Taoism Vs Buddhism

[rex]

Which blog?

'scuse me for sticking my nose in but it may be this one:

 

http://atouchofancientszhouyi.blogspot.com/

 

Actually its interesting to see which web pages link to this forum by using this google search:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=link%3Awww.thetaobums.com&hl=en

[C T]

[forestofemptiness]

All snarkiness aside, this is perhaps one of the clearest explanations I have seen of the Tao. Nor do I think that it is inconsistent with Buddhist teaching. I think it is a good point to ask, "Why doesn't the universe manifest randomly?"

 

I keep imploring members here to not to allow Vajrahridaya to elect himself as the Buddhist pope, no matter how many posts he make. His view, like my view, is simply ONE view.

 

 

You see, as I have expounded to you ad nauseum (that was a pun of your current situation .... hahahaha!!! ), Taoists observed that the law of cause and effect (i.e. Buddhist dependent origination) wasn't random -- it actually played out according to an observable and measurable cyclic pattern. After eons of observation this cyclic patterning was formalized as the Ten Celestial Stems and Twelve Terrestrial Branches. This patterning was called the Tao ... The Way. In other words the Way in which universal life transformed from one phase to the other (my goodness does this mean that Taoists may possibly have achieved a greater realization then the Buddhists who are stuck with their limited belief of cause and effect??? Hahahah!!!).

Edited November 8, 2010 by forestofemptiness

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. I don't care what anyone says. "Cause and effect" rules!!!!!

 

Bang!!!! (The big one, you know.)

[Birch]

"Someone is taking a discussion on differences a bit personally?"

 

It might be. I think I'm just tired/bored with the same discussion coming from the same folks. It doesn't seem helpful. Although I liked Stig's post. That was helpful to me. So thanks for yours because it got me Stig's.

 

I threw at flower at you because I thought you ought to know better - well, in my head you do, but maybe you don't.

[Vajrahridaya]

In discourses on Tao Forums, never discount the remote possibility that some members may know more than you, your parents, and your teachers on the profound subjects of Tao and/or the Zhouyi.

 

Vice versa buddy.

 

Do you know that many Yi aficionados in the West have read the Yi and made divinations years before you were born? And quite a number of them who live in the Americas and Europe regularly visit my blog perhaps to learn a thing or two. Perhaps you and your mum can visit it too and laugh at my ignorance, since I only know ‘a touch of the ancients, buddhas, immortals and the Zhouyi’.

 

I'm talking more about Buddhism. None the less. You're just making unfounded assertions on how much you know.

 

Buddhist students and masters can talk about emptiness and forms 24/7 throughout the years without knowing much about the phenomena.

 

You're not talking to someone like that.

 

If their teachings involve mind games then reading Zhuangzi is fine. If their teachings involve ‘lucid dreaming’ and visualization, then they could stumble onto bypaths no matter how high they think their cultivation level is. If they do not know how to return to the Path, they could be lost for at least ten years or more, if they have not passed on by then.

 

Uh hu...

 

It is all rhetoric, if they cannot see forms and emptiness and their changes. Therefore go and reread the Buddhist sutras and scriptures again, if Buddhist students and masters want to return to the Path, so to speak.

 

Yea, yea...

 

We're on a board for discussion, not making assumptions and unfounded assertions about people we don't know, arising dependent upon feeling insecure that their precious universalist trip is being challenged.

 

I must say though Allan, you do come across as a cheery fellow non-the-less. Also, nice blog! Taoism in my view integrates very easily with Buddhism, probably the most easiest other than the ancient Bon of Tibet.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

(my goodness does this mean that Taoists may possibly have achieved a greater realization then the Buddhists who are stuck with their limited belief of cause and effect??? Hahahah!!!).

 

Obviously not, because of emptiness.

 

"Noooo!!!" screams the Buddhist, "That means that Tao stands on its own and that means we are reifying Tao and that means we are making an originating point of the universe and that means ..."

 

Indeed. That means you are stuck in absorption and re-expression, as Earth dissolves into Heaven and Heaven into the mysterious unknown that hasn't been penetrated by the insight of dependent origination and stays mysterious and transcendent. So at the end of a cosmic eon, your so called immortals in the heavens are resolved into ignorance once again to be expressed in forgetting to do the process all over again during the next cosmic eon/cycle.

 

You know what? I don't rightly give a sod what your Buddhist sensibilities make of it. Tao is Tao and there you go. It is a Way of Universal extension and return. Ride with it (i.e. become one with Tao) and empirical proof shows that your life becomes more healthy, harmonious, and happy.

 

That doesn't mean it's still not trapped in Samsara (unconscious absorption and re-expression or rebirth or Universal extension and return recycling program, over and over and over and over and over again).

 

Alas.

 

The Buddha did state that all the mundane siddhis (super natural and natural powers) can all be attained through various means, but liberation from unconscious rebirth only comes for those with penetrative insight of dependent origination/emptiness. You are of course free to not believe that to be so.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Marblehead]

Actually, I think the discussions are still in order at this time because of the thread title.

 

Whether I accept them or not, Vaj's posts are valid and to the subject just as other's have been.

 

We will always find these disagreements when we discuss the differences between Buddhism and Taoism.

 

And, of course, we who are making comments understand that our understanding is the correct one. That's just the way we humans are.

 

Yep. There are differences between Buddhism and Taoism. But we need remember that there are many who hold to both philosophies simultaneously. That is an indicator that they both are not exclusive of the other.

 

Everyone please try to be nice so that the moderators don't have to get involved in this thread.

 

Peace & Love to Y'all!

[Vajrahridaya]

As a standalone tradition? Ok. But... what if it's not a standalone tradition?

 

Please explain? It does at times seem to be a mix and match from many different sources, some of the Chinese classics, Chinese medicine and martial arts, much of which is a cross pollination starting from early on between India and China from BC times. Of course the Chinese took martial arts to plateaus India never did.

 

It also always depends upon the individual, as the individual internalizes and expands on concepts through personal experience.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Everyone please try to be nice so that the moderators don't have to get involved in this thread.

 

Peace & Love to Y'all!

 

Thanks Marble! I wonder if you have a bald head to kiss?

[Vajrahridaya]

 

I threw at flower at you because I thought you ought to know better - well, in my head you do, but maybe you don't.

 

I like flowers so I'll take it and place it on my Puja regardless of the intention behind it's throw!

 

P.S.

 

I was just saying that sometimes it feels on here that we all have to sit around the camp fire singing "Kumbaya" while stroking each others egos before we can have a view challenging discussion? Otherwise panties get twisted and feathers get ruffled? For all it's politics, I do sometimes miss E-Sangha where Buddhists freely challenged each others views. This is the only decent, and fun forum that I can find where views are expressed, or challenged, and experiences are shared with freedom. Which makes Tao Bums pretty awesome!

Edited November 8, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Marblehead]

Thanks Marble! I wonder if you have a bald head to kiss?

 

Hehehe. Nope. Even in my old age I am fully haired. (That sounds wierd.) (I do buzz shave my face and head about once a month - less frequently in the winter.)

 

And besides, even though I have no problem with hugging a man I think the kisses would be just a little bit too much for me to deal with. Thanks anyhow.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

For Heaven and Earth to evolve and transform in accordance to Tao (i.e. the cyclic patterning of the Universe) then Tao must have preceded Heaven and Earth. This makes sense right? So the way of Heaven and Earth is dependent on Tao ... correct? So what is Tao dependent on?

 

 

I can understand if Tao is merely being defined as the way of mutually dependent things that arise through endless variations in cycles since beginningless time, yet is empty of inherent being, and is merely a way encapsulating through concept that which is really empty. As the Buddha taught, there is not one Dharma that has inherent essence, or self standing beingness.

 

But, to make it an ontological essence deep within the collective and (more importantly for you as the practitioner) personal unconscious, sounds like making of it a fun box of mysterious churning's that one is expressed from and returns to over and over again, considering it the truly self existing basis and conscious law giver of it all.

 

I don't think that considering the Tao or Way in this fashion will exhaust all possible ignorance for you as an individual, even if while on Earth one has the spiritual siddhis (powers) of spontaneous joy and even ascends to a heaven realm after for many eons.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

And besides, even though I have no problem with hugging a man I think the kisses would be just a little bit too much for me to deal with. Thanks anyhow.

 

Well... it seems that my expressions are hard for many to deal with anyhow... so you get a kiss planted on your full head of hair anyway.

[Vajrahridaya]

"Why doesn't the universe manifest randomly?"

 

Because it's following the effects left over from previous universal cycles as causes for this one. There is really no primal predecessor or first cause.

[Marblehead]

Because it's following the effects left over from previous universal cycles as causes for this one. There is really no primal predecessor or first cause.

 

Of course, I have a different understanding regarding this. There was nothing left over even if there was a previous universe. Just prior to this one there was only Singularity.

 

The Big Bang happened because Singularity could not reduce itself into anything smaller. There was no choice but to expand.

 

I have no idea if it was a random event or not though. Wouldn't that require the processes of nature (Tzujan) to exist outside the realm of Singularity? That is getting to close to a concept of a god and that is not a comfortable consideration for me.

[Vajrahridaya]

Of course, I have a different understanding regarding this. There was nothing left over even if there was a previous universe. Just prior to this one there was only Singularity.

 

The Big Bang happened because Singularity could not reduce itself into anything smaller. There was no choice but to expand.

 

I have no idea if it was a random event or not though. Wouldn't that require the processes of nature (Tzujan) to exist outside the realm of Singularity? That is getting to close to a concept of a god and that is not a comfortable consideration for me.

 

Well that compressed singularity is considered by Buddhists, the compressed effects left over from the previous universe just waiting for conditions to arise for it to blossom. Though in this case, like a seed, but it's still not considered an inherent singularity, as it is filled with infinite potential left over from endless universal cycles connected to other dimensions or other universes active in other dimensions right now. This is too complex to conceptualize perfectly by me. But, this seed state is like the effects left in your unconscious mind from things experienced previously that arise as subtle impressions in your subconscious ongoing dream state, governing your conscious mind and these impressions come to light through your conscious mind and physical actions only when conditions arise that allow for that to happen.

 

It's kind of how we are all individual universes existing in our own dimension arising co-dependently with other individual universes that are individual people, animals, sentient beings. Because one individual dies or collapses, doesn't mean that another doesn't continue to exist on this paradigm, or that the one that collapsed on this paradigm doesn't continue in another. As in the concept of the individual mind stream moving on into another incarnation or dimension of experience beyond this seeming realm of experience?

 

So, supposedly, there are endlessly connected universes and this universe is not the only one active right now, so when one universe goes into collapse, there are still others in other dimensions, yet connected too that still radiate energies that cross-effect other universes. So on and so forth endlessly. All these endless amount of universes or cosmic cycles are constantly effecting each other like various levels of consciousness.

 

Eh, my explanation is so imperfect. I tried.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[adept]

Well that compressed singularity is considered by Buddhists, the compressed effects left over from the previous universe just waiting for conditions to arise for it to blossom. Though in this case, like a seed, but it's still not considered an inherent singularity, as it is filled with infinite potential left over from endless universal cycles connected to other dimensions or other universes active in other dimensions right now. This is too complex to conceptualize perfectly by me. But, this seed state is like the effects left in your unconscious mind from things experienced previously that arise as subtle impressions in your subconscious ongoing dream state, governing your conscious mind and these impressions come to light through your conscious mind and physical actions only when conditions arise that allow for that to happen.

 

It's kind of how we are all individual universes existing in our own dimension arising co-dependently with other individual universes that are individual people, animals, sentient beings. Because one individual dies or collapses, doesn't mean that another doesn't continue to exist on this paradigm, or that the one that collapsed on this paradigm doesn't continue in another. As in the concept of the individual mind stream moving on into another incarnation or dimension of experience beyond this seeming realm of experience?

 

So, supposedly, there are endlessly connected universes and this universe is not the only one active right now, so when one universe goes into collapse, there are still others in other dimensions, yet connected too that still radiate energies that cross-effect other universes. So on and so forth endlessly. All these endless amount of universes or cosmic cycles are constantly effecting each other like various levels of consciousness.

 

Eh, my explanation is so imperfect. I tried.

 

 

The Avatamsaka would be a good explanation.

[Marblehead]

Eh, my explanation is so imperfect. I tried.

 

For me it is fine because we have had this discussion before. I simply posted my understanding so that others could see an alternate view.

 

I imagine you and I will forever hold to our current understanding. And that's okay too.

[Marblehead]

The Avatamsaka would be a good explanation.

 

Not for me it wouldn't because I have no idea what you are talking about.

[adept]

Not for me it wouldn't because I have no idea what you are talking about.

Avatamsaka.

[Marblehead]

Avatamsaka.

 

Okay. I have heard something similar to this mentioned by today's cosmologists and I didn't accept their explanation either. Oh well.

 

But I do still remain open to discussion of the possibility of more than one universe at any given moment in time(s). Even alternate universes operation within alternate processes of nature (Tzujan; the laws of physics).

[majc]

Please explain? It does at times seem to be a mix and match from many different sources, some of the Chinese classics, Chinese medicine and martial arts, much of which is a cross pollination starting from early on between India and China from BC times. Of course the Chinese took martial arts to plateaus India never did.

 

It also always depends upon the individual, as the individual internalizes and expands on concepts through personal experience.

Clearly you have a good memory for facts. But dude, you use a lot of words.

 

If you have constructed in your mind an idea or image of what 'Tao' is - an image which you're able to contrast and compare with another image (which you have also constructed, in this case based on Buddhist literature), then you have already contradicted, or ignored, the very first line of the Tao Te Ching.

 

The Tao that can be told / described / 'image-d' is not the Tao.

 

See, the movement of the Tao includes the coming into existence of Earth, and it includes (right now on that Earth) the ongoing construction of images of all sorts of shapes and sizes inside homosapien heads.

 

Buddhist imagery is a fantastic example!

[Guest allan]

[Guest allan]