist virtues" you could say, above the more Confucian virtues. ie., having a healthy heart spirit allows you to spontaneously follow Dao. This is my sophomoric attempt at it, at least. Now, if y'all want a definition that does not include the word "virtue" whatsoever, then I'm hoping you've got one to bring to the table Edited July 20, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted July 20, 2011 So the word 'De' although literally translated means 'virtue', Flowing Hands says that it actually means nearer to what we know as 'heart'. But the word 'hsin' does not appear. He also says that the word Dao should be written to be more accurate like 'Dow'. One notices in Master Flowing Hands direct version that the word 'heart' is used a lot. In many Temples of the Dao, the words 'Dao hsin' are used, 'Daoist heart'. The heart being the most important vessel in spiritual practices. If anyone has seen Mantak Chia and Tao Huang's "The Secret Teachings of the Tao Te Ching" they put the Heart Character (心) on the front cover. http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Teachings-Tao-Te-Ching/dp/0892811919 Althought it is Tao Huang's English translation of the Tao Te Ching from the original Chinese Mawangdui; so Hendricks has competition now In TCM, the Heart is the "Supreme Controller"; it heals all things. My Qigong master often says the Heart Qi is very powerful (for this same reason). Sometimes in practice he will say, "bring in heart Qi". I once asked him how he recovers from expending too much Qi; He said, "I eat". I said what if you really need to get a pick me up. He said, "I breath". I asked how. He took his hands and formed a diamond shape with the index fingers and thumbs and placed his hands over his energetic heart area. The heart is considered where the Shen is housed too. So there is good reason to emphasis the heart, particularly if we are talking about the power or efficacy of the heart (which is assigned the attribute of Establishing Order) rather than just it's emotional aspects (which may imply more being virtuous). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) Alright, sorry, I'm not trying to be a pest, but it's a legitimate question: Is there a De of Tao? or Just a Dao of De? And what are they? You also mentioned the idea of "Taoist Virtues" in your next post. I don't think Taoist Virtues are the De that Lao Zi meant. But they say it is. Taoist virtues arose when Confucianism and Religious mindedness were mixed in. The earliest manuscript (Guodian) was found to not have the chapter usually used in support of The Three Great Taoist Treasures or Virtues (Chapter 67). Also the Guodian showed that Daoist text and Confucius texts were not as antagonist to each other as we see later. So clearly they were mixing early on. I still think Laozi's pure idea of De is: Power/Capacity/Efficacy/Virtuosity; not sentimental or ethical or moral. These are the words I have been using and I think Rene tends to agree. That's the definition on the table and lost in two pages of posting De of Tao: I see that as the Power/Capacity/Efficacy/Virtuosity of Dao. Here is how I often describe it: Dao is like a principle or rule (think law of gravity). The principle itself is nothing; and has not power to do anything. Once matter exists there seems to be some influence or power they have over one another. This is the principle taking effect(De). When the ten thousand arose (through the principle and power), we see all their activity in turn has an effect on everything else (principle and power). Tao of De: This is to say, "The Way of De". That is to say: How does De have it's power or capacity? It follows the principle (Dao). There is a saying: "The Way of Life is Zi Ran". Maybe we can say, The Way of De is Zi Ran too. Maybe "principle and power" are too simplistic but that is how I see it. Yes, yours is a legitimate question and the reason for the thread was to try and see if there is a LaoZi meaning to "De" which is NOT what Confucius meant (or religious Daoism follows). I think the latter folks use "De" to mean virtue as in 'goody-two-shoes' and appeal to Chapter 67, but I think that is morphing it's original meaning. Edited July 20, 2011 by dawei Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted July 20, 2011 since there always seems to be a major connection between De and Shen. Turns out the Heart Spirit (vs. the other 4 elemental spirits) is the most central to the sort of "virtues" of Taoism, such as sponteneity, illumination, intuition, insight, authenticity, and acting from a higher spirit rather than emotional habit. So having a healthy heart spirit seems to cultivate the more "Taoist virtues" you could say, above the more Confucian virtues. ie., having a healthy heart spirit allows you to spontaneously follow Dao. I follow you point. I just don't like using "virtue of Taoism" since I will think Religious Taoism. But I think you do distinguish it from Confucian virtues well enough. It's like Confucian virtues come from within while Taoist virtues come from with-out (from the source). The problem is that 'virtue' is not the same in both cases but if you use the word in say a translation, you can guess which one most will think. Another problem that is hard to avoid is the meaning of the term 'Taoist'. That will also evoke a more religious connotation and thus 'virtue' as implying ethics or morality. I have found that some who hold to the original Laozi idea of "De" as power/efficacy do not think of themselves as 'Taoist' since the name is misleading most others. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 20, 2011 Now, if y'all want a definition that does not include the word "virtue" whatsoever, then I'm hoping you've got one to bring to the table The De of Dao. The way of what is. No virtue. That's a man-made thing. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted July 20, 2011 The De of Dao. The way of what is. No virtue. That's a man-made thing. I would say, now: The De of Dao = The Power of the Uncontrived Method The Dao of De = The Uncontrived Method of Power I'm sure there's some disagreement on this though Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
on the path Posted July 20, 2011 Hi all, another thought occurred to me, 'virtue cannot exist in Daoism because as Daoist we follow the Dao. There are no rules, no virtues, no laws, no ethics, no morals etc. for when there are the great perversion begins!! De means to me the way of the essential energy that has manifested itself from the universe and beyond and stored itself in the heart!!! We are then guided by this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 20, 2011 I would say, now: The De of Dao = The Power of the Uncontrived Method The Dao of De = The Uncontrived Method of Power I'm sure there's some disagreement on this though Hehehe. Of course there will be disagreement. Where did you dig up that word "uncontrived" and the word "method"? The word "power" I can understand as I have seen it before. (The Way And Its Power). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 20, 2011 Hi all, another thought occurred to me, 'virtue cannot exist in Daoism because as Daoist we follow the Dao. There are no rules, no virtues, no laws, no ethics, no morals etc. for when there are the great perversion begins!! De means to me the way of the essential energy that has manifested itself from the universe and beyond and stored itself in the heart!!! We are then guided by this. Okay. However, (yeah, I know) we must be careful with that "no rules" idea. Sure, if we are living in our cave half way up the mountain with no one anywhere close to us then that fine. If we are living within a social construct we must comply with its rules at least to the point of not ending up in their jail. Only my rules apply when I am alone on my property. But when I leave my property or when someone comes on my property I must make allowances. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
on the path Posted July 20, 2011 Okay. However, (yeah, I know) we must be careful with that "no rules" idea. Sure, if we are living in our cave half way up the mountain with no one anywhere close to us then that fine. If we are living within a social construct we must comply with its rules at least to the point of not ending up in their jail. Only my rules apply when I am alone on my property. But when I leave my property or when someone comes on my property I must make allowances. Yes you have your points there but of course when the Dao De Jhing was written life was far more simpler, very few rules etc. so one could more easily follow the 'way'. As Lao Tzu says we must go back to a more simple life with little rules, allowing people to follow the way of 'De'. It is I feel just as relevant today as it was 2600 years ago. And ones so called rules come from 'De'. De comes from the Dao. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted July 20, 2011 dawei, hi You also mentioned the idea of "Taoist Virtues" in your next post. I don't think Taoist Virtues are the De that Lao Zi meant. But they say it is. Taoist virtues arose when Confucianism and Religious mindedness were mixed in. The earliest manuscript (Guodian) was found to not have the chapter usually used in support of The Three Great Taoist Treasures or Virtues (Chapter 67). Also the Guodian showed that Daoist text and Confucius texts were not as antagonist to each other as we see later. So clearly they were mixing early on. I still think Laozi's pure idea of De is: Power/Capacity/Efficacy/Virtuosity; not sentimental or ethical or moral. These are the words I have been using and I think Rene tends to agree. (she does) That's the definition on the table and lost in two pages of posting Well stated. ... How does De have it's power or capacity? It follows the principle (Dao). There is a saying: "The Way of Life is Zi Ran". Maybe we can say, The Way of De is Zi Ran too. Interesting idea! To me, self-so-ness reflects De. Maybe "principle and power" are too simplistic but that is how I see it. Yes, yours is a legitimate question and the reason for the thread was to try and see if there is a LaoZi meaning to "De" which is NOT what Confucius meant (or religious Daoism follows). I think the latter folks use "De" to mean virtue as in 'goody-two-shoes' and appeal to Chapter 67, but I think that is morphing it's original meaning. Well put. For me, its a bit more than 'principle and power', but that is part of it, yes. Thanks for getting things back on track (-: warm regards Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
on the path Posted July 20, 2011 Hi Rene, I think some great ideas have come out of the two pages!! For me 'De' signifies the power of the heart;'Dao Hsin', its capacity for great love, for surely this in the end is our path to enlightenment. A love of all things at one with the Dao. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted July 20, 2011 Interesting idea! To me, self-so-ness reflects De. Well put. For me, its a bit more than 'principle and power', but that is part of it, yes. Thanks for getting things back on track (-: warm regards I meant to ask.. so Zi Ran means self-so-ness.... "Well put. For me, its a bit more than 'principle and power', but that is part of it, yes." How would you say it's more? btw, you'll notice that all but one post was in fact trying to lead to a deeper answer about De, though it reverted back to using the 'V' word.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted July 20, 2011 Hi all, another thought occurred to me, 'virtue cannot exist in Daoism because as Daoist we follow the Dao. There are no rules, no virtues, no laws, no ethics, no morals etc. for when there are the great perversion begins!! De means to me the way of the essential energy that has manifested itself from the universe and beyond and stored itself in the heart!!! We are then guided by this. on the path, hi "Daoism" means to many people more than just following Dao. There are few who can get sufficient, um, information, from the intent underlying the words in The Laozi. I say 'intent' because translations vary according to the objectives and chosen mindsets of the translators. The TTC is a very very small part of the entirety of taoist cannon; and 'taoism' is delightfully resplendent with rules, virtues, laws, etc. For me, they would be unnecessary baggage. I agree with your idea that when we are truly guided by what our heart understands - our responses and choices naturally align in the direction of harmonious flow. (-: warm regards Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted July 20, 2011 I just re-read the topic to see where I might have skewed things. Well, the topic deserves a little extra fat I'd say anyway... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
