What is your actual understanding of tai-chi principles?

[Mattimo]

Hi all,

 

I am interested in hearing from people who have realized/personally substantiated abstract tai-chi principles. That is to say, I am interested in what various users here have discovered about the bio-mechanics of the human body relative to themselves.

 

Allow me to give an example,

 

In my practice I am beginning to understand the importance of the ground and how power can be generated by pushing down. I am beginning to understand the concept of effortless movement and how "strain and effort" can be detrimental to practice. I am beginning to understand the concept of counter-rotation of the spine, etc.

 

The purpose of this post is to help me gain abstract knowledge based on what other people have discovered so that I may endeavor to substantiate various points for myself.

 

Looking forward to hearing from you,

 

Matt

Edited January 17, 2009 by Mattimo

[Machin Shin]

The last time I did push hands, I mean really did push hands, I was telling the lazy teacher that he didn't know how to run his shop. He countered by saying that I should get a hair cut and quit doing my darma practice.

 

Now where he had his shop, is a salon for cutting hair and making young women look pretty. The lazy teacher is now going to India to learn some darma with an Ishvara. Is that too abstract? The mind can be quite a maze.

 

Oh and I still have my long hair.

[Stigweard]

Hi all,

 

I am interested in hearing from people who have realized/personally substantiated abstract tai-chi principles. That is to say, I am interested in what various users here have discovered about the bio-mechanics of the human body relative to themselves.

 

Allow me to give an example,

 

In my practice I am beginning to understand the importance of the ground and how power can be generated by pushing down. I am beginning to understand the concept of effortless movement and how "strain and effort" can be detrimental to practice. I am beginning to understand the concept of counter-rotation of the spine, etc.

 

The purpose of this post is to help me gain abstract knowledge based on what other people have discovered so that I may endeavor to substantiate various points for myself.

 

Looking forward to hearing from you,

 

Matt

 

Edited January 17, 2009 by Stigweard

[Riyue]

Hi all,

 

I am interested in hearing from people who have realized/personally substantiated abstract tai-chi principles. That is to say, I am interested in what various users here have discovered about the bio-mechanics of the human body relative to themselves.

 

Allow me to give an example,

 

In my practice I am beginning to understand the importance of the ground and how power can be generated by pushing down. I am beginning to understand the concept of effortless movement and how "strain and effort" can be detrimental to practice. I am beginning to understand the concept of counter-rotation of the spine, etc.

 

The purpose of this post is to help me gain abstract knowledge based on what other people have discovered so that I may endeavor to substantiate various points for myself.

 

Looking forward to hearing from you,

 

Matt

tian - di - ren

天 地 人

[Mattimo]

Thanks I guess, lol. I guess I was asking a lot. Good point about spirals Stigweard. Looking at the skeleton itself one can see spirals built into its very structure with bones so aligned that gravity is canceled out.

 

Matt

[adam mizner]

hi

 

in my view pushing down is incorrect. taiji is simply soong and yi. pushing down just makes things rise. we all have diff transmitions, each to there own.

 

spirals are part of taiji but mostly grossly over exagerated in my view.

 

much depends on what family you practice.

 

here are 2 formulas i teach and follow.

 

for form

 

calm

relaxation

sinking

emptiness

movement

 

for push hands

 

calm

relaxation

sinking

grounding

rebounding

 

metta

adam

 

Hi all,

 

I am interested in hearing from people who have realized/personally substantiated abstract tai-chi principles. That is to say, I am interested in what various users here have discovered about the bio-mechanics of the human body relative to themselves.

 

Allow me to give an example,

 

In my practice I am beginning to understand the importance of the ground and how power can be generated by pushing down. I am beginning to understand the concept of effortless movement and how "strain and effort" can be detrimental to practice. I am beginning to understand the concept of counter-rotation of the spine, etc.

 

The purpose of this post is to help me gain abstract knowledge based on what other people have discovered so that I may endeavor to substantiate various points for myself.

 

Looking forward to hearing from you,

 

Matt

[bukejian]

Though, Yiquan is my martial art, and you may be saying this in different words, I would add centering, to both formulas .

Edited January 21, 2009 by bukejian

[thaddeus]

how about this..

it can be summed up by 'not doing'.

e.g. if you try to do 'sinking' or 'centering' etc. chances are you are doing something incorrectly.

[bukejian]

I would think that; You must first have form before you can become formless.

[tumoessence]

I agree with Adam about pushing down. In our school for example we move forwards by gently pulling from the stepping just placed foot and leg. Sinking down into it, power coming from the waist not the hips and legs.

 

Energy follows martial intent or yi. That martial intent is an energetic quality shown in the eight moves and five directions. In other words the effect peng can be generated from almost any move given the intent.

Bill

[steve]

... I am beginning to understand the importance of the ground and how power can be generated by pushing down. .....

 

 

 

in my view pushing down is incorrect.

....

sinking

grounding

rebounding

 

 

I believe you're both talking about the same reality - developing the yi to coordinate and connect (or string together as it's often translated) the joints and the entire body. This is the fundamental source of developing sensitivity, learning to yield, developing fajin power, and so forth. This is why all families of Taijiquan have in common the mindful and slow practice of form. You can only develop the yi and link it to the qi through very slow and diligent practice. This is also why Daoist meditation techniques are so valuable to the Taijiquan student.

[Mattimo]

Ah, very interesting guys. My idea of generating power from pushing down inevitably stemmed from me finding the ground again. In that, I have some tension in the abdominal/back region and in discovering a better connection with the ground by pushing down, I was able to practice a swaying-hands exercise more pleasurably. I will focus more on the waist region and see what I experience.

 

Thanks!

[steve]

Sinking down into it, power coming from the waist not the hips and legs.

 

I have to disagree with this statement.

Any power generated by the waist must be rooted first in the hips and legs.

That is directly out of the Classics:

"It is rooted in the legs, controlled by the waist, and issued through the hands..."

The waist can never act independently of the legs, the waist is simply the articulation between the legs and the torso...

[tumoessence]

I have to disagree with this statement.

Any power generated by the waist must be rooted first in the hips and legs.

That is directly out of the Classics:

"It is rooted in the legs, controlled by the waist, and issued through the hands..."

The waist can never act independently of the legs, the waist is simply the articulation between the legs and the torso...

 

 

I don't really mean to say that the waist's power is independent of the legs and hip and I think your choice of the word rooted is great. I just mean to say that turning the waist is not the same as turning the hips, the hips should be rooted, and supporting the turning of the waist. I see no disagreement.

Try in push hands for example to practice turning the waist while the hips stay relatively still. My experience is that I stay much more rooted in yielding and issuing.

[Stigweard]

I don't really mean to say that the waist's power is independent of the legs and hip and I think your choice of the word rooted is great. I just mean to say that turning the waist is not the same as turning the hips, the hips should be rooted, and supporting the turning of the waist. I see no disagreement.

Try in push hands for example to practice turning the waist while the hips stay relatively still. My experience is that I stay much more rooted in yielding and issuing.

Whilst true it is that we must remain fluid, if we create divisions in the body then the 'pathways' of Fa Jin are impeded. So flexibility in the waist is fine as long as we don't sacrifice our intrinsic or integral strength.

[thaddeus]

Ah, very interesting guys. My idea of generating power from pushing down inevitably stemmed from me finding the ground again. In that, I have some tension in the abdominal/back region and in discovering a better connection with the ground by pushing down, I was able to practice a swaying-hands exercise more pleasurably. I will focus more on the waist region and see what I experience.

 

Thanks!

try this idea..not *pushing* down but releasing..constant and refined release of tension from top down.

T

[Taiji Bum]

I wrote a 64 Saying's booklet for my students a few years back. It was stuff I picked up from my master and things I collected from places like the Tai Chi Classics. This is #41 and it sums up the spirit of my Tai Chi practice pretty well. I was taught the 13 forms were made up of the 8 energies in the arms and the 5 elements in the legs. In the original true taijiquan there is not hard strikiing or kicking and no grinding chokes or holds. There is only calm center in the midst of chaotic activity and NO APPLICATIONS.... only the Tai Chi push, yielding, redirection, evasion, advancing, retreating..... Its hard martial artists that started the whole "applications" thing. They learned the form but never penetrated to the original 13 forms so they added what they knew from other martial arts and really diluted the Art. Anyway, thats what my master told me and here is the gist of what I practice.

 

41

In true Tai Chi there is no attack,

only defense.

Let attacks come as they will,

and join your energy to theirs.

Redirect but cause no harm.

Know your opponent,

but do not let them know you.

When they rise you should appear taller.

When they retreat, stick to them.

By knowing ourselves we know others

and this is the eternal Tai Chi truth.

 

 

Edit: The complete booklet- http://www.thetaobums.com/My-Advanced-Clas...dout-t4267.html

Edited January 22, 2009 by DarinHamel

[steve]

I just mean to say that turning the waist is not the same as turning the hips, the hips should be rooted, and supporting the turning of the waist.

I'm still not in complete agreement on this and I think it's important enough to continue to discuss.

It's probably a semantic issue more than anything but worth clarification, IMO.

I recently had a long discussion with some of my students about exactly this point.

 

What is the waist? How does that differ from the hips?

Anatomically, there is no waist joint. The waist is the junction of the spine and pelvis. When we say that we move from the waist, what we really mean is movement of the lumbosacral spine which includes flexion, extension, lateral bending, and rotation. If the hip joints do not move, the pelvis does not move and motion of the waist without the hips will all be focused on the spine.

 

The Chinese refer to the 'kua' which is not a discreet anatomical structure.

It can be translated as hips or waist and when discussing the kua, the crease in the groin is often indicated.

When the Chinese talk about moving the kua, it's my belief that this motion is a composite of movements in the hips joints and lumbosacral spine. The idea of keeping the hip joints immobile and moving from the lumbosacral spine (waist) is not something I teach or practice. Sure, there are times when I forcefully turn my waist to generate force such as in da lu. For the most part, however, the primary kua movements that we use for yielding and neutralization is motion of the hip joints moreso than the spine. I would agree with Stig's point that all joints must be song and fluid and coordinated with one another.

[Mattimo]

I'm still not in complete agreement on this and I think it's important enough to continue to discuss.

It's probably a semantic issue more than anything but worth clarification, IMO.

I recently had a long discussion with some of my students about exactly this point.

 

What is the waist? How does that differ from the hips?

Anatomically, there is no waist joint. The waist is the junction of the spine and pelvis. When we say that we move from the waist, what we really mean is movement of the lumbosacral spine which includes flexion, extension, lateral bending, and rotation. If the hip joints do not move, the pelvis does not move and motion of the waist without the hips will all be focused on the spine.

 

The Chinese refer to the 'kua' which is not a discreet anatomical structure.

It can be translated as hips or waist and when discussing the kua, the crease in the groin is often indicated.

When the Chinese talk about moving the kua, it's my belief that this motion is a composite of movements in the hips joints and lumbosacral spine. The idea of keeping the hip joints immobile and moving from the lumbosacral spine (waist) is not something I teach or practice. Sure, there are times when I forcefully turn my waist to generate force such as in da lu. For the most part, however, the primary kua movements that we use for yielding and neutralization is motion of the hip joints moreso than the spine. I would agree with Stig's point that all joints must be song and fluid and coordinated with one another.

 

Very enlightening, I appreciate your time in explaining your point of view. Thank you to others who have contributed to this discussion also.

 

Matt

Edited January 23, 2009 by Mattimo

[andymach33]

try this idea..not *pushing* down but releasing..constant and refined release of tension from top down.

T

 

Correct. Constant releasing, not released. Sung. Melting tension within perfect structure.