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The dzogchen path that I follow is one that is guilty of using such terminology. Dzogchen literally means great (chen) perfection (dzog). As Keith suggests, to the Western ear a more palatable and equally valid translation would be great completion. In this context, perfect or complete does not imply a value judgement from the human perspective. It is more a recognition of the spontaneous presence of all enlightened qualities in our natural mind, always present and awaiting discovery. It suggests that we don't need to add or subtract anything or change anything to have access to unlimited potential for enlightened activity. We simply need to be open and unimpeded by our tendency to "collapse the wave function" (to borrow some quantum mechanics language); by our tendency to over-identify with a limited sense of "me" that excludes so many possibilities. For me this has strong parallels in Daoism, a few examples being concepts like ziran and wuwei, as well as the idea that Heaven, Earth, and the sage not being humane/benevolent but regarding people as straw dogs. In attending many dzogchen retreats over the past decade or so, this is one of the areas that causes the most consternation and frustration among developing practitioners. Of course there are many terrible things in the world, people suffer greatly and this is absolutely acknowledged in dzogchen and serves as the very basis and purpose for engaging in practice - namely, to liberate one's own being in order to benefit others. From the perspective of the samsaric being, the world can be a very tough, unforgiving, and dangerous place. From the absolute perspective, everything that arises is simply a function of the workings of karma and dependent origination. There is a sense of perfection or completeness in terms of the fact that if anything is changed, everything else changes. Nothing can be added or taken away or things would not be as they are. In this sense the whole is perfect and complete. I wonder if there is a parallel in Hindu systems relative to the inherent perfection/completeness of Brahman relative to the incompleteness and imperfection of maya... or something like that?

Someone who says things like "all is perfect" but doesn't have that as their lived experience is actually creating MORE suffering for themselves and deserves compassion. In reality the "transcendent" doesn't exist. There is nothing to transcend. What one might think of the transcendent is always RIGHT HERE. When someone with this understanding says that things are "perfect", they don't mean "ideal" they mean that they can't be any other way in this moment. The causes and conditions of this moment have come together to create things as they are right now. This isn't ever a denial of suffering, it is a statement of how things are. The only reason for a person to continue speaking teachings is to benefit others, and compassion for the suffering of others is generally what drives that. Parroting teachings even by someone who doesn't have the realization to go with it can be beneficial, but denying the reality of someone's experience of suffering isn't kind, it's true. Someone with "attainment" would want to be of benefit to those who are suffering.

Ah well, the thread has been contributed to. My work here is finished.

In my experience this is 100% the case. I have had a number of nights where I watched myself sleep and dream as a "witness" rather than a participant. It is absolutely possible to take the bare awareness of a practice like shikantaza or dzogchen and have that be present when asleep. We are ALWAYS just awareness. This is obviously the premise of Tibetan dream yogas, which I have researched. My success with inducing this is non-existent, but when it has occurred it has (2 out of 4 times) been after being on retreat. Gerard, I don't think you read the text properly, we aren't talking about the conventional way of thinking about "astral travel". This isn't a siddhi. In fact, Patanjali would absolutely agree that it is possible to see that reality is dream-like (or "a dream") in both waking and sleeping. Siddhi's are only distracting for those that would use them to gratify attachment or aversion, as you suggest. They will also occur naturally of their own accord, without being sought, as the belief in the solidity of "reality" is eroded.

Here is ho Mingyur Rinpoche puts it: What is perfect is the essence of every sentient being. The jiva is the relative deluded individual. The summation is usually "Brahma satyam, jagan mithya, jivo brahmaiva naparah." Brahman is real, the world is illusory, the essence of the jiva is the essence of Brahman. A more radical Vedantin along the lines of Gaudapada might say there is no issue because suffering is illusory, like a dream. The true self is safe and sound as always, so the solution is not to improve the dream, but to wake up the dreamer.

Cherry picking teaching words will lead to misunderstandings like this. The context of that type of talk is that before identification with a "self" there is no good or bad, right or wrong, etc. That is the basic teaching of shunyata. If someone has digested that teaching, then "everything is perfect". Actually, there is another saying that says "each thing is complete", which I think works a little better. As Stirling said, this is an experiential view, not a philosophical one. It takes a degree of openness, and also a willingness to put down our cherished beliefs, ideas, and opinions, to digest this. Fixed attitudes just solidify the "I, me, mine" viewpoint, and dukkha (suffering) rolls on both for ourselves and those we come in contact with. No one in their right mind would say the world is perfect from a mundane point of view. In fact, in terms of human behavior, it's the exact opposite. That's samsara. Now we find ourselves back in "two truths" territory, as we discussed in a different thread. With the wisdom of waking up to our true self, we can help ourselves and others. Interestingly, there is a Christian parallel to this in the story of Adam and Eve. They fall from heaven after eating an apple from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Maybe someone more versed in biblical Christianity can correct me on that, or provide some context. I just found it interesting that the fall from heaven was caused by a tree named after dualistic thinking. I am sure it wouldn't be too hard to pull out a few quotes from the DDJ to point in the direction what "everything is perfect" is talking about, as well. Of course, without having the context of the words, "everything is perfect" can be a form of spiritual bypassing. Sort of like "God has a plan". That's my two cents, anyway.

I practiced multiple systems for a number of years, i dont recommend it not for energetic reasons but because system hopping makes you miss the point Once you get some experience you'll realize how silly it is to collect rigid intellectual structures to realize the formless

SifuGPT

An interesting discussion of the movie "A Dark Song" and its working of the Abramelin ritual, a book on the Abramelin ritual and the movie itself, and a number of well-known (in the magick world) people who have attempted or completed the ritual. https://www.guruviking.com/podcast/ep336-the-magick-of-abramelin-duncan-barford-3 - Wish there were more details about how the HGA appears to those who have been successful and finished, but I'll probably buy the book anyway.

Some eastern ways and or teachers proclaim everything is perfect.... I'd say that is true and dandy for the Transcendent that is perfect and "beyond" suffering, it not so true and dandy for those suffering and short of Transcendent Freedom/Being. It's nuts to me to hear of the denial of suffering as being non-existent (aka intellectual by-passing) since it is a core teaching to overcome forms of suffering for most eastern way students and to also help others overcome same. Anyhow one can walk around all day long quoting so and so and say, "all is perfect" but I'd say that is not real (or of an actual realization) until it is so via attainment of Transcendent Freedom/Being.

For Roman Catholics, the moral law (what is good or evil) has been set by God. This story is about obedience to God. the DDJ sees imperfection, e.g. start ch. 5: 天 地 不 仁 之 以 (tian1 di4 bu4 ren2 zhi1 yi3 ) Nature is inhumane, it uses 萬 物 為 芻 狗 也 (wan4 wu4 wei2 chu2 gou3 ye3 ) all living creatures as disposables.

Yoga Sutras 1:38 Would you like to check it?

I think the requirement for some suffering is directly linked to just how obscured one is. Doing such a thing for revenge (tons of obscuration) or money (less so, but still) or what have you seems unlikely to pay dividends and at the very least be quite a difficult journey, as opposed to something like: I want to end my suffering", or "I want to understand the nature of reality". How difficult is ends up being isn't caused by some supernatural force, but by the problematic delusions of the caster. Just my opinion, of course. Having done the ngondro, I am inclined to agree. Struck me precisely the same way.

How can it be both?

I’ve downloaded the Dehn translation (as well as the Mathers) and am reading it slowly. I used to know someone who did the six month version - although they weren’t very forthcoming about the results. I get the impression that there is an authentic core … but also quite a lot of dodgy stuff re magic squares for strange purposes. I was struck by the idea that it is a kind of western ngondro ( which ends with guru yoga which could be compared to the HGA). Interesting.

It wasn't 'us' . But ... wait for it .... ( a Polynesian joke ) ... he weren't called 'Cook' for nothing . No .... I have looked into the concept a bit though . Its an interesting subject ; people that came here and interacted in various ways with the indigenous - pre Capt Cook .

Down on the south coast here is a place the 'white fellahs' call ' Mt Dromedary ' . Capt Cook started that by naming it what he thought it looked like from sea . from a local indigenous man ; '' What ! And WTF is a dromedary anyway ? How dare he call our beautiful mother Gulaga , that anyone can see from the ocean - a woman lying down - a friggen CAMEL ... what an insult ! And , the old people , they told us about that Capt Cook going past , they all saw him , how could you miss it ! Of course, back then we didnt know what it was , a big thing like that with white wings floating on top of the water . The only thing we ever seen like that before was a pelican . Now , is was a long way away and hard to see but they decided it must be a giant pelican , coming back from the dreamtime . Now pelican - he is a greedy fellah, you go fishing, he will steal your fish . if you dont stop him, he will eat all your fish - gobble them up . Imagine what a giant pelican would do . So they were worried that giant greedy pelican would come and steal all our fish and other stuff . But that pelican, he kept going . But later , well, in a way, he came back and he did what the old people feared would happen . '' - going up Gulaga ;

well I'm no expert but I'd add free of karma and any mental or emotional form of conditioning...

Well, yes, just as your post is your "take", although I would proffer the caveat - not my "take", but actually my experience. Which schools, specifically, are you talking about? Isn't that the same as what I suggested in my post: ...also the same, yes? The metaphor of the Gateless Gate comes to mind.

I don't think this is a good example of will, that is more an example of lack of will.