The Tao Of Nietzsche

[Marblehead]

Hi All,

 

Considering the amount of attention my mention of Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche brought to the forum I thought I would post some Nietzsche quotes and see if they, in any way, relate to Taoist philosophy and if they do, in what way.

 

And so, without further ado, the first quote:

 

"Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule."

 

Happy Trails!

Edited April 25, 2010 by Marblehead

[Sunya]

ooo intersting.. keep it up keep it up. I'm taking a Nietzsche course so I have a bunch of his books Will to power, Human All too human, the gay science, Beyond good and evil.. so when I spot some good quotes I'll come and share here

[Marblehead]

ooo intersting.. keep it up keep it up. I'm taking a Nietzsche course so I have a bunch of his books Will to power, Human All too human, the gay science, Beyond good and evil.. so when I spot some good quotes I'll come and share here

 

That would be great! The collection I have is rather limited.

 

Happy Trails!

[hagar]

...

 

h

Edited October 4, 2009 by hagar

[Marblehead]

Hi Hagar,

 

Of course, I had to read the link as my memory of the book is very stale.

 

I would suggest that parallels between that and Chuang Tzu could easily be found. Even within Lao Tzu there are parallels.

 

One thing that came to my mind while reading it was Chuang Tzu's story about when he was fishing and messangers came to him to offer a position at court but he said that he preferreed to be like the turtle and drag his tail in the mud.

 

Yes, most people fear those who appear imminent and will refuse to listen for fear that their delusion will be busted.

 

Happy Trails!

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Good topic, Marble, thanks for puttin' it up.

 

Looking forward to the discush.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ this post conveyed via my iPhone from Everest Base Camp]

Edited September 8, 2009 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Marblehead]

Good topic, Marble, thanks for puttin' it up.

 

Looking forward to the discush.

 

Thanks. I will do my best to make it something of value.

 

Happy Trails!

[Marblehead]

[DalTheJigsaw123]

This is an awesome thread! Please, continue sharing some beautiful thoughts!

[contrivedname!]

nice, i actually told an friend of mine i was corresponding with in china (a native) that i found nietzche and chuang tzu to be similar. one obvious way is the way zhuangzi uses confucius and nietzche uses zarathustra. and to be quite honest, i have felt like some of nietzche's philosophy is somewhat similar to some buddhist philosophy as well.

 

some good nietzche quotes:

 

"The vanity of others offends our taste only when it offends our vanity"

 

"Once the mind has been made up close your ear even to the strongest counterargument. Sign of a strong character, and thus an occasional will to stupidity"

 

and one i definately think is similar to zhuangzi:

"Moral judgements and condemnations constitute the favorite revenge of the spiritually limited against those less limited. Also a sort of compensation for having been ill favored by nature, finally an opportunity for acquiring spirit and becoming refined, malice spiritualized..." cant remember the rest

[Marblehead]

Hi Contrivedname!,

 

Okay. How about you select one of those three quotes you just posted for our next qoute for consideration?

 

Happy Trails!

[Eviander]

Yes, I am reading the portable Nietzsche right now at my own possible pace. I know he has been demonized but he was indeed a brilliant philosopher and psychologist by edging in his unique view of life and the necessity to realize perspectivism and create your own meaning in life (he was the father of existentialism).

 

Though we must remember he had paresis (syphilis) and was quite unhealthy and mad. He denied anything but that which was of the earth..and of course..in his time such thought was very hard to be open with. He is definitely great for stimulating the three lower chakras in my opinion (maybe even the fourth). But he did not have any experience in meditation, lucid dreaming, or out of body experiences..and as I am aware, very little knowledge thereof. He was intellectually brilliant non the less..and is probably a necessary read for any intellectual, mystic, Taoist, or whatever (though he was contemptuous against mystics..but again..he himself seemingly did not know how to live considering his health).

 

A quote from the Gay Science.

 

"Will and wave. How greedily this wave approaches, as if there were some objective to be reached! How, with awe-inspiring haste, it crawls into the inmost nooks of the rocky cliff! It seems that it wants to anticipate somebody; it seems that something is hidden there, something of value, high value.

And now it comes back, a little more slowly, still quite white with excitement--is it disappointed? But already another wave is approaching, still greedier and wilder than the first, and its soul too seems to be full of secrets and the lust to dig up treasures. Thus live the waves--thus live we who will--more I shall not say.

So? You mistrust me? You are angry with me, you beautiful monsters? Are you afraid that I might betray your secret entirely? Well, then be angry with me! Raise your dangerous green bodies as high as you can! Make a wall between me and the sun--as you do now! Verily, even now nothing is left of the world but green dusk and green lighting flashes. Carry on as you please, you pranksters; roar with delight and malice--or dive again, pouring your emeralds into the deepest depths, and cast your endless white manes of foam and spray over them--everything suits me, for everything suits you so well, and I am so well disposed toward you for everything: how could I think of betraying you! For--heed it well!--I know you and your secret, I know your kind! You and I--are we not of one kind? You and I--do we not have one secret?"

Edited September 9, 2009 by Eviander

[Eviander]

Another great paragraph of Nietzsche from his book The Dawn:

 

"Are you co-conspirators in the current folly of nations, who want above all to produce as much possible and to be as rich as possible? It would be your affair to preset them with the counter-calculation: what vast sums of inner worth are thrown away for such an external goal. But where is your inner worth when you no longer know what it means to breathe freely? When you no longer have the slightest control over yourselves? When you all to frequently become sick of yourselves, as of stale drink? When you listen to the newspaper and leer at your rich neighbor, made lustful by the rapid rise and fall of power, money, and opinions? When you no longer have any faith in philosophy, which wears rags, and in the candor of those who have no wants? When the voluntary idyllic life of poverty, without occupation or marriage, which might well suit the more spiritual among you, has become a laughingstock to you? Do your ears ring from the pipes of socialistic pied pipers, who want to make you wanton with mad hopes? Who bid you be prepared and nothing else, prepared from today to tomorrow so that you wait and wait for something from the outside, and live in every other respect as you have lived before--until this waiting turns into hunger and thirst and fever and madness, and finally the day of the bestia triumphans (rise of the beast or triumphant of the beast) rises in all its glory?"

Edited September 9, 2009 by Eviander

[Marblehead]

Hi Eviander,

 

I absolutely love that passage from "The Dawn"!

 

I don't have a copy of that and it has been over 25 years since I read it. Thanks for sharing!

 

Happy Trails!

[hagar]

.,.

Edited October 4, 2009 by hagar

[findley]

Yes, I spent last semester pursuing private study into Nietzsche. Of course, I was interested in in any correlations between Nietzschean and Taoist thought.

 

First, if you are learning Nietzsche by means of quotes, you are wrong. If you are expressing Nietzsche by means of quotations, you are still wrong. Aphorisms are fine, if you want to 'jump from mountain-top to mountian-top', but if you are trying to summarize his philosophical points with quotations... guess what... you are wrong.

 

The strongest correlation between Nietzschean and Taoist thought... drum-roll... get ready for it.......... anti-dogmatism. Both philosophies are anti-dogmatic. (simple eh? did you miss it? )

 

hmm, I could make another strong point but my arms ache from working out, and I am sitting at a meal.

 

Why dont you ...uhm... read his books. in their entirety. and well; word-for-word, sentence-by-sentence? if you dont understand his points, read again. I read geneology of morals a few times. If you want to having a working knowledge of Nietzsche's work, you should too.

 

lazy ass.

[Marblehead]

Posts noted by Hagar and Findley.

 

Hagar, thanks for the links.

 

Findley, very good post except for the last two words. They really weren't necessary.

 

So I think we will continue this thread as long as there is an interest in the concept.

 

I will wait a little longer for someone to present a quote for discussion.

 

Happy Trails!

[contrivedname!]

 

Nietszche himself said that the worst thing you could do with his thoughts was to quote them, as they per definition are dependent on their context. My basic grasp of his work is that it is not to be read without having his irony, and his rhetorical vision (which is fused with his overall project, if one could say that he has one).

 

 

fuck nietzche, i will quote him if i want, who is he to set up dogmatic rules

 

though in actuality that is a good pointe, i believe that he said to a friend (possibly wagner) that one thing he feared was that his name or work would ever be considered 'holy'. his work is very obviously ironic, an example would be the quote i listed above "the vanity of others offends our taste on when it offends our vanity". or the latter quote on condemnations, etc. which is itself condemning the "spiritually limited".

[Encephalon]

"The desire for a strong faith is not the proof of a strong faith, rather the opposit. If one has it one may permit oneself the beautiful luxury of scepticism: one is secure enough, firm enough, fixed enough for it.

 

Twilight of the Idols 1888.

[Marblehead]

fuck nietzche, i will quote him if i want, who is he to set up dogmatic rules

 

Yeah. He was always telling us to not be one of the herd animals and to do our own thing. And he of all people was one of the most un-dogmatic people I have ever read.

 

Happy Trails!

 

 

 

"The desire for a strong faith is not the proof of a strong faith, rather the opposit. If one has it one may permit oneself the beautiful luxury of scepticism: one is secure enough, firm enough, fixed enough for it.

 

Twilight of the Idols 1888.

 

I think that this one is good for comparing with Taoist thoughts.

 

Anyone want to give it a shot with something from Lao Tzu or Chuang Tzu?

 

Happy Trails!

[Encephalon]

Posts noted by Hagar and Findley.

 

Findley, very good post except for the last two words. They really weren't necessary.

 

"Mistrust those in whom the impulse to punish is strong."

[Marblehead]

[Marblehead]

Okay. Another quote from above:

 

"Once the mind has been made up close your ear even to the strongest counterargument. Sign of a strong character, and thus an occasional will to stupidity"

 

Well, I think that this is one where we do not have a consensus between Nietzsche and Taoism. While it is good, I think, to be strong-willed, I also think it is important to remain open-minded and flexible in the event change in plans must be made.

 

Happy Trails!

[Marblehead]

[Marblehead]

Okay. Here's the closest I could get to the above Nietzsche quote from Chuang Tzu (translator unknown):

 

How can thought be so obscure that there should be a distinction of true and false? How can speech be so obscure that there should be moral judgements and mental distinctions of "right" and "wrong", "true" and "false", "is" and "is not", "affirmative" and "negative", to "justify" and "condemn", to "affirm" and "deny"? Where can you go and find Tao not to exist? Where can you go and find that words cannot be proved? Tao is obscured by our inadequate understanding, and words are obscured by flowery expressions. Hence the affirmations and denials of the various religions, each denying what the other affirms and affirming what the other denies. Each denying what the other affirms and affirming what the other denies brings us only confusion.

 

Happy Trails!