Immortality - the various views

[goldisheavy]

2) You can train your spirit to live on forever, choosing a new body if you wish

 

3) You can train your existing body to not age, and not die

 

The body is the spirit, and the spirit is the body. In other words, the thoughts, dreams, stars, moon, sun, clouds, and empty space -- this is your body. And two legs, two arms, one head, etc. -- that's spirit.

 

So when you train like this, you don't have two distinct options of immortalizing the spirit or immortalizing the body. Immortality (non-separation) is just one option. You have an option to regard your body as something separate (from spirit, from other bodies, from mind, from universe, from morals, etc.), or you can regard it as a visionary aspect of the whole.

 

If you regard yourself as one aspect of Tao -- that's an illusion.

 

If you regard yourself as the whole Tao -- that's correct vision.

 

 

Why so?

 

Because aspects derive their meaning from context, and context derives its meaning from further context and so on without end. Therefore, to know the meaning of one thing, is to know the meaning of everything. Therefore if you know the meaning of yourself, even if you know it wrongly, you know the meaning of Dao. Why? Because if you know something wrongly it's because you also know something correctly. If there is no correct knowledge for you, there is no wrong knowledge either. So, if you understand this, you are the whole of Tao, and not just a part.

Edited November 19, 2008 by goldisheavy

[picnic]

yes goldisheavy, we agree the options 2 and 3 are common in Taoism and that is why i raised this topic. They are seeing separateness and striving for something (unity) that is already the case.

 

I see wholeness, Isness, one(with no 2)ness. Unfortunately our language speaks of "this does that" so the whole language is raising split mind viewing simply by us using it.

[h.uriahr]

I believe that you can reach a point in your training where you can lengthen your life if you want but ultimately you cannot be free of death, IMO, however, when you die I believe you can appear in bodily form but not exactly as you where. If that makes sense. My personal opinion of course

[hyok]

I wonder though, what is our drive to be immortal? I'm recalling that timeless quote from Wolfgang Peterson's TROY, when Brad Pitt, performing what could be his most suitable role as Achilles, says, "Flank! To the flank!"

 

Just kidding, when he says... Achilles: I'll tell you a secret. Something they don't teach you in your temple. The Gods envy us. They envy us because we're mortal, because any moment might be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we're doomed. You will never be lovelier than you are now. We will never be here again.

 

Even though i'm using an obscure piece of dialog spoken by Brad Pitt in a Wolfgang Peterson movie, there is beauty in this thought. Why do we seek immortality? What waits behind the curtain of this? Will we be able to appreciate the finite qualities of what we consider to be beauty? Will all of this change and will this change be something we wanted? Does it matter? Why do fools fall in love? What makes the sky blue?

 

Is this some game where we are just trying to reach the next level?

[h.uriahr]

I wonder though, what is our drive to be immortal? I'm recalling that timeless quote from Wolfgang Peterson's TROY, when Brad Pitt, performing what could be his most suitable role as Achilles, says, "Flank! To the flank!"

 

Just kidding, when he says... Achilles: I'll tell you a secret. Something they don't teach you in your temple. The Gods envy us. They envy us because we're mortal, because any moment might be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we're doomed. You will never be lovelier than you are now. We will never be here again.

 

Even though i'm using an obscure piece of dialog spoken by Brad Pitt in a Wolfgang Peterson movie, there is beauty in this thought. Why do we seek immortality? What waits behind the curtain of this? Will we be able to appreciate the finite qualities of what we consider to be beauty? Will all of this change and will this change be something we wanted? Does it matter? Why do fools fall in love? What makes the sky blue?

 

Is this some game where we are just trying to reach the next level?

 

You either get immortality now or you get it later, IMO. You reincarnate as many times as it takes but sooner or later we are all going to get there. Better now than later IMO

[picnic]

Why do we seek immortality? What waits behind the curtain of this? Will we be able to appreciate the finite qualities of what we consider to be beauty?

quite! life is quite wonderful, every moment of it is magical and always becoming something new. To fear death is like the caterpillar fearing its end, only to find that it is reborn a beautiful butterfly. Also, none of us feared birth, and look what a nice surprise that was

[goldisheavy]

yes goldisheavy, we agree the options 2 and 3 are common in Taoism and that is why i raised this topic. They are seeing separateness and striving for something (unity) that is already the case.

 

I see wholeness, Isness, one(with no 2)ness. Unfortunately our language speaks of "this does that" so the whole language is raising split mind viewing simply by us using it.

 

That's an interesting observation about language. I see every experience as symbolic in essence, so, to me, language is not just words that we speak, but an occurrence like wind is also language. The wholeness is just as symbolic as the separateness. So I don't think the symbols inherently lead to a perception of seemingly beyond question and seemingly objective duality. BUT, and this is a big BUT, the way we, or I, tend to speak, perhaps that's true. But should I blame the language and symbols for that or should I blame myself (or take responsibility)?

 

I haven't made up my mind about this. I don't know what is right or what is best with regard to language. Is silence truly golden? I am not so sure. I believe the best thing to do is to explain things in a nuanced and spiritually disciplined manner, keeping the mind on the true meaning and not on the superficial, as much as possible. I imagine if I ever had a friend and I asked him or her a question, and she or he said, "...." nothing...., would I be happy? I think mostly I wouldn't like that. I appreciate if someone takes my assumptions and works with them. Maybe directly challenge some of my assumptions, but usually the smoothest way is to encourage me to follow up the consequences of my assumptions and to see if I like what I see. Then I will change my assumptions if I realize they lead to unwanted consequences.

 

So, the spoken language is a dangerous thing, like fire, but if used responsibly I think it's a great tool, at least for a while. I think the time is not yet upon us to move completely beyond the spoken language. But I don't know. I'd be very happy to hear what others think about this.

Edited November 19, 2008 by goldisheavy

[exorcist_1699]

We can't understand Immortality because we are entangled by Science and technology , and their concepts and operational relation to Nature . Precisely speaking, we are entangled in a post-heavenly world with its specific material and apparatus ; Fish seldom know it is living in water ; Science does not believe in immortality in any sense,our daily experience also tells us there is no immortals..

 

We are like people who live in the pseudo-world generated by an omnipotent system of AI in the movie "Matrix" ;All people think that their ways towards death are reasonable and inevitable ;what we are lack of is another dimension in our thinking : pre-heavenly , which unfortunately can only come from another culture..

 

So, the proof can only come from our taoist cultivation ; yet, only after having reached the level of pre-heavenly , can we find the time structure of our life being changed : Every moment of our life seems prolonged or forever prolonged , year as a criterion to measure our life starts to become meaningless ... and things that will happen in future appear to us beforehand at the present moment ...etc

Edited November 21, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[picnic]

I think the wish to be immortal is a mistake and misunderstanding of what we really are. To be human, or even a higher human, forever, would be hell not heaven. Being immortal, (more so long-living) would make death more feared and life more dull.

 

Understanding who we really are, that is we are the entire universe experiencing itself, a construct of the Tao come to enjoy itself, then we see that we are it, we come an go in a trillion forms and we love life, and death. After all, what s death but the beginning of life?

[Taiji Bum]

Being immortal, (more so long-living) would make death more feared and life more dull.

Dude....... come on! Immortality or even an extremely long life span would be awesome! You would have the time to explore every corner of this beautiful planet and still have time for the small, even better stuff like raising babies. On top of that once you've probed every experience this world has to offer it would be about time humanity would be looking to seriously go into space and you could then see every corner of this beautiful universe. You could just relax and earn and save money for 50 years to become financially independent and never have to work again and still be young enough to enjoy life. Immortality would be awesome!

[hyok]

This discussion reminds me of a movie I saw recently entitled The Man From Earth. It's a fascinating story if immortality interests you because the writers took the time to really analyze what life as an immortal would be like.

 

It's very engaging and definitely worth your while.

[Unconditioned]

Many people in contemporary new age take the phrase, I am already an enlightened, I just need to realise it, in a too litteral sense. So once they understand the words, they assume the understand the meaning. And they say, now I am an enlightened.

 

I toss this one around a bit personally but try to add in that enlightenment is just a concept. Like all concepts, the idea of enlightenment needs to be 'taken off' too. I believe that the statement is true, however, it is very easy to confuse realization with understanding a concept. One is experiential and real, the other is just a label.

 

It's like looking at the packaging of food, talking about how great it is, how wonderful it looks, the texture, the color, how to cook it, best times to serve it, the right manners to use when eating, etc. but all the while having never eaten the food itself.

[picnic]

... you could then see every corner of this beautiful universe....

I can and do know the entire universe as it is in me

 

Wanting to do that as a human form with human limitations is a limited view. Experiencing the inner world, which is the root of the outer world, lets you know the entire universe without leaving your door. There is bliss now, here now, there is no need to strive towards an other day, after all, now is the future people once dreamed of.

[goldisheavy]

I wonder though, what is our drive to be immortal?

 

I think that's a very good question.

 

Mostly it's not so much about being immortal but it is about disliking dying. And what is dying? Dying is any event that diverges the perception of your self-image from your idealized self-image. So many people have a certain idealized self-image. That's how they would like to appear to themselves and to others. And then there is what actually appears. The more there is a difference between these two, the more one suffers.

 

So what happens is that people tend to believe in a relatively constant idealized self-image, while what actually appears (unreal as it may be) changes all the time and not only is there a mismatch, but the mismatch tends to increase with time in old age. So when it comes time to die, people mentally say (they don't actually have to pronounce this in their mind, but that's the meaning they hold in the mind, be it tacit or otherwise), "I don't want this experience. I don't like what I see happening to my body, because I imagine that I should look like that, but instead I look like this." So encountering a disagreeable opinion, catching a disease, getting wrinkles, losing some mobility, losing some sharpness in the senses, all of these threaten the idealized self-image, and all of them are death to some extent, although we don't call these "death". And the person deduces (quite logically) that death must be very similar to these changes, but vastly more drastic, and therefore vastly more unpleasant.

 

So all this mess of fear and suffering comes from a divergence of intent. On one hand, the people really believe in physicality without any question (mostly). On the other hand, they believe, truly, that they are these idealized self-images. These two beliefs conflict with each other. The intent that enacts these beliefs into life acts against itself. This is the basis of internal conflict (all conflict is always internal). But instead of questioning one's own beliefs -- Is belief in physicality an unassailable belief or is it very questionable? Is my idealized self-image really who I am, or am I something else, or something more? -- people usually seek to change external reality. So they cling to their idealized self-image, and most effort, physical and mental is directed toward getting the outward reality into compliance. There are some exception. For example sometimes a smoker, someone who identifies with other smokers, becomes a non-smoker and thus changes their idealized self-image, but mostly people prefer to leave their self-idea alone and try to affect the external appearances instead.

 

Immortality is a natural wish that arises from that. Fulfilling this wish while leaving unchanged all the factors that cause the wish to arise in the first place -- that's a recipe for great suffering, just as picnic said.

 

Spiritual immortality is getting into a state of being where your intent is non-divergent. In other words, when appearances are exactly what you intend them to be, that's immortality. This can happen after the person challenges the big mass of beliefs one holds so dear. It's the beliefs that fracture intent! External world -- that's a belief. There is basically just what appears. Calling some of it "world" and some of it "my mind" -- all that is just your belief network structuring your experience. Structured experience is always and necessarily fractured experience. And fractures within experience are painful.

 

So the taoist practice is mostly about a gentle, progressive, natural, smooth destructuring of one's beliefs which leads to destructuring of experience which leads to a manifested unification of intent. In reality intent is already, always whole. But we don't feel this, do we? That's the effect that beliefs have on experience.

 

And magic is nothing other than intent acting directly toward appearance without intermediary of rules, laws, and other structures. If you have to store something in dan tian, you rely on many structures. You rely on the notion of "energy", and then on "dan tian", and you have ideas of internal and external world, and so on. You'll never feel true magic that way. You'll never feel grace that way. All you can feel is just a little more freedom because in addition to expending energy through hands and feet you also now have qi-jing energy output as another option. That is certainly an improvement over the naive physicalism that most people adhere to, but in the grand scheme of things it is a very small-minded approach to magic.

 

An immortal person is inherently magical, because to them intent is appearance and appearance is intent and their life is a life of endless wish-fulfillment and fearlessness. To an immortal there is nothing within appearances to protect as a dire necessity, no appearance to strive for as a necessity, and things have meaning, but the meaning is gentle. The meaning is not a bind. It's like when a person plays a game of chess. That person still wants to win and enjoys the game, and if they lose they get upset, but it's never a crushing defeat. It's always fun. Win or lose the game is fun. There is always the next game. That's the attitude. So there is a level of involvement or care, but it's not drastic like for most people. Ordinary people are devastated by many changes in life. They get so deadly serious about so many things and get so very affected and offended and shamed by certain displays. They don't get the game. They don't see it as a game. They take it seriously. But an immortal gets life as a game. In the game, we still care and love but never devastated.

Edited November 21, 2008 by goldisheavy

[exorcist_1699]

Besides blood looks white/ milk after having experienced a period of pre-heavenly way of breathing , another funny phenomenon Taoist masters claimed is that the immortals look shadow-less under sunlight ( ghost can't appear under sunlight as we all know ) . But a Taoist immortal , who is composed of 100% qi of yang , is different.

 

It is said that ghost is 100% composed of qi of yin . Human is around half and half ( the percentage depending on your age ) . Somewhere hidden in our body is the pre-heavenly yang , if we dig it out and refine it , everlasting life ( both physical and spiritual ) is said to be firmly grasped in our hands . However, before that ,we are requested to :

 

1) understand the significance of these two levels (post and pre-heavenly);

 

2) understand the features , location , and relocation ( because of change of said levels) of yin and yang in our body.

Edited November 22, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[goldisheavy]

Besides blood looks white/ milk after having experienced a period of pre-heavenly way of breathing , another funny phenomenon Taoist masters claimed is that the immortals look shadow-less under sunlight ( ghost can't appear under sunlight as we all know ) . But a Taoist immortal , who is composed of 100% qi of yang , is different.

 

The appearances are really completely unlimited in their variety. There are ultimately no rules on how and when and what should appear. An immortal is someone who understand this. An immortal can make his blood look like Pepsi Cola or like tar or whatever. An immortal can leave a bigger shadow than would ordinarily seem warranted or can leave 50 shadows, or the shadow might not match the person, or there might be no shadow, or there might be 10 people acting as one person, and so on.

 

I repeat again, the appearances have no limit at all. Period. No limit. To try to order and to structure appearances into hierarchies, progressions and access levels and so on is a habit of our particular mindset. Our mindset is also the very thing that blocks immortality from being apparent.

[deci belle]

[Taiji Bum]

another funny phenomenon Taoist masters claimed is that the immortals look shadow-less under sunlight

Fascinating! I'd never heard that before.

[adam mizner]

not sure exactly what you mean by ghosts, but i beg to differ about not being able to appear in sunlight.

 

as for imortality its simple, dont be born, but that is outside of daoism as far as i know. the daoist imortal idea is more like a god, heavenly being or mergence with a formless sphere (wuji). it is poss to extend the physical life for a very long long time but why you would want to i dont know.

 

metta

adam

 

Besides blood looks white/ milk after having experienced a period of pre-heavenly way of breathing , another funny phenomenon Taoist masters claimed is that the immortals look shadow-less under sunlight ( ghost can't appear under sunlight as we all know ) . But a Taoist immortal , who is composed of 100% qi of yang , is different.

 

It is said that ghost is 100% composed of qi of yin . Human is around half and half ( the percentage depending on your age ) . Somewhere hidden in our body is the pre-heavenly yang , if we dig it out and refine it , everlasting life ( both physical and spiritual ) is said to be firmly grasped in our hands . However, before that ,we are requested to :

 

1) understand the significance of these two levels (post and pre-heavenly);

 

2) understand the features , location , and relocation ( because of change of said levels) of yin and yang in our body.

[exorcist_1699]

The reason is simple .

 

If there is a possible way of becoming a god, then I will try , no matter how hard it is.

 

Ancient Greeks told us that there are many gods , but they did not mention any concrete way of becoming one . In Taoism , we get the way and it can be proved , so why not trying to become one of the gods/immortals ?

 

Besides , the process of getting rid of eating , sleeping , breathing , thinking.....should be fantastic ; How does a moth feel when leaving its cocoon ? How can a mind that solve all problems but without having any ideas ?

Edited November 24, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[benny]

Do you guys know Aubrey de Grey?

[Taiji Bum]

If there is a possible way of becoming a god, then I will try , no matter how hard it is.

I love your attitude. Why settle for anything less than the best or highest, right?

[goldisheavy]

[adam mizner]

hi

i dont think that is exactly it... i would even say that that is the cause of samsara.

 

metta adam

p.s i enjoy your posts

 

Alright, alright! That's exactly it. The nature of appearances is symbolic and the nature of symbols is inconceivability. The conceivable and the inconceivable are one whole, and the mental boundary between conceivable and the inconceivable cannot be expressed in terms of conceivability or inconceivability -- that is what's completely beyond extremes.

That's the mind seal of the immortals.

Wear out? Apparently you don't understand intentionality yet. Karma is a Sanskrit word for intent (same as Chinese yi). May I suggest you forget the word "Karma" and just use "intent" in your thinking. You will be a lot less confused. I recommend the following question for your contemplation: Is intent finite or infinite? In other words, does it have a beginning or end or any other boundary? Once you contemplate this, you will no longer be waiting for anything to wear out.

 

Cheers my friend!

[exorcist_1699]

I love your attitude. Why settle for anything less than the best or highest, right?

 

My life is full of sufferings and troubles , only by becoming a near-god , can I rescue myself

 

Why not praying to God, some Christians may ask ...

 

But from Buddhist / Taoist point of view, we already are some kind of god-towards-God lost in a pseudo-world / pseudo-mind , just by finding out the right road , we can rescue ourselves .

Edited November 25, 2008 by exorcist_1699