What is magic? How does magic work?

[goldisheavy]

Magic is the crystallization of intent.

 

In Taoist parlance: Where Shen goes Qi follows, where Qi goes Jing follows.

 

Next question?

 

 

Thanks Stig. This formulation is very valuable and not in any contradiction with the video. The video simply dresses it up a bit.

 

We can say that beliefs are frozen, iced intent on the spiritual level. So it's not only that as shen solidifies it becomes qi and later jing, it's also that shen itself has long-lasting structures and those can be called beliefs, but they don't have to be. We could also call those structures -- the world pattern. Calling them the world pattern gives us an idea of the effect and calling them beliefs gives us intuitive internal access.

 

Either way there is nothing out there that is self-existing in a manner that's independent of belief. That's why one's state of mind is important. I am pretty sure that a lot of Daoists get this. Zhuangzi harped about the importance of mind and illumination and not a word on substance. Daodejing beings with an analysis of the cognitive opposites, and this kind of analysis is also an anti-substantialist one. It points out that everything is defined only in relation, and that relation is not in fact substantial. Relations are governed by shen, and are ultimately flexible, although relatively they can be very hard to flex.

 

If you consider intent as a kind of energy, the more intent gets taken up in beliefs, the less you have available to do anything else. Beliefs capture and freeze a portion of intent-energy and beliefs require constant intent input to be maintained. If intent is cut off from the belief formation, then the belief formation begins to melt and lose shape and power.

Edited May 22, 2011 by goldisheavy

[rain]

Edited May 22, 2011 by rain

[rain]

 

 

If you consider intent as a kind of energy, the more intent gets taken up in beliefs, the less you have available to do anything else. Beliefs capture and freeze a portion of intent-energy and beliefs require constant intent input to be maintained. If intent is cut off from the belief formation, then it begins to melt and lose shape and power.

 

marvellous. thnx for putting it in words <3

[Taomeow]

So, to illustrate the dry theory... here's a real-life example of ganying at work, and of the co-creation work of tian-ren which is magic:

 

When I just turned 8, I found myself in a summer camp with some random girls who believed in magic and, moreover, were quite obsessed with the subject. They kept telling stories of witches and sorcerers and entities they or their family members had encountered, and I kept laughing at them for being superstitious and silly and simple, and wisecracking and disproving their stories from a materialistically raised child's perspective -- my family had people with letters after their names in four generations and believed in no such nonsense. Eventually the superstitious girls got angry and I got ostracized. I was rather miserable for a couple of days, spending my time alone in the woods, talking to dragonflies and frogs and woodpeckers. At one point I found an old abandoned well and sat beside it in the shade, feeling sad and confused. Then a turtle came and sat beside me, it looked as though it emerged FROM the stone wall of the well and was part of it. It looked into my eyes and hypnotized me, and transmitted some new ideas while at it. Too many and too fuzzy to relate, besides it was a long time ago... When the encounter was over, the turtle just wobbled around the well and disappeared. I realized that my mood was considerably better.

 

That night, timidly, I told the girls that I had a bedtime story for them, and told an "entity" story, about an entity who lived in the well and bewitched everybody who drank the water from the well. I had actually read it in a collection of Ray Bradbury's sci-fi short stories, and the well and the entity were located on Mars, but I omitted that part when telling it to the girls and instead made it into something that happened in the little town where my grandmother lived, and turned all the rocket men from the story into my grandmother's neighbors, and told it like I lived it. The girls were mesmerized. Their attitude changed immediately, and I became one of the "popular" ones and they all wanted to be best friends with me and begged for a bedtime story every night, which I delivered with ease, because I was a well-read kid with imagination.

 

I knew magic was real ever since.

[Marblehead]

Hi Taomeow,

 

Really, I am sorry I stepped on your toes earlier. But I cannot take back what I said especially as it is the truth as far as I understand.

 

Nice story. Sure, we could analyze it but that wouldn't be productive.

 

And there are a lot of people who believe in ghosts, werewolfs, vampires, aliens, etc and I don't believe in any of them.

 

I will try to tiptoe through the tulips but don't expect me to transform into Tiny Tim. Okay?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skU-jBFzXl0

[Taomeow]

Hi Taomeow,

 

Really, I am sorry I stepped on your toes earlier. But I cannot take back what I said especially as it is the truth as far as I understand.

 

Nice story. Sure, we could analyze it but that wouldn't be productive.

 

And there are a lot of people who believe in ghosts, werewolfs, vampires, aliens, etc and I don't believe in any of them.

 

I will try to tiptoe through the tulips but don't expect me to transform into Tiny Tim. Okay?

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=skU-jBFzXl0

 

Thank you, Marblehead.

You didn't step on my toes though. Could you have dropped some marbles from your head on your own?

In which case I won't blame you if you don't try to tiptoe through the tulips -- no need to let your toes suffer any extra discomfort on my behalf.

[Marblehead]

Thank you, Marblehead.

You didn't step on my toes though. Could you have dropped some marbles from your head on your own?

In which case I won't blame you if you don't try to tiptoe through the tulips -- no need to let your toes suffer any extra discomfort on my behalf.

 

It has been suggested on numerous occasions that I have lost all my marbles. I guess that is why, when I was designing the new fish pond area I made room for too areas where the background is marbles so that whenever I loose my marbles I can go out and get some more.

 

I've never tried growing tulips here. They probably wouldn't like the heat. I do have daylillies though.

[Jetsun]

Most of the magic I have witnessed is a form of hypnosis of some sort and i'm not just talking about tv magic, it usually involves a method of narrowing of the attention of someone and changing the tempo of their blood with a regression to a time when they first received a powerful emotional impression, which then leaves them completely open to the suggestion of the person pulling all the strings and under their power like they are a magician. The scary thing is that the people who really know how to do this can bring you under their spell using the tempo of their speech with a few sudden hand movements in a number of seconds.

[Taomeow]

Most of the magic I have witnessed is a form of hypnosis of some sort and i'm not just talking about tv magic, it usually involves a method of narrowing of the attention of someone and changing the tempo of their blood with a regression to a time when they first received a powerful emotional impression, which then leaves them completely open to the suggestion of the person pulling all the strings and under their power like they are a magician. The scary thing is that the people who really know how to do this can bring you under their spell using the tempo of their speech with a few sudden hand movements in a number of seconds.

 

That's quite real, but it's not magic, it's "suggestion." The TV, e.g., in addition to its visible and audible brainwashing techniques, is also programmed to emit electromagnetic frequencies identical to those the mother's brain generates when she is breastfeeding her baby. All of it is nasty but none of it is magical.

[Jetsun]

That's quite real, but it's not magic, it's "suggestion." The TV, e.g., in addition to its visible and audible brainwashing techniques, is also programmed to emit electromagnetic frequencies identical to those the mother's brain generates when she is breastfeeding her baby. All of it is nasty but none of it is magical.

 

That's true, but isn't story telling like in the example you gave another form of hypnosis? you even said the girls were "mesmerised". Or perhaps I am not understanding the concept of ganyang or the magic in your example, I guess you mean the solution came to you from your environment which is the magic aspect of it rather than the actual effect of the story telling.

[Aetherous]

Gives a whole new meaning to "boob tube".

[goldisheavy]

That's quite real, but it's not magic, it's "suggestion."

 

Suggestion is exactly what magic is. Suggestion can be arbitrarily deep. There is no limit for it. It can also be arbitrarily stable and it can last an arbitrarily long period of time. There is nothing in the mind that inherently limits the power of suggestion. Suggestion is practically limitless. You are swimming in it. You are breathing it. Your body itself is a suggestion. This planet is another suggestion. Suggestions work because everything is a suggestion.

[Taomeow]

That's true, but isn't story telling like in the example you gave another form of hypnosis? you even said the girls were "mesmerised". Or perhaps I am not understanding the concept of ganyang or the magic in your example, I guess you mean the solution came to you from your environment which is the magic aspect of it rather than the actual effect of the story telling.

 

The difference between hypnosis/suggestion and ganying/magic is that the former is arbitrarily applied, it doesn't harmonize with anything -- with the flow of the seasons, with the position of the stars and planets, with the phase of the moon, with the activities of animals and plants, sages and poets, deities and spirits... and so on. It is decided upon arbitrarily and applied via a route of abuse of power, and it doesn't enter the natural pattern to harmonize with it while creatively modifying it toward some spiritual expression or need -- no, it enters the natural pattern to bend the latter to its will, to disrupt it, to change it toward an ulterior goal.

 

Not so with the story I told. The ganying of it -- my stumbling across a well, the turtle (messenger of ganying in taoism, as I was to discover much later... for the markings on its back presented Hetu, the map of creation and the source of all taoist fundamentals...) scanning my mind for the problem and the solution, finding the story of a well somewhere there and bringing it to my conscious awareness, so I could take this well and turn it into the resonating connection between me and the girls, a connection disrupted earlier by my failure to resonate with their feelings... That's pristine magic, with minimal intervention from the practitioner-to-be, and with no disruptive suggestions involved. Of course I didn't know any of this at the time, it's only in hind sight that I can evaluate the situation as an "authentic ganying application."

 

Many moons later, I can apply ganying in much more intricate ways, and consciously at that, but it never involves suggestions or otherwise messing with anyone's free will unbeknownst to them. I just look for natural opportunities. To know when, where, how they arise, people study magic. A study of magic is a study of reality... natural reality lost to most modern people. Learning and practicing real magic takes you back to the time when it wasn't lost, when people had senses and sensibilities to notice and phase in what today they don't and can't... unless they study magic.

[goldisheavy]

The difference between hypnosis/suggestion and ganying/magic is that the former is arbitrarily applied, it doesn't harmonize with anything -- with the flow of the seasons, with the position of the stars and planets, with the phase of the moon, with the activities of animals and plants, sages and poets, deities and spirits... and so on. It is decided upon arbitrarily and applied via a route of abuse of power, and it doesn't enter the natural pattern to harmonize with it while creatively modifying it toward some spiritual expression or need -- no, it enters the natural pattern to bend the latter to its will, to disrupt it, to change it toward an ulterior goal.

 

Sorry Taomeow, but suggestion in order to be effective must absolutely be harmonized with everything. In particular it must be harmonized with the pre-existing beliefs. You believe the moon position is important? Then if I am going to suggest something to you I will need to take that into account. And so on. Suggestions work in the presence of coherent (cooperative) mind. Suggestions fizzle in an uncooperative or contradicting mind.

 

Suggestions, real magical ones, are not at all arbitrary. They are as sophisticated and as context-sensitive as the approach you talk about.

 

I've even mentioned this before. I mentioned the coherence of mind as a necessary condition. Let's not ignore this bit of information please

 

The power of suggestion is huge and there are tricks on how to lower the bar on just what sort of suggestion will be acceptable, but even with all the tricks in place, the suggestions can't be completely arbitrary (at least, not right away... you can potentially work yourself up to that level with practice, but it may take many lifetimes).

[Taomeow]

Gold,

 

I would be much more inclined to examine your POV closer if you were a practitioner, or at any rate a student, of anything that you could point out to me as the source of your theories. I am a big fan of theories that are conjoined at the hip with practices... first hand empirical knowledge is different from hearsay, in my humble experience. Theories which I didn't have a chance to explore empirically, I examine with much interest when they come from people who did have such a chance. Did you have such a chance? What did you study and practice that makes you assert what you assert?

[goldisheavy]

Gold,

 

I would be much more inclined to examine your POV closer if you were a practitioner, or at any rate a student, of anything that you could point out to me as the source of your theories. I am a big fan of theories that are conjoined at the hip with practices... first hand empirical knowledge is different from hearsay, in my humble experience. Theories which I didn't have a chance to explore empirically, I examine with much interest when they come from people who did have such a chance. Did you have such a chance? What did you study and practice that makes you assert what you assert?

 

I did have such a chance. I studied many things. In order to avoid the long list, let's limit it to one important thing that is sufficient: I've studied lucid dreaming by dreaming lucidly. I'm a very proficient lucid dreamer and have been since childhood, although later on I learned how to get more control over lucid dreaming and how to depend less on luck and chance.

 

And as for being a student, I am a student of all things. I never stop learning.

Edited May 23, 2011 by goldisheavy

[Taomeow]

I did have such a chance. I studied many things. In order to avoid the long list, let's limit it to one important thing that is sufficient: I've studied lucid dreaming by dreaming lucidly. I'm a very proficient lucid dreamer and have been since childhood, although later on I learned how to get more control over lucid dreaming and how to depend less on luck and chance.

 

And as for being a student, I am a student of all things. I never stop learning.

 

To never stop learning is to never die, as someone famous (forget who) may have implied when he said,

 

"If a man no longer has any conception of excellence above his own, his way is done, he is dead."

 

Lucid dreaming is what my system of magical training teaches how to avoid until you master lucid living.

 

What I meant was, I studied magic and I studied what you say magic is -- hypnosis (erickssonian, in particular), NLP (very early in the game -- Frogs to Princes I read fresh off the press, and then practiced on a friend who is a Freudian psychiatrist and who was absolutely pissed when I finally revealed to her what I was doing), even some gypsy techniques (far out and so efficiently mind-controlling that I suspect they might date back to Naga-Maya) and assorted trance inducing methods, including instantaneous --

 

and I assert that the two systems are worlds apart. Not "everything" is a suggestion to self or others. Magic is one thing that isn't. To illustrate:

 

I found myself in need of a new car, which wasn't part of the financial layout of my life at that point, so I did a taoist magical ritual, explaining to a certain deity what I needed the car for, why I couldn't buy it, and specifying the time frame: by the end of the month. In two weeks, elderly relatives who had a car but didn't drive anymore suddenly decided to give it to me. If anyone fell for a "suggestion," it must have been the deity, because no one else knew.

[goldisheavy]

To never stop learning is to never die, as someone famous (forget who) may have implied when he said,

 

"If a man no longer has any conception of excellence above his own, his way is done, he is dead."

 

Lucid dreaming is what my system of magical training teaches how to avoid until you master lucid living.

 

What I meant was, I studied magic and I studied what you say magic is -- hypnosis (erickssonian, in particular), NLP (very early in the game -- Frogs to Princes I read fresh off the press, and then practiced on a friend who is a Freudian psychiatrist and who was absolutely pissed when I finally revealed to her what I was doing), even some gypsy techniques (far out and so efficiently mind-controlling that I suspect they might date back to Naga-Maya) and assorted trance inducing methods, including instantaneous --

 

and I assert that the two systems are worlds apart. Not "everything" is a suggestion to self or others. Magic is one thing that isn't. To illustrate:

 

I found myself in need of a new car, which wasn't part of the financial layout of my life at that point, so I did a taoist magical ritual, explaining to a certain deity what I needed the car for, why I couldn't buy it, and specifying the time frame: by the end of the month. In two weeks, elderly relatives who had a car but didn't drive anymore suddenly decided to give it to me. If anyone fell for a "suggestion," it must have been the deity, because no one else knew.

 

Everything you say makes perfect sense to me and nothing you said above contradicts anything I am saying. I think the difference here is that you and I have different ideas about what is mind. You might think that the mind is something locked away privately in your skull. I don't think that way at all. By believing in the Taoist deity, you've magically empowered the deity to be what it is. Secondly, your belief in that deity does not contradict your other beliefs -- this means it's a coherent and effective belief for you (and likely for many others as well). And it all worked nicely.

 

So you tend to ascribe the results to the specifics of your practice, such as the specific deity, the specific ritual and so on. I ascribe the result to something less specific, to your intent and to the general principles of manifestation (intent, coherent state of mind and possibly some other principle I am forgetting). So in my way of thinking, someone can get the same result as you from an Egyptian deity. Or you can even get the same result from a completely fictional deity that's been properly empowered. So a Chaos magician can empower Mickey Mouse as a deity and get the same results if the empowerment is good enough.

 

This in no way means that the Taoist deities (or vajrayana deities, or Egyptian, etc.) have no value. They do. The value they have is that they have the weight of tradition behind them, which makes them more believable and more acceptable for many people. And this is important. When something is more believable than something else, we can say it is more coherent with your mentality. And like I said, coherency is critical for magic. So if Taoist deities sound most plausible and most interesting to you, they will be the most powerful and the most effective deities for you and there is no practical reason to change anything for you. Key word "practical." If you're not content with something that just works, if you want to know how it all works under the hood in a more general and more universal sense, there is a good reason to keep investigating.

 

Happy rituals!

Edited May 23, 2011 by goldisheavy

[Marblehead]

Hi Taomeow,

 

I just finished cleaning one of my fish pond filters. I decided to have some music to listen to while I was doing that. I selected my collection of soft rock music from the 1960s. The second group to play was The Lovin' Spoonful. Their second song to play was "Do You Believe In Magic". My thoughts immediately went to you.

 

For your pleasure:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o89iKsKw19M

[manitou]

wonderful discussion....

 

Maybe it would be helpful to define what exact magic we're talking about? It seems like there's a couple different kinds, and I'm not sure which one we're talking about.

 

Are you talking about the intentional magic that a magician would cause to happen by sleight of hand? Or manipulating people's attention in one direction while the real action is happening elsewhere?

 

Or are we talking about the magic of wu-wei? Of not-doing? Castaneda would also call this 'setting your intent' (on a result) and then not-doing until the conditions come about.

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[三江源]

I really ask myself more how to make people believe in Magic.

When you talk to people about doing Qigong Forms they not say much.

But when you say you transfer it across the ocean they at look you :"Muh? "

 

Q

 

Absolutely so. What I find amazing is that there are people on this board who also go "Muh? "

How to make more people believe in magic.

 

Maybe they no believe until they experience, and they no experience until they able to feel..

[goldisheavy]

wonderful discussion....

 

Maybe it would be helpful to define what exact magic we're talking about? It seems like there's a couple different kinds, and I'm not sure which one we're talking about.

 

Are you talking about the intentional magic that a magician would cause to happen by sleight of hand? Or manipulating people's attention in one direction while the real action is happening elsewhere?

 

Or are we talking about the magic of wu-wei? Of not-doing? Castaneda would also call this 'setting your intent' (on a result) and then not-doing until the conditions come about.

 

Wait a second. You think this discussion is wonderful but you don't know what the topic of discussion is?

[Taomeow]

Wait a second. You think this discussion is wonderful but you don't know what the topic of discussion is?

 

That's because some people like talking or listening to other people regardless of the subject matter (and by the same token, dislike talking or listening to some other people regardless of the subject matter). Manitou might enjoy listening to you, e.g., regardless of what you're talking about.

 

I for one am fully capable of enjoying talking/listening to anyone going on about anything as long as they don't put words in my mouth and then argue with what I never asserted. (E.g., I'm referring to your "you think that" and "you believe that," e.g. you tell me what I think of my mind -- locked in the brain, is it? -- and this and that... When you say, "I, Goldisheavy, think that" and "I, Goldisheavy, believe this" instead, it's much more fun.)

[goldisheavy]

Absolutely so. What I find amazing is that there are people on this board who also go "Muh? "

How to make more people believe in magic.

 

Maybe they no believe until they experience, and they no experience until they able to feel..

 

 

People have trouble believing in magic because a belief in magic is just one belief of many. Beliefs exist in networks. If we want to discuss the entire network of beliefs that a person holds we could call it a mindset. Some of these beliefs can be articulated and the person is aware that one indeed believes such and such. Some beliefs are silent, tacit and implicit, those are the beliefs that are difficult to articulate and difficult to be aware of.

 

So when we present a belief in magic as a possibility, in order for this belief to be accepted it has to cohere well (mix well, cooperate well, work well, non-contradict) with all or most of the other beliefs. So, for example, if the person strongly believes in physicalism, then a belief in magic will directly contradict that. When I say "strongly believes" I don't mean the person stands on street corners and yells out about physicalism. Often the belief in physicalism is an implicit one, it's a deep one and not many people can even articulate it fully and clearly when asked. And that's only just one example of a contradiction. There are many ways how a belief in magic can be a contradictory belief for many people.

 

When it comes to people, each person has a slightly different degree of tolerance for mind compartmentalization. Now compartmentalization is a big word, but it means something simple. A person with compartmentalized mind is someone whose mindset is split into sections and beliefs must only cohere within each section, but the sections themselves are allowed to contradict each other. Most people have some degree of compartmentalization. Some people have highly compartmentalized minds. We can tell this is the case when people profess seemingly contradictory beliefs without too much discomfort. Such people are usually dumb. They rate lower on the IQ scale. The reason they can tolerate a high degree of compartmentalization is because they don't bother to investigate, to introspect, to compare and to align their beliefs, to see how they all fit together, whether any of them make any sense or not, etc. An intelligent person is more likely to check one's own beliefs for consistency (coherency) and for soundness against experience.

 

So there are essentially two factors that can lead the person to accept a belief in magic:

 

1. The person's other beliefs are aligned and non-contradicting toward the belief in magic.

 

2. The person's mind is highly compartmentalized and the person doesn't much care about the quality of the beliefs they accept. This kind of person is tolerant to holding all kinds of contradictory beliefs and is often confused for that reason.

 

As you can see, it's not all gravy. So when you present your belief in magic to someone, if that someone accepts your belief for reason #2, that's a tragedy. They're accepting the belief out of sickness of mind, basically. This is of course all my opinion, it goes without saying. So in my opinion, only #1 is a legitimate reason to accept a belief in magic.

 

In my opinion a belief in magic can be a very reasonable and logically sound belief. I believe in magic and I also think I am a very reasonable person. My mindset is low on compartmentalization, or so I think (everyone is welcome to disagree and argue with me about it). So my belief in magic is a legitimate one and not an unhealthy one.

 

So if you want others to accept a belief in magic in a healthy way, you have to ask what are some other beliefs that a person holds that contradict the belief in magic. Then you can try to either use reason to argue against those contradicting beliefs (this is what I often do), or you can invite the person to an experience where the experience itself will challenge the belief that contradicts the idea of magic (this is hard to do online and it's hard to do without the person having a huge amount of trust in you to follow you into an unfamiliar experience on your suggestion).

 

I believe I've now provided an exhaustive answer to your question. That's going to cost you $100 dollars. Where do I send the bill? Just kidding!! I'm only kidding in this paragraph people.

Edited May 23, 2011 by goldisheavy