buscon Posted August 20, 2010 No. There is more to it than that. That was the breeding and training grounds for the Islamic terrorists. Peace & Love! Try to count the number of civils killed looking for the terrorists: that's enough for me for saying no to the war. Moreover I see no change in Afghanistan, or I actually think that it's even worst. If USA was really interested in freedom in Afghanistan, why did they supported against USSR ? has Afghanistan become "bad and intolerant" just after the 9/11 ? Do you know how many undemocratic situations is supporting USA in all over the world ? Terrorists exist, of course, but they become the new excuse to make wars for the US. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted August 20, 2010 (edited) Try to count the number of civils killed looking for the terrorists: that's enough for me for saying no to the war. Moreover I see no change in Afghanistan, or I actually think that it's even worst. If USA was really interested in freedom in Afghanistan, why did they supported against USSR ? has Afghanistan become "bad and intolerant" just after the 9/11 ? Do you know how many undemocratic situations is supporting USA in all over the world ? Terrorists exist, of course, but they become the new excuse to make wars for the US. Right -- Professor emeritus Peter Dale Scott knows the real reason why the U.S. is attacking Afghanistan -- Oil and drugs! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8z4348MYYA My next book will be American War Machine: Deep Politics, the CIA's Global Drug Connection, and the Road to Afghanistan, forthcoming in Fall 2010 from Rowman & Littlefield. Click here to order it from Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/American-War-Machine-Connection-Afghanistan/dp/0742555941/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_6 This provocative, thoroughly researched book explores the covert aspects of U.S. foreign policy. Prominent political analyst Peter Dale Scott marshals compelling evidence to expose the extensive trail of sanctioned but illicit violence in politics and state affairs, especially when related to America's long-standing involvement with the global drug traffic. Beginning with Laos in the 1950s, Americans have become inured to the CIA's alliances with drug traffickers (and their bankers) to install and sustain right-wing governments. The pattern has repeated itself in Italy, Mexico, Thailand, Nigeria, Venezuela, Colombia, Peru, Chile, Panama, Honduras, Turkey, Pakistan, and now Afghanistan_to name only those countries dealt with in this book. Scott shows that the relationship of U.S. intelligence operators and agencies to the global drug traffic, and to other international criminal networks, deserves greater attention in the debate over the U.S. presence in Afghanistan. To date, America's government and policies have done more to foster rather than to curtail the drug trade. The so-called war on terror, and in particular the war in Afghanistan, constitute only the latest chapter in this disturbing story. Edited August 20, 2010 by drewhempel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted August 20, 2010 No. There is more to it than that. That was the breeding and training grounds for the Islamic terrorists. Peace & Love! That is what the propagandists wanted everyone to believe. ralis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 20, 2010 Well now it's the breeding and training ground for mutated radioactive genetically damaged soldiers: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. War ain't pretty. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted August 20, 2010 (edited) We are not fighting traditional armies anymore. Terrorist cells have no national affiliations. Who are we going to nuke? There is no deterrent for them. Their goal is simple: to bring back the good old days of Muslim supremacy and for everyone to be Muslim. And they are willing to die for their goal. Jihad, holy war, is part of their book and their book is unquestionable since it is the literal word of God as spoken through their Prophet. How do you fight that? I'm not saying all Muslims are hell-bent on taking over the world but there many sympathetic to the cause. My dad worked with an Egyptian guy for 15 years. This guy was very 'American,' and yet one day he admitted that he would join the 'cause' if he needed to. He was not sad at all when 9/11 happened. Now think about how many moderate Muslims there are in US and Europe. No threat my ass. I know that the best cure for this problem is education and secularization. This is the best cure for any fundamentalism. But at the same time we cannot ignore the imminent threats out there, put our heads in the sand, get rid of our defenses, and hope that these problems go away. How is that pragmatic in the slightest? We need to focus on a long-term solution that does not involve just killing terrorists, since this of course just creates more, but as a short term solution it's all we have. I think you are being paranoid! The Islamic fundamentalists don't have the means to take over the world. Further, why are you buying into their propaganda? This is the kind of nonsense that inflames this issue. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/28/dove-world-outreach-cente_n_662450.html ralis Edited August 20, 2010 by ralis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted August 20, 2010 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. War ain't pretty. Peace & Love! Deep Politics is worse than blowback -- soldiers are just idiots being sacrificed by the elites who fund both sides of a war for larger, more secret means. Knowledge is power. Fighting is idiotic. If you want to learn about Vietnam read "At War with Asia" by Noam Chomsky Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 20, 2010 Try to count the number of civils killed looking for the terrorists: that's enough for me for saying no to the war. Moreover I see no change in Afghanistan, or I actually think that it's even worst. If USA was really interested in freedom in Afghanistan, why did they supported against USSR ? has Afghanistan become "bad and intolerant" just after the 9/11 ? Do you know how many undemocratic situations is supporting USA in all over the world ? Terrorists exist, of course, but they become the new excuse to make wars for the US. I can't argue against anything you presented here. Yes, it is very sad that there are innocents being killed in that war. And I agree, the situation has not improved but at least the terrorist organizations have been greatly disorganized as a result of the UN, I repeat, the UN, not just the US being there. Yes, I always felt that the US was wrong for butting into that when the USSR was there. We are actually part of the problem that exists today. And I agree that a full scale war is not the way to deal with this problem. But who am I to say? Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted August 20, 2010 (edited) I can't argue against anything you presented here. Yes, it is very sad that there are innocents being killed in that war. And I agree, the situation has not improved but at least the terrorist organizations have been greatly disorganized as a result of the UN, I repeat, the UN, not just the US being there. Yes, I always felt that the US was wrong for butting into that when the USSR was there. We are actually part of the problem that exists today. And I agree that a full scale war is not the way to deal with this problem. But who am I to say? Peace & Love! Time to get an education Marblehead! http://www.amazon.com/At-war-Asia-Noam-Chomsky/dp/0394462106 In 1970, Noam Chomsky urged Americans to confront and avoid the dangers inherent in the American invasion of Southeast Asia (North Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos). Looking back 30 years later, we still share Chomsky's concern: Will this new war lead us to an ever-expanding battle against the people of the world and increasing repression at home? Drawing in part on his visits to Asia and in part on his extensive reading in the field, Chomsky discusses the historical, political and economic reasons behind our involvement in a Southeast Asian land war. Chomsky examines the impact of our involvement on United States military strategy and what its eventual effect will be in America and abroad. While the people of the world are clearly the victims of U.S. foreign policy, the citizens of the United States have not been able to escape harm. In an eerie prediction of current events, Chomsky states: It is unlikely that we can continue indefinitely on this mad course without severe domestic depression and regimentation. For those who hope to rule the world, to win what some scholars like to call 'the game of world domination,' American policies in Southeast Asia may appear rational. To the citizens of the empire, at home and abroad, they bring only pain and sorrow. In this respect we are reliving the history of earlier imperial systems. We have had many opportunities to escape this trap and still do today. Failure to take advantages of these opportunities, continued submission to indoctrination, and indifference to the fate of others, will surely spell disaster for much of the human race. At War With Asia is an indispensable guide to understanding both the past and current logic of imperial force. http://books.google.com/books?id=FajmTh_BmEkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22at+war+with+asia%22&source=bl&ots=ZPpmU0OmTX&sig=YMhOZSpgaJU2L5QVyeoB3lKEpYQ&hl=en&ei=c99uTLf-C4j-ngfevqzNBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false Edited August 20, 2010 by drewhempel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 20, 2010 Right -- Professor emeritus Peter Dale Scott knows the real reason why the U.S. is attacking Afghanistan -- Oil and drugs! I will disagree with that but I will not discuss it. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 20, 2010 That is what the propagandists wanted everyone to believe. ralis No. That is a fact. It was verified many times over. Even the French agreed and they never agree with anyone. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted August 20, 2010 No. That is a fact. It was verified many times over. Even the French agreed and they never agree with anyone. Peace & Love! Gee where can I get in on the $$ http://costofwar.com/ Ah the honor of being an imperialist lackie! Watch your tax dollars funding drug lords and oil merchants. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted August 20, 2010 I will disagree with that but I will not discuss it. Peace & Love! Too bad the pacifists won't protect us from the evil-doers. You're either with us or against us! I love my country that's why I'm part of a genocide machine -- otherwise the rich at home which I hate would be attacked. The rich pacifists just don't know what honor means -- that's why I must go out and get killed for the rich!! haha. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 20, 2010 Deep Politics is worse than blowback -- soldiers are just idiots being sacrificed by the elites who fund both sides of a war for larger, more secret means. Knowledge is power. Fighting is idiotic. If you want to learn about Vietnam read "At War with Asia" by Noam Chomsky I don't need to learn about Vietnam. I was there. So you recommend taking no action against the terrorists? Like we did at the beginning of their efforts? That is why 9/11 was able to happen. We didn't take them seriously. If someone says that they are going to kill you and you know they have the means and the desire to do so it is highly recommended to pay attention. It is also highly recommended that the first move they make toward effecting their threat you take them out as efficiently as possible. The US did not do this and this is why we have the problems we have today. This is all beside the fact that both Clinton and Bush had their heads up their butt regarding the threat and who the enemy really was. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shaolin Posted August 20, 2010 Western expansionalism , foreign policy and forced democracy are the cause of the rise of islamic fundemantalism. 911 was a re action not a cause. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 20, 2010 Time to get an education Marblehead! I don't need to be educated in stupidity. I was once there but have risen above that. Why would I want to listen to a fear monger? Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted August 20, 2010 Here is a place to get started reading on the relationship of Afghanistan and oil. http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHI203A.html ralis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted August 20, 2010 (edited) I don't need to learn about Vietnam. I was there. So you recommend taking no action against the terrorists? Like we did at the beginning of their efforts? That is why 9/11 was able to happen. We didn't take them seriously. If someone says that they are going to kill you and you know they have the means and the desire to do so it is highly recommended to pay attention. It is also highly recommended that the first move they make toward effecting their threat you take them out as efficiently as possible. The US did not do this and this is why we have the problems we have today. This is all beside the fact that both Clinton and Bush had their heads up their butt regarding the threat and who the enemy really was. Peace & Love! http://www.veteransforpeace.org/about_vfp.vp.html Obviously you were in Vietnam -- that's exactly why I posted "At War with Asia" -- for you to learn about it. It is unlikely that we can continue indefinitely on this mad course without severe domestic depression and regimentation. For those who hope to rule the world, to win what some scholars like to call 'the game of world domination,' American policies in Southeast Asia may appear rational. To the citizens of the empire, at home and abroad, they bring only pain and sorrow. In this respect we are reliving the history of earlier imperial systems. We have had many opportunities to escape this trap and still do today. Failure to take advantages of these opportunities, continued submission to indoctrination, and indifference to the fate of others, will surely spell disaster for much of the human race. [DVD] sticky icon$19.95 87 Minute documentary on the Vietnam War. Shows how the U.S. government killed more than 3 million Vietnamese in their War of Independence. Starts with the history of the conflict from WWII, the defeat of the French, how the American people were lied into the conflict in the Gulf of Tonkin. Then shows how the killing was done. Includes testimony from soldiers and Vietnamese. Narrated by Martin Sheen. Written, Produced and Directed by Clay Claiborne. Edited August 20, 2010 by drewhempel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted August 20, 2010 Western expansionalism , foreign policy and forced democracy are the cause of the rise of islamic fundemantalism. 911 was a re action not a cause. The Arabs have hated the U.S. since the early 1900's due to oil exploration on their "sacred ground". ralis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted August 20, 2010 (edited) Try "the 1700s due to being infidels" -- it was plainly stated as such prior to the first Barbary war. Prior to that, they hated the British, Spanish, French & Italians et al... America's first war: http://www.legendsofamerica.com/na-timeline.html Although Columbus also wrote that "they are the best people in the world and above all the gentlest," his record of the first encounter between Europeans and New World Indians was filled with accounts of enslavement, murder, and rape King Philip's War erupts in New England between colonists and Native Americans as a result of tensions over colonist's expansionist activities. The bloody war rages up and down the Connecticut River valley in Massachusetts and in the Plymouth and Rhode Island colonies, eventually resulting in 600 English colonials being killed and 3,000 Native Americans, including women and children on both sides. King Philip (the colonist's nickname for Metacomet, chief of the Wampanoags) is hunted down and killed on August 12, 1676, in a swamp in Rhode Island, ending the war in southern New England and ending the independent power of Native Americans there. In New Hampshire and Maine, the Saco Indians continue to raid settlements for another year and a half. Edited August 20, 2010 by drewhempel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 20, 2010 Gee where can I get in on the $$ http://costofwar.com/ Ah the honor of being an imperialist lackie! Watch your tax dollars funding drug lords and oil merchants. So what do you propose? Just sit on our fat butts and let the world go to shit? If you don't stand up for something that means you are sitting on your butt. To stand up for doing nothing doesn't work. You and everyone else should know that. I have never suggested that the UN is doing the right think in Afghanistan. But at least they are trying to stop the terrorists. That is more than the peacenics do, while sitting on their as smoking weed and than when something goes wrong in their little world they are the ones who cry the loudest. Stop all the freaking crying you people and if you really think you have better answers get you ass up to DC or to the UN and tell them how you think they can bring the entire world into an era of peace and contentment. Sure, all you have to do is tell everyone to be nice and automatically, because it is "your" words, everyone is going to listen and do exactly what you say. Come on people!!!! Wake the freak up. Those people who blew away the Trade Center don't give a shit about what you think. In fact they stated publicly that all civilians of the Western world were valid targets in their war. Yes, they are fighting a war. A war that they think is honest and just. Real life is not that Garden of Eden y'all have heard about. There are people out there who would kill you for twenty bucks. Oh, sure, it is pretty to be saying all these anti-war things. It makes one sound honorable. No more wars. Just kill only the ones who need killing on a single individual basis. You know, they all will proudly line up and wait until their name is called so they can be stoned to death or beat to death with a shoe. Sure they will. And we sit here safe and secure complaining about the efforts to keep us safe and secure. Sad, you know. So y'all just go ahead and smoke your weed and pretend that the world is full of only peaceful and loving people while our service men and women are putting their life on the line to keep your ass safe. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted August 20, 2010 Might wanna take another look. The cause of the rise of "Islamic fundamentalism" traces directly back to the 8th century. People tend to forget that America's first war as a new nation was in response to attacks by "radical Muslims". For some reason, some people ignore that fact, as well as the role played (and the motivations thereof) by Islamic nations in both world wars, and pretend that "radical Islam" appeared out of nowhere in the 1970s, '80s or '90s. These same people tend to have a twisted memory of the history of the nation of Israel, too, I've noticed. The Crusades and Holy Wars were from circa 1095 to 1291. I thought that was the rise of Islamic fundamentalism. Refresh my history of America's early attacks by Muslims. I know exactly the history of Israel. ralis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 20, 2010 Gee where can I get in on the $$ http://costofwar.com/ Ah the honor of being an imperialist lackie! Watch your tax dollars funding drug lords and oil merchants. Join the military, volunteer for service in Afghanistan and you will get lots of money. And it's such an easy job too. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
