The Tao Of Nietzsche

[d'avid]

Some interesting quote from Nietzsche's Ecce Homo (another mention of "Sitzfleisch" occurs in his book "Götzendämmerung"), I quote in German:

 

"So wenig als möglich sitzen; keinem Gedanken Glauben schenken, der nicht im Freien geboren ist und bei freier Bewegung, — in dem nicht auch die Muskeln ein Fest feiern. Alle Vorurtheile kommen aus den Eingeweiden. — Das Sitzfleisch — ich sagte es schon einmal — ist die eigentliche Sünde wider den heiligen Geist."

 

It means (my unpolished quick translation):

 

To sit as little as possible; to believe in no thought that was not born under open sky (outdoors) and while moving freely - in which the muscles don't have a feast on their own. All prejudices stem from the entrails. Das sitzfleisch (not what it means in English, just meat that sits too much) - I already said that once - is the actual sin against the holy spirit.

 

Whole text:

http://www.magister....tz/nietz01g.htm

 

Have a good start in a fruiful new cycle!

 

D'avid

 

Edit 10.01.2013: I corrected an error.

Edited January 10, 2013 by d'avid

[GrandmasterP]

Sitzfleisch = Tenacity... 'Sticking to one's guns'.

[Marblehead]

Have a good start in a fruiful new cycle!

 

D'avid

Hey! That's cheating. You get to walk the same paths he walked. (Noticed you are in Basel.)

[Stosh]

The superman is a different concept. An anarchist to be sure. He would also be a leader of people, not because he wanted followers but rather because people wanted to follow him willingly.

 

I doubt that he could be reigned in by defeat. I think he would be beyond that - winning and losing.

 

Ok that tides me over for a bit , you say he isnt expecting this to 'common practice' that only a few would get close?

Hmmm

Still seems like Captain Bligh to me , and not one I would want to follow ,

there is just so much in the text here that can be taken in some real ugly light.

like

On the contrary, to submit even to the Evil One—to love him....

 

but Ill wait and see what ameliorating factors come up.

[Stosh]

Oh , and merry christmas to all and have a good night!

[Marblehead]

there is just so much in the text here that can be taken in some real ugly light.

Please understand that I am not going to suggest that I agree with everything he wrote.

 

The quotes from him I will post will be those I feel are from his better side.

[Marblehead]

Oh , and merry christmas to all and have a good night!

Yeah. Happy Holidays! Ho, Ho, Ho.

[Vmarco]

Yes, this is an important statement but we must be careful to not misunderstand it. And remember that Fred was living in a place and a time where life was so very hypocritical. And the people used Christianity to justify their hypocracy.

 

People are still hyrocritical,...but now use their personal theism, and other beliefs, to justify their hypocracy.

 

To realize the Tao, all belief must be dissolved,...when all beliefs are dissolved, the Tao is realized.

[GrandmasterP]

This you know for a fact experientially, or did you just read it?

[Bubbles]

Many years ago I submitted a paper suggesting that Nietzsche considered Jesus to have been one who was just about to become a superman but failed in the end when, on the cross (pole) he asked, "God, why have you forsaken me?"

 

That's interesting, Marblehead, I would be happy to read it. Would you mind posting it here or in your Personal Practice Journal if you have one?

Thanks

Edited December 22, 2012 by bubbles

[Bubbles]

^{Im thinking Fred looked down on the idea of herd mentality , but have heard that he lived a conventional life .}

^{Does anyone think people should act like a pack of wolves?}

^{Is not a placid herd a reasonable paradigm for a society?}

^{Why should sheeple be derogatory from a Taoist perspective ?}

^{Or is it the ideal that everyone runs around in some chaotic scrum}

^{ignoring the collective migration beneficial to the group and the individuals which participate in it?}

 

^{Moreover about the Neitzche chapters above , I dont see how it makes sense to villify the collective opions of the church and then suggest that there is a one true reading on the meanings of the gospels and outlining the single psychological effect it would have. It reminds me of Vmarco , he suggests that no belief system is valid and yet continues on with perfect view that should be had by all.}

^{What am I missing that corrects the apparent contradictions of either?}

 

 

 

The question about psychology

 

Actually it pertains to Nietzsche’s method to read the psychology as the symptom of a specific relation life has with itself. This relation is a value. What makes the value of a value can only be understood when referred to life and specifically the way life asserts itself ( that is called _will to power_). To Nietzsche, there is nothing real outside life feeling itself. No external truth, no objective items, ideas etc.. To Nietzsche it all boils down to life and values. So to analyse values, Nietzsche says one should track them down to their real origins: life and its specific instinctual and physiological organization. This act of tracking is to Nietzsche what psychology as an area of study is. Psychology is an easy way to read and interpret how life manifests itself through values. In the case of Christianity, Nietzsche looks at it not seeking to what extent Christianity is true or false in a traditional sense but seeking what kind of relation of life with itself it expresses and promotes. That’s the reason why he draws a line between the way the Church interprets the Gospels and the other. The first one, because it projects onto an exteriority (I mean outwardly, in an ideology) the existence of a God we should be submitted ourselves to, of moral laws etc, just promotes a negation of life by itself, and express morbidity in both body and psychology.. The second way manifests the healthy relation of life with itself, which is a praxis (not an ideology) by which one is able to support the will to power.

 

The question about the herd

 

Because there is nothing outside life and the ways life seeks asserting itself (morbidly or healthily), there is no way the herd can be saved. Because what makes an herd an herd is that individuals negate their individuality, their individual life, by submitting themselves to external ideology, which is always a way life represses itself. This ideology promotes for eg, equality of rights (democracy), when life is inherently unequal, material comfort that dazes, stupefy and weakens life when life should be instead seeking intensity in suffering and joy etc.. This is to Nietzsche a sign of nihilism i-e life self-negation and nihilism permeates our entire civilization.

Nietzsche thinks there is no easy solution to that. When the ultimate stage of nihilism will be crossed, right conditions will be set to see the emergence of superman. This superman is the model of what could save humanity/life from its erring way. Supermen are type of men in which life endures itself to the highest intensity and can therefore go through intense suffering and joy without trying to escape from it ( could we endure and bear the eternal recurrence of universe and events without trying to escape? ) and is capable of great achievements artistically etc.. but first and foremost by resetting life values from nihilistic to affirmative . Being a superman requires specific education. If supermen are enough in number they can influence the herd at distance (at distance from political power) through the resetting of values (that will permeate the culture and transform it) but always in ways the herd can’t identify –otherwise they will resist. This is what Jesus did but his resetting of values has been corrupted by the priests who dominated and created the Church. That’s why there is no real contradiction between putting oneself at distance from the herd and at the same time living in the middle of them (what you called an apparent conventional life). All this involves a political project that Nietzsche only sketched. What is sure is that being a superman has nothing to do with Darwinian sociology (survival of the fittest etc) nor political domination. Nietzsche posits clearly that the higher type a man, the less he is likely to succeed in a herd society.

 

BTW Nietzsche saw in the development of Buddhism in the West as a symptom of nihilism because of the anti-suffering ideology it is based on ( see beyond good and evil §202)

Edited December 22, 2012 by bubbles

[d'avid]

@GrandmasterP:

Sitzfleisch = Tenacity... 'Sticking to one's guns'.

yes, that's right, that's the meaning in the English us of this originally German (Chair-Man:-) word.

But int German it's a very rarely heard word which then isn't connotated with that meaning. So also concluding from the context, Nietzsche just meant human meat that doesn't move (not relating to being "determined").

 

@Marblehead

Hey! That's cheating. You get to walk the same paths he walked. (Noticed you are in Basel.)

Yes, I live close to Basel where Nietzsche spent some time and I also lived in the Engadin (somewhere high up in the southeastern Swiss alps) where Nietzsche met Zarathustra walking through the forests:-). With no intent of following / copying. To go the same way like Nietzsche might mean to just go one's very own. And of course not trusting his foughts. I don't mind weather he was right or wrong (if it is at all possible to be so), he (being born with a libra son:-) was in service of balance anyway with the impulses he brought to the human mind.

 

@bubble:

Nietzsche saw in the development of Buddhism in the West as a symptom of nihilism because of the anti-suffering ideology it is based on ( see beyond good and evil §202)

 

Interesting note that makes sense to me.

 

Buddhism today seems to me - as is Christianity - a distortion of the original impulse brought by the "supermen" that laid its foundations, but still hold valuable keys if one drills through to the pure intent at their beginnings.

 

Nice to see that the taoist quality of Nietzsches mind was recognized and an Interesting thread, just started to read more of it.

Edited December 22, 2012 by d'avid

[Marblehead]

People are still hyrocritical,...but now use their personal theism, and other beliefs, to justify their hypocracy.

 

To realize the Tao, all belief must be dissolved,...when all beliefs are dissolved, the Tao is realized.

Seems like human nature doesn't change much over time, what?

 

Yes, I still have some attachments. And so do you. Hehehe.

 

I do try very hard to not be a hypocrite though. IMO hypocracy is unjustifiable. Even white lies are lies.

[Marblehead]

This you know for a fact experientially, or did you just read it?

I know nothing but I sure do have lots of opinions. Hehehe.

[Marblehead]

The question about psychology

 

The question about the herd

Excellent responses to both Bubbles! Thanks for sharing.

 

And this especially: but first and foremost by resetting life values from nihilistic to affirmative .

[三江源]

'God have you forsaken me?'

 

is an essential part of the alchemy.

 

 

The rhetoric of it employed at that moment is to illustrate the darkest point before the dawn.

 

imu.

[Bubbles]

.

Edited December 22, 2012 by bubbles

[GrandmasterP]

Some say Mr Jesus was calling upon Elijah with that

"Eloi Eloi lamasabecthani".

Take your point about the abyss though Cat.

Dreadful place but unless and until it is faced and traversed............

[Stosh]

The question about psychology

 

Actually it pertains to Nietzsche’s method to read the psychology as the symptom of a specific relation life has with itself. This relation is a value. What makes the value of a value can only be understood when referred to life and specifically the way life asserts itself ( that is called _will to power_). To Nietzsche, there is nothing real outside life feeling itself. No external truth, no objective items, ideas etc.. To Nietzsche it all boils down to life and values. So to analyse values, Nietzsche says one should track them down to their real origins: life and its specific instinctual and physiological organization. This act of tracking is to Nietzsche what psychology as an area of study is. Psychology is an easy way to read and interpret how life manifests itself through values. In the case of Christianity, Nietzsche looks at it not seeking to what extent Christianity is true or false in a traditional sense but seeking what kind of relation of life with itself it expresses and promotes. That’s the reason why he draws a line between the way the Church interprets the Gospels and the other. The first one, because it projects onto an exteriority (I mean outwardly, in an ideology) the existence of a God we should be submitted ourselves to, of moral laws etc, just promotes a negation of life by itself, and express morbidity in both body and psychology.. The second way manifests the healthy relation of life with itself, which is a praxis (not an ideology) by which one is able to support the will to power.

 

The question about the herd

 

Because there is nothing outside life and the ways life seeks asserting itself (morbidly or healthily), there is no way the herd can be saved. Because what makes an herd an herd is that individuals negate their individuality, their individual life, by submitting themselves to external ideology, which is always a way life represses itself. This ideology promotes for eg, equality of rights (democracy), when life is inherently unequal, material comfort that dazes, stupefy and weakens life when life should be instead seeking intensity in suffering and joy etc.. This is to Nietzsche a sign of nihilism i-e life self-negation and nihilism permeates our entire civilization.

Nietzsche thinks there is no easy solution to that. When the ultimate stage of nihilism will be crossed, right conditions will be set to see the emergence of superman. This superman is the model of what could save humanity/life from its erring way. Supermen are type of men in which life endures itself to the highest intensity and can therefore go through intense suffering and joy without trying to escape from it ( could we endure and bear the eternal recurrence of universe and events without trying to escape? ) and is capable of great achievements artistically etc.. but first and foremost by resetting life values from nihilistic to affirmative . Being a superman requires specific education. If supermen are enough in number they can influence the herd at distance (at distance from political power) through the resetting of values (that will permeate the culture and transform it) but always in ways the herd can’t identify –otherwise they will resist. This is what Jesus did but his resetting of values has been corrupted by the priests who dominated and created the Church. That’s why there is no real contradiction between putting oneself at distance from the herd and at the same time living in the middle of them (what you called an apparent conventional life). All this involves a political project that Nietzsche only sketched. What is sure is that being a superman has nothing to do with Darwinian sociology (survival of the fittest etc) nor political domination. Nietzsche posits clearly that the higher type a man, the less he is likely to succeed in a herd society.

 

BTW Nietzsche saw in the development of Buddhism in the West as a symptom of nihilism because of the anti-suffering ideology it is based on ( see beyond good and evil §202)

 

Interesting , Ill need to read it again and consider it thoroughly , but Im not sure about your own stance here

 

Are you in agreement with Fred on these views or are you speaking impartially?

[GrandmasterP]

Be careful not to reverse engineer current understandings or definitions of psychology back into Fred's day. He could not discuss ideas that were not yet extant.

'Clinical' Psychology, all of it; is mediated by language because the clinical psychologist can never truly know whether or not the service user is telling her/him what it is the service user thinks that the clinical psychologist wants to hear.

Retail psychology on the other hand is an empirical science based on hard and expensively well-researched data capture and analysis.

Hence advertising is usually effective ( that's why they do it) and we find sweeties (candy) on prominent display at or very near to supermarket checkouts.

Edited December 26, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[Bubbles]

Be careful not to reverse engineer current understandings or definitions of psychology back into Fred's day. He could not discuss ideas that were not yet extant.

 

Nietzsche took the word 'psychology' as the mental characteristic of a person or a group as being subordinated to the way Life deals with itself.

[Marblehead]

Nietzsche took the word 'psychology' as the mental characteristic of a person or a group as being subordinated to the way Life deals with itself.

Concept well stated!

[Bubbles]

Are you in agreement with Fred on these views or are you speaking impartially?

 

I am speaking impartially.

IMO Nietzsche made very discerning, relevant and cogent analysis, but I find very discerning, relevant and cogent analysis in a lot of philosophers whose presuppositions are quite different from Nietzsche's.

[GrandmasterP]

"The problem with the other origin of the “good,” of the good man, as the person of ressentiment has thought it out for himself, demands some conclusion. It is not surprising that the lambs should bear a grudge against the great birds of prey, but that is no reason for blaming the great birds of prey for taking the little lambs. And when the lambs say among themselves, "These birds of prey are evil, and he who least resembles a bird of prey, who is rather its opposite, a lamb,—should he not be good?" then there is nothing to carp with in this ideal's establishment, though the birds of prey may regard it a little mockingly, and maybe say to themselves, "We bear no grudge against them, these good lambs, we even love them: nothing is tastier than a tender lamb."

(Fred in On the Genealogy of Morality).

 

That 'person of ressentiment'' is a key concept there.

[GrandmasterP]

 

Concept well stated!

.....

 

Edited December 26, 2012 by GrandmasterP