Qi is NOT Energy

[宁]

Now the questions remain:

 

~ What, in the human being, is the "rice" or "uncooked seed"?

~ What is the process of "cooking" this seed?

~ If Qi is the "process" of awareness interfacing with physical being, what role does the breath have?

 

I think your description is closest to what I am looking for. I forgot to mention that the question what is Qi comes in pair with another question that I kept to myself only.

Maybe it's the right time to voice it out: what are the real characteristics that make Nei Qi and Wai Qi be different.

 

I'll try my luck with the last question that you put out, Stig.

If you look at the Hindu system, the overall energy is comprised of a number of energies: prana, apana, upana, etc. They sum up to the concept of overall energy. In this context, breath is only a part of Qi, more likely, a manifestation.

 

These questions, plus the initial one, are not to be treated too simplistic, imho. It's silly to practice and have no idea what you practice with...

 

I hope others can share their views:)

[steve]

 

Now the questions remain:

 

~ What, in the human being, is the "rice" or "uncooked seed"?

~ What is the process of "cooking" this seed?

~ If Qi is the "process" of awareness interfacing with physical being, what role does the breath have?

~ Last question first - excellent question - My answer may seem trite and overly simple but consider the source!

(me, Stig, not you)

Breath is life - it is the source of nutrients for our physical being and our awareness. Neither are possible without it. The healthier and clearer our awareness and physical being are, the closer in tune they become.

Furthermore, breath and breathing are a wonderful source of focus for awareness for multiple reasons. Given that breathing is equally volitional and subconscious, it is a great vehicle for developing insight into the differences (are there any?) between volitional and non-volitional behaviors. Also, focusing on the breath is the easiest and most basic process where that overlap between awareness and physical being occurs. Hence, most meditative practices beginning with the breath. These are just some rudimentary answers and I'm sure we could get much deeper into it with time. More evidence to support where my ideas have come from (please note that I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, just showing my line of thought). All of the practices that help us to 'cultivate Qi' are practices that help us to integrate, strenthen, and sensitize us to that overlap of awareness of physical being. So this is why the Taijiquan forms are mostly practiced very slowly and mindfully. Same with Qigong and same with Daoist neigong.

 

~ The other two questions are concerned with cooking and rice and so forth. I'm not sure how productive that inquiry will be.

Here is a critical point to consider. The character 氣 really refers more to the air we breath and less to the Qi it contains. If you look into the more esoteric Daoist writings and Daoist charms, you will find another character. It is archaic and difficult to find in modern use but the original character used by the Daoists for Qi (which is contained in 氣) can be found here.

http://www.chinalanguage.com/dictionaries/...amp;mode=pinyin

 

It may be interesting for you to look at that character etymologically, Stig. I can't find a version of it that I can easily cut and paste here.

Edited December 22, 2009 by steve f

[Iskote]

I think your description is closest to what I am looking for. I forgot to mention that the question what is Qi comes in pair with another question that I kept to myself only.

Maybe it's the right time to voice it out: what are the real characteristics that make Nei Qi and Wai Qi be different.

 

I'll try my luck with the last question that you put out, Stig.

If you look at the Hindu system, the overall energy is comprised of a number of energies: prana, apana, upana, etc. They sum up to the concept of overall energy. In this context, breath is only a part of Qi, more likely, a manifestation.

 

These questions, plus the initial one, are not to be treated too simplistic, imho. It's silly to practice and have no idea what you practice with...

 

I hope others can share their views:)

 

Qi takes many forms, just as with our concept of energy. The qi contained in our body, is further

divided into various types or forms as well such as yin qi, yang qi, protective qi, true qi, nourishing qi, etc.

Again, these are all just concepts to help us understand and communicate the various ways that qi

can behave, or forms that qi can take, in the body. Observing the different ways qi can behave, or

the different forms it can take, still does not tell us what qi is, just as in science we can classify the

different forms of energy and how it behaves, but it still doesn't really tell us ultimately what energy is.

 

Just as science has come to the conclusion that all matter is made up of energy and this energy

can take many forms, so it seems it is with qi. Qi can flow or be stored in the body in different forms,

but also, at a deeper level, everything is made up of qi as well. Maybe we can say, 'qi' is how 'tao'

expresses itself in all the myriad forms whether they be substantial or insubstantial. If you are

just limiting yourself to qi as it exists in various forms in the body, or in other things, then you are

limting yourself to only certain forms of qi. In the end, it still doesn't 'explain' what qi is, just as looking at

all the forms of energy in science still doesn't really tell us what energy is. That's apparently why the wise

ones tell us to meditate if we really want to understand. The mind is limited in what it can grasp through reasoning and observation.

 

Best wishes...

[Andrei]

 

http://www.sharinghealth.com/pdf/electrici...rhealth_pdf.pdf

 

Jing is chemical substances in the body

Qi is electricity

Shen is light photons

[soaring crane]

These questions, plus the initial one, are not to be treated too simplistic, imho. It's silly to practice and have no idea what you practice with..

I hope others can share their views:)

 

well, my view is that, this thread could go on for 10,000 more pages and nobody is going to have a definitive answer. This is why I stick my "ultrafine substance" definition. I feel it, I breath it, it flows, it speeds up, it slows down, it enters and leaves, it condenses and expands, I can taste it, smell it, literally feel it on my skin, I can't quite see it, but I don't really look for it either.

 

I accept it as it is and I don't feel silly practicing with it. Maybe, and I hope this doesn't come off wrong, but I wonder how many of us here actually work with Qi to begin with. When you practice, are you actively involved in allowing Qi to move, sending it through your limbs? Breathing it? I think, once a person starts to really experience Qi, the strict definitions spoil the art.

Edited December 22, 2009 by soaring crane

[fiveelementtao]

I can share from experience, that when it comes to "Qi", the more you try and grab on to it, the further you push it away. The more you think about it, the more mysterious it becomes. Children know what it is and don't need to understand it to enjoy it...

Edited December 22, 2009 by fiveelementtao

[soaring crane]

the more you try and grab on to it, the further you push it away.

 

this is absolutely true and I've experienced exactly this a number of times. I totally spoiled a wonderful Qi experience about five years ago by becoming obsessive about it and trying to force it to do things for me (my grey hairs were reverting back to brown but once I became aware of that, I started practicing with exactly THAT intention, all the time, and the effect wore off. And my grey hairs came back. I haven't really been able to get back to that state again but I feel a change in the wind somehow).

 

And that may be something that holds me back from looking too hard for the answer to the "what is it" question, now that I think about it.

 

At some point you have to just accept it and move on. Otherwise, when do you ever start?

 

Hmm, now that think about it, that must have been closer to eight years ago, geesh, time flies...

[Non]

I read somewhere that to 'cultivate chi' really means 'to cultivate mind/body union'. Or when will acts in harmony with the body.

[soaring crane]

 

Here is a critical point to consider. The character 氣 really refers more to the air we breath and less to the Qi it contains.

 

yessss... you know what I think is interesting, Air isn't one of the Wu Xing elements. A friend of my daughter's (10 years old) pointed that out to me a couple weeks ago, and I had never really thought about it as significant before. Where does air actually enter into all this?

[Stigweard]

~ What, in the human being, is the "rising steam"?

~ What is the process of "raising" this steam?

~ If Qi is this "rising steam" within physical being, what role does the breath have?

Notable questions.

In Latin the term for breath is "respirare" which literally means to "Re-Spirit". "Re-Spiration" is still the medical term for breath. In the hospital when someone dies, they "expire (Ex-Spirare)" which literally means "Exiting Spirit". So we still have this idea that Breath is Spirit or Life Force... This idea of breath and spirit as one and the same is not just in Chinese or Sanskrit. We in the west, used to believe in a "life Force" that was infused into the body with breath. Qi is just the Chinese word for the same thing all cultures originally knew to exist as "life Force, Breath, Spirit or energy.

I agree

Maybe it's the right time to voice it out: what are the real characteristics that make Nei Qi and Wai Qi be different.

Good question. Let's hear some views on this. ??

Breath is life - it is the source of nutrients for our physical being and our awareness. Neither are possible without it. The healthier and clearer our awareness and physical being are, the closer in tune they become.

Furthermore, breath and breathing are a wonderful source of focus for awareness for multiple reasons. Given that breathing is equally volitional and subconscious, it is a great vehicle for developing insight into the differences (are there any?) between volitional and non-volitional behaviors. Also, focusing on the breath is the easiest and most basic process where that overlap between awareness and physical being occurs. Hence, most meditative practices beginning with the breath. These are just some rudimentary answers and I'm sure we could get much deeper into it with time. More evidence to support where my ideas have come from (please note that I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, just showing my line of thought). All of the practices that help us to 'cultivate Qi' are practices that help us to integrate, strenthen, and sensitize us to that overlap of awareness of physical being. So this is why the Taijiquan forms are mostly practiced very slowly and mindfully. Same with Qigong and same with Daoist neigong.

Well said

I think, once a person starts to really experience Qi, the strict definitions spoil the art.

I can share from experience, that when it comes to "Qi", the more you try and grab on to it, the further you push it away. The more you think about it, the more mysterious it becomes. Children know what it is and don't need to understand it to enjoy it...

I agree with the above two comments. We must be balanced. Rational knowledge in this matter can only take us so far and then we must take the proverbial leap into the abyss of direct experience. This is, I believe, what Vaj was saying in his comment in another post about coming from the heart.

 

The Qi that can be described is not the universal Qi.

[soaring crane]

The Qi that can be described is not the universal Qi.

 

There ya go! I'm going to borrow that one once in a while if you don't mind

[Stigweard]

~ The other two questions are concerned with cooking and rice and so forth. I'm not sure how productive that inquiry will be.

Here is a critical point to consider. The character 氣 really refers more to the air we breath and less to the Qi it contains. If you look into the more esoteric Daoist writings and Daoist charms, you will find another character. It is archaic and difficult to find in modern use but the original character used by the Daoists for Qi (which is contained in 氣) can be found here.

http://www.chinalanguage.com/dictionaries/...amp;mode=pinyin

 

It may be interesting for you to look at that character etymologically, Stig. I can't find a version of it that I can easily cut and paste here.

Here are some Seal Characters of Qi 氣:

[Taomeow]

The traditional way to define qi is by showing what it is not.

 

It is not breath, because it is present in things that don't breathe -- e.g., books, paintings, or swords.

It is not life force, because it is present in corpses, stones, and ghosts.

It is not electricity, because it is present in the antistatic fluid.

It is not energy, because it can both create and undergo transformations without any energy involved. E.g., Monday becomes Tuesday without having spent any energy on accomplishing that. Everybody knows what a "Monday" is but the only thing that can cause it to exist is the qi of its meaning. Similarly, if your parents already have a son and you are then born to them, their firstborn undergoes a qi transformation that will affect him for the rest of his life -- to wit, one that has caused him to become someone's brother -- without having spent any energy on the transformation.

 

Qi is a rearrangement of the Pattern. Qi both causes and is caused by a rearrangement of the Pattern. Qi is Change Itself, Potential for Change, and the Outcome of Change all wrapped into one. "Change" is a far vaster concept than "life," "breath," or "energy," let alone "electricity" or some such. Change is an inherent property of tao-in-motion, a space-time phenomenon of the most fundamental order. However, qi is most useful to understand as "meaningful change," which is why the Book of Changes doesn't go beyond 64 transformations thereof, which cover the whole scope of meaningful situation of change possible in space-time; a greater number of subdivisions creates meaningless fragmentation, and that's the level where you lose qi and are stuck with "pure energy." Shudder.

 

When tackling qi, it is always useful to remember that it is always meaningful. Energy may or may not be meaningful -- break a cup and you will be hard pressed to figure out what the meaning is of every shard and every sliver, though energy is what caused each one of them to manifest. Break a cup by throwing it against the wall while arguing with your significant other, and the qi of the act means lots and lots of things besides and beyond its sheer energy. In fact, it can generate or destroy energy far surpassing that of the breaking point of the cup, It can break up a marriage, e.g., and eliminate a whole line of posterity for the next three billion years. Or it can generate it. Qi of the moment, i.e. potential for change inherent in it, is not inferrable from the amount of strong, weak, gravitational, or electromagnetic forces it contains. It is inherent in the nature, quality and timing of the pattern, in its meaning. It can be tremendous if the pattern places it in such a position -- or none at all beyond the sheer muscular energy you've spent on the act.

 

I said it before and I'll say it again. Qi is the medium and message of meaningful change.

Edited December 23, 2009 by Taomeow

[Harold]

[Andrei]

It is not electricity, because it is present in the antistatic fluid.

 

And what is antistatic fluid?

 

It is not energy, because it can both create and undergo transformations without any energy involved. E.g., Monday becomes Tuesday without having spent any energy on accomplishing that.

 

Monday is in your head, so when you think "Ah, today is Monday", you spend energy. And yes, the energy you spend is electrical energy.

 

Everybody knows what a "Monday" is but the only thing that can cause it to exist is the qi of its meaning.

 

Not everyone knew what a "Monday" was when the Sumerians invented Monday. They spread the word for everybody to know, and yes, for that they spent manpower and horsepower. And for every bit of information to carry from one point to another in the Universe the energy is "spent". And what is to "spend"? And what is "information"? I am sure Qi is NOT "information", neither "consciousness", neither "universal intelligence".

 

Qi is just a substance that carry the "information", "consciousness" and "universal intelligence". IMO of course

[Iskote]

 

http://www.sharinghealth.com/pdf/electrici...rhealth_pdf.pdf

 

Jing is chemical substances in the body

Qi is electricity

Shen is light photons

 

Although there may be corresponding chemical actions (for example actions in the endocrine systems)

in the body that relate to 'jing', I believe jing is something much more than that. There is a non

physical aspect to jing that can't be analyzed or measured with physical instruments.

 

[Note added later:] I think the physical aspect of jing that relates to the essential fluids in the body

like saliva, blood, hormones, sexual fluids, etc. is referred to as 'yin jing', and the non physical aspect

is the essential life force vitality within us that gives us life is referred to as 'yang jing'. However, as many

people have probably noticed, various texts and teachers seem to use these terms in different ways, so I

think that is why there is a fair bit of confusion about these concepts.

 

As for qi, although there is a close parallel to the concept of physical energy, such as electrical energy

for example, qi is certainly not at all physical like the physical forms of energy. Although qi is non physical,

that is not to say that a skilled qigong practitioner couldn't produce physical effects by manipulating qi

such as producing measurable heat changes in a physical object, or lighting a light emitting diode as John

Chang demonstrated in the video made of him. If qi was electricity (or electromagnetic energy as some

people describe it) then it should be measurable with the appropriate measuring equipment. Any electrical

or electromagnetic effects that have been measured seem to be related to effects of qi, rather than a

measurement of qi itself.

 

Likewise, shen is not light photons, since it does not seem to give off a physical light except

maybe as described above in cases where it is more a side effect or artifact, rather than

shen itself.

 

It is natural for the rational mind to want to put everything in neat little boxes that are easier to deal with,

but sometimes doing that takes us further away from what we are trying to understand rather than

bringing us closer to true understanding. The rational mind is designed for dealing with and making sense

of the physical world so that we can function in it in a productive way. If we try to use the rational mind to

analyze that which is outside of time and space then we will likely only lead ourselves astray.

Beyond the realms of time and space a whole other type of cognition must be developed, or so

various respected masters through the ages have indicated. Concepts of jing, qi, and shen help us

to get at least some sort of grasp of certain concepts, but if we try to take these concepts and analysis too

far I think that is where we will most likely start to go astray. I think the notion that the rational mind cannot

ever grasp what is outside of time and space is what was being hinted at in the Tao Te Ching, but that's

just my take on it, of course...

 

Best wishes...

Edited December 23, 2009 by Iskote

[Taomeow]

And what is antistatic fluid?

 

I don't know. Mostly a joke. They sell it in spray cans. You spray it on your clothes (supposed you own any synthetics -- I don't) to rid them of static electricity.

 

Monday is in your head, so when you think "Ah, today is Monday", you spend energy. And yes, the energy you spend is electrical energy.

 

If you demo an electric zap that my mind translates into "Ah, today is Monday," I will ask you what or who the translator was. I submit it was qi in its shen manifestation. I submit without it you could zap me, yourself, or the neighbor's dog ad infinitum and exhaust the capabilities of all local power plants and cause a statewide blackout and still the electricity you used up wouldn't generate a Monday in anyone's head.

 

Not everyone knew what a "Monday" was when the Sumerians invented Monday. They spread the word for everybody to know, and yes, for that they spent manpower and horsepower. And for every bit of information to carry from one point to another in the Universe the energy is "spent". And what is to "spend"? And what is "information"? I am sure Qi is NOT "information", neither "consciousness", neither "universal intelligence".

 

No, of course it is not. I never said it was information, consciousness, or universal intelligence, neither do any of the taoist classics whose qi has shaped my understanding. I said it was Pattern Change. I added it was meaningful. Meaningful does not equal intelligent, informative, conscious, etc.. Meaningful is far greater than any of these. A drop of rain and a ray of sun are meaningful to a seed in the ground -- they mean "wake up and grow." A drop of cyanide is meaningful to the human body -- it means "die." It's always more than a thought -- it's a Change. Change is bigger than electricity, nor is predicated on electricity for to happen. Oh, and energy is predicated on change, not vice versa. Every equation of modern physics shows an intimate connection between energy and time. Time is the medium of change, qi is the messenger and the message, energy is the side effect.

 

Qi is just a substance that carry the "information", "consciousness" and "universal intelligence". IMO of course

 

Qi is not a substance. It does carry stuff, but not the way a river carries a boat. It is simultaneously the river and the boat and the destination. And yet it is never reducible to the river, the boat, or the destination. And it is not "all there is." It is "all that changes, and change itself, and what it changes into."

 

If you want to apply western sciences to taoist concepts, I humbly suggest fractals, chaos, and power laws, not electricity and magnetism and the rest of Maxwellian goodies of the heyday of reductionist fundamentalism.

[soaring crane]

Qi is not a substance. It does carry stuff, but not the way a river carries a boat. It is simultaneously the river and the boat and the destination. And yet it is never reducible to the river, the boat, or the destination. And it is not "all there is." It is "all that changes, and change itself, and what it changes into."

 

This sounds more like Dao, meow.

 

Explain to me please how the Qi of your descriptions, as thorough and elegant as they are, can be gathered up and projected, into a diode for example. Qi behaves exactly like water, on an infinitismally finer and vastly larger, universal scale.

 

There's a German term - Feinstofflich - that answers it, but I don't know how to put it into English.

[Riyue]

[宁]

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

I still feel we're missing something

That would be 'Clarity'.. in the quest to define, we confine.. as i said earlier, my 'Ah ha' moment was my mentor's example of the two birds, one alive, one deceased.. the answer was clear and wordless, it was obvious which had Qi, and it requred no 'definition' to understand.. Scholarly disertations about Qi, are a waste of good Qi..

 

Be well...

[Marblehead]

 

Btw, the first verse of the Dao de jing has been translated as:

1 - Dao can be spoken

2 - Dao is not eternal

So it must be the same with Qi

 

I still feel we're missing something

 

I have no problem with that translation. "Dao" is the word, not that which is spoken of. Before the word existed that which is spoken to existed; there was no beginning and there is no end - "it" is eternal. The word "Dao" is not eternal.

 

And I agree, the word "Chi" (Qi) is not eternal. However, that which is being spoken to is eternal.

 

But because both are in constant change any defination will be lacking of the eternality, and constant changing, of both.

 

Peace & Love!

[Riyue]

[Iskote]

...

Edited December 23, 2009 by Iskote

[Iskote]

...

Btw, the first verse of the Dao de jing has been translated as:

1 - Dao can be spoken

2 - Dao is not eternal

So it must be the same with Qi

 

Yes, I imagine if a person were quite drunk they might end up translating it that way...

 

I still feel we're missing something

 

Perhaps openness to that which is beyond our preconceptions is what you are looking for?

By loosening our tight grip on our preconceptions we can open ourselves up to new possibilities for understanding.

 

Best wishes...