Wuji Dimension

[gendao]

Wuji (無極) is the indescribale subtle originalness of the universe itself which, through spontaneous expressiveness, gave birth to the Taiji and the '10,000 myriad things'.

 

How would one access Wu Ji? Ahh ... the mystery of mysteries.

 

Excuse me for answering a question with a question ... but how does a single drop of water, once evaporated from the sea, finds its way unerringly back to the ocean?

Fantastic quote! I may have to quote you on that later, or is that a preexisting quote?

[Stigweard]

Fantastic quote! I may have to quote you on that later, or is that a preexisting quote?

 

I am quite sure you can consider that quote in the public domain It does kinda lead the mind in interesting directions yes?

[goldisheavy]

How would one access the wuji dimension? How does it relate (practically) to Taoist Practices.

 

Thanks,

 

You can only access illusions. If wuji is real, then you are already it and don't need to access it. If it's a state of mind that has a beginning and an end, if it's an object of perception of any kind, it's an illusion -- that is to say, it has the power/tendency to be deceptive.

 

It's hard to discuss things like that, because people think in terms of discrete states of mind, time intervals, objects, etc... and mostly people have hard time relating to anything that's none of those. Our entire language is geared toward discreteness and illusions. And it takes a very skilled and long winded explanation, preferably one specially suited to you personally, to annul all the preconceptions. It's certainly not anything you could understand by practice, because when people practice they still utilize structured intent and the ideas about the discreteness of phenomena.

[Spectrum]

You can only access illusions. If wuji is real, then you are already it and don't need to access it. If it's a state of mind that has a beginning and an end, if it's an object of perception of any kind, it's an illusion -- that is to say, it has the power/tendency to be deceptive.

 

Yes and now. There is a difference between normal consciousness and wuji consciousness or dimension as it's called in this thread. If there was not grandma would not have ever lifted the trailer off grandpa that summer he drank that 6 pack and it fell on him. Once a person with training is familiar with the minds ability to zero out you might be able to "access" it at anytime, but until that point most people only experience emptiness or the complete uncommited potential of humaness in those "special" moments of life. Like grandma lifting that travel trailer off grandpas chest.

 

You can only access illusions.

 

Not true. If I zero out and you attack me, you hurt yourself. That is physical fact.

 

Wuji is not only a state of mind, it is physiological as much as it is psychological. As long as your thinking about stuff, your not IN wuji, yes wuji is the base in which we can act from, but to say that everyone has access is bogus because not everyone can perform pushing hands or combat as well as the next. Again, at this point I'm not saying everyone is calling it wuji, i've had the honor of briefly working with bouncers who just call it their "zone", and this is far from any mystical state, but they recognize the clarity and instantanous nature of thought and action as it relates to their immediate environment. This is a state of mind which aids problem solving, and this is the state of mind that is cultivated through the meditative movements and stillness practices of classical chinese martial healing arts, and the aliveness that contemporary mixed martial art feeds upon.

 

How would one access the wuji dimension? How does it relate (practically) to Taoist Practices.

 

Universal Post, Pile Standing, Standing Meditation or Sustained Slow Moving Meditation. This is the most fundamental reason for using these practices, is to experience wuji, experiencing sung (relaxed readiness), and then practically experiencing that state in the moving forms of whatever your "practice" is.

 

Most people stp pracice short when something starts burning while standing, but the point of standing is to strengthenyour nerves and mind (yi). When you mind stills from the work you are doing, you are on the right course. So what comes after burnning?

 

- if one would answer "yes", by what process can one evaluate and legitimize one's own experience?

 

Martial art is a very legitimate way of evaluating experience based on the success of failure of the student. Why is martial art irreversably linked to taoist practices? because survival is the ultimate decision maker.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Spectrum

[goldisheavy]

There is a difference between normal consciousness and wuji consciousness

 

If you define wuji consciousness in such clearly delineated conditional terms, then wuji consciousness is just an ordinary consciousness that's not very interesting except that it's rare. So for example it would be like a strange fruit that's got the same nutrients and similar taste to all other fruits, except it's slightly different and rare. So you're not looking at any kind of fundamental breakthrough there.

 

If you like to collect rare things, that's fine, then it's fair game. If you want a fundamental breakthrough, then you have to keep looking, because understanding the nature of consciousness is not the same thing as shifting the experiential flavor of said consciousness.

 

However, once you understand the nature of consciousness you may be better equipped, as it were, to change the flavor of consciousness at will.

 

The ocean moved and took shape of the waves. But even so, the waves are nothing but ocean.

Edited March 9, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Spectrum]

Fundamentally I like to break rare things. Then I don't have to look for rarity. It's all around.

How close would you stand to my treasure trove while we have this conversation?

 

It is fundamental to movement and mind. If it was not there would be no such thing as fight or flight state.

 

For example: what your saying in koan (although a fun mental masturbation) defines the following two mens movement as fundamentally the same. But are very clearly not the same. One experiences wuji as the connective root from which all motion eminates, the other does not.

 

Which is which? And who is who? And why is this so?

 

vQEe-6z5UfU

CXZwVLjTzC0

 

Waves are for surfing. Catch em. Ride em. Paddle back out.

Edited March 10, 2009 by Spectrum

[goldisheavy]

what your saying in koan (although a fun mental masturbation) defines the following two mens movement as fundamentally the same. But are very clearly not the same. One experiences wuji as the connective root from which all motion eminates, the other does not.

 

This is the problem with mortals. They are ever after the tangible, the relative, the visceral experience. They cannot trust something abstract or ultimate. They have no understanding of the role of the ultimate within the relative. This is spoken of by Chuang Tzu when a sage was criticized for his tree (teachings) being too gnarly and wild (too disconnected and far removed from reality) as to be useless for "practical" life. And Chuang Tzu replied that you can plant it in the land of emptiness and be no one in particular resting in its shade.

 

The point is, if you're a pragmatic person, you are likely to be hopeless. You'll be looking to get your pipes to stop leaking. You'll want a bigger pay check. You'll want better health and stronger/faster muscles. You'll want cleverer mind and better eye sight. But the Dao will elude you.

 

Dao takes a certain kind of pragmatics and not just any pragmatism. You must be pragmatic enough to avoid self-lies, but not so pragmatic that you cannot face the ultimate at all.

 

Which is which? And who is who? And why is this so?

 

vQEe-6z5UfU

CXZwVLjTzC0

 

Utterly impossible to tell. That's because enlightenment is signless. There is no sign of enlightenment. You cannot tell who is enlightened. Enlightened people don't have big noses or big ears and they don't all walk a certain way.

 

The gentlemanly grandpa might be an idiot and the wild break dancer might be a real master. Or both could be idiots. Or both could be masters. Or maybe the grandpa is the master and the break dancer is an idiot.

 

One thing is for sure -- you won't know this until you yourself become a master.

Edited March 10, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Spectrum]

Utterly impossible to tell. That's because enlightenment is signless. There is no sign of enlightenment. You cannot tell who is enlightened. Enlightened people don't have big noses or big ears and they don't all walk a certain way.The gentlemanly grandpa might be an idiot and the wild break dancer might be a real master. Or both could be idiots. Or both could be masters. Or maybe the grandpa is the master and the break dancer is an idiot. One thing is for sure -- you won't know this until you yourself become a master.

 

You like to hear yourself talk. I wasn't talking about enlightenment, I was talking about wuji. Truth speaks for itself. Keep living in your dream world of words. Your talking around your own obsticles that the rest of us don't share.

 

Physics are truth.

rAicu-IPjMw

[goldisheavy]

You like to hear yourself talk. I wasn't talking about enlightenment, I was talking about wuji.

 

"Wuji" is a word that has meaning for those who are either enlightened or are well on their way to enlightenment. So yea, it's very much related. That's because the quality of your mindset (which is to say, your degree of enlightenment) determines your quality experience (which is to say, the experience of what you call "wuji").

 

Truth speaks for itself.

 

Sorry, truth does not speak at all. Nor does it listen. If you say "truth speaks" then you are implying that phenomena have the power to suggest a specific meaning. However, what you don't understand, is the meaning that phenomena seem to suggest to you strongly depends on your mindset, on your core beliefs about the character of reality.

 

Keep living in your dream world of words.

 

This is actually a blessing. It's not a damnation.

 

Your talking around your own obsticles that the rest of us don't share.

 

I hope not!! If I had the same obstacles as you, I'd be the same moron as you. I hope my obstacles are vastly more subtle and refined and tricky than your obstacles.

 

Physics are truth.

 

Physics is truth in some modalities of experience. It's not truth in my dreams, for example, just to give you a very simplistic example. Physics is not the ultimate truth of experience.

Edited March 10, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Spectrum]

Physics is truth in some modalities of experience.

 

Winkest link in your chain of reasoning. Survival is where Jesus vanished into the crowd. Survival is at the root. Time in the forest is practical. Your approach to problem solving is intellectual to me at this point. Does it solve pain? Someone might punch a whole in you and see themselves I'm sure. Nothing new here. Talk is cheap. Walk.

 

On Wuji: If I can sell enlightenment in the form of wuji I'm sure people would spend money on it. As it is, it smells fresh, feels good, flows, adapts and changes into useful tools for every occasion. Theres nothing to it. Ask anyone.

 

Edited again:

This is the problem with mortals

 

I missed this until now. never mind.

Edited March 10, 2009 by Spectrum

[goldisheavy]

Survival is at the root.

 

Oh, it's at the root of something alright. That something is called anxiety, misery and foolhardiness.

 

Time in the forest is practical. Your approach to problem solving is intellectual to me at this point.

 

I have nothing against forests. When you move to the forest, do you take your mindset with you? Because if yes, then just moving to the forest you're wasting your time if your own mindset is what's hindering you. Like my favorite singer sings (paraphrased), "Where will you hide from the rain if it rains within!".

 

On the other hand, if you just need a quiet time for reflection, because your powers of concentration are low or your interest in the topic is weak, then may I suggest a library or even your own apartment, if you live alone, or if your mates are gone for the time being?

 

If your mind is not easily disturbed by the noises, then you can take a walk around the block. If you can go to the forest, that's very nice, but if not, you're not stuck by any means.

 

Does it solve pain? Someone might punch a whole in you and see themselves I'm sure. Nothing new here. Talk is cheap. Walk.

 

It "solves" pain like nothing else. It's like becoming the source of all health and moving beyond an idea of health altogether. It works even if you find yourself in a realm with no body, unlike much of the healing techniques that rely on having a body to work.

 

By the way, being mortal vs. immortal is not a big deal. A mortal is someone whose mind is dominated by the concerns of mortals. And an immortal is someone whose mind is not dominated by the concerns of mortals. It's that simple. It doesn't even mean you cannot have some concern at all -- the key word there is "dominated". It's nothing special. Your dog or cat might be an immortal for all you know. It's easily possible.

Edited March 10, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Spectrum]

Oh, it's at the root of something alright. That something is called anxiety, misery and foolhardiness.

Nah. Original Survival is what the root waters. Wuji. Complete release from stress and anxiety. The primordial state of nonbeing.

It "solves" pain like nothing else.

You talking in circles about animals being immortals.

Learn to stand and walk, then we'll talk animal. Nice hamster wheel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrain

 

Edited March 10, 2009 by Spectrum

[Spectrum]

 

Don't spill it if you can't fill it.

 

"Man, feed me or get the hell outta my head-space." - Abram Girling

 

A poem by Master Hand Kuo

 

The universal post is a mystical form of martial arts

We can never fully understand the way it is done

It seems like an embrace with a smiling face

You use your strength from within

You are relaxed and use no force

It is like clouds floating in the wind from all directions

You use forces from the universe to substantiate your strength

Your strength comes from your breathing

You do not hold fast, leaving a lot of room to move

You do not bend to greater strength

So smoothly you move and so naturally

Your breathing and your limb movements should not be impeded

It is like moving in space

In and out of the highest peaks and clouds

Gliding through air and clouds

Floating along with the winds

Graceful yet composed

Always contain calmness and peace

Head upheld high with pride

You embrace the world below you

As clear and pure as an underground brook

Like lead turning into silver spinning to the moon

Looking into an antique mirror to look deep into your soul

Your cup is filled to the brim

Absolutely free of restraint and free of self

You could fly as though you had wings

Head towards the limitless horizon

Like throwing a pebble into water

The circles get larger and larger

With your hands you push open the limits of the universe

You embrace from within

Heaven and earth and the ten thousand things capture your thoughts

The eyes look outside with determination

Up and down your strength flows

You push and you embrace continuously

Your thoughts should be pure

This should clear your mind

This should curb all illness

You always return to the center

You can attack or defend at will

You must have a will of iron

The principle of this is to strengthen

To go for happiness and health

Your body will benefit from this

This has been handed down from the ancients

This form of exercise can help you without limits

[33865_1494798762]

How would one access the wuji dimension? How does it relate (practically) to Taoist Practices.

 

Thanks,

 

In order to access (in lack of better terms) Wu Ji, you will have to make an entrance out of nowhere.

And that is spontaneity. Maybe a shock, I don't know, but no effort reveal Wu Ji.

There is nothing second to Wu Ji and as such there is no other way. Sounds very ancient lol - but that is a fact.

 

Since real movement has no direction and any direction will only lead us back, back to the experience setteling the goal (of the direction!), we can never truly want to experience Wu Ji. It is suicide.

 

The Wu Ji experience is absolute, there is no other. Only the life pulse, but no concept to it. No mind, no thought of opposites - It is all one. There is no light, yet there is no darkness. No reflexes and no shadows. response and stimuli are one all together. Yang becoming Yin, creating energy but no energy is used.

 

It is difficult (ok - impossible:) to talk about, nothing being said matters, so give me a break. lol

[Spectrum]

nothing being said matters, so give me a break.

 

you hit it hi tit

 

the break

[33865_1494798762]

you hit it hi tit

 

the break

 

 

 

Maybe this little feller can tell, he seems to hit right spot on:

 

[Machin Shin]

 

As immortals do when they open a taoism lineage, they will reserve a zone in the universe and so that their students can input or withdraw energy to the zone. It is a secrete from long time ago but it is now easy to expalin because we are now all very scientific.

 

 

Man this is soo kewl!! It's exactly like a game of mage the ascension were all the competing factions have a realm for practicing their personal truth. I mean sorcery. I showed up once in one of the books, I should get a royalty check. But nooo public domain being what it is I get screwed out of how much money?

 

 

I 'm gonna find a way to file a lawsuit........

[33865_1494798762]

Edited March 11, 2009 by Guest

[Spectrum]

Edited March 11, 2009 by Spectrum

[Zhongyongdaoist]

He's back!

 

Wuji Space

 

I prefer to think of a 'wuji space' rather than dimension, this is more in line mathematical usage. Such a wuji space would be four dimensional, but not 'a fourth dimension'. In ordinary usage people often speak of the fourth dimension when they are really meaning to refer to a four dimensional space being considered as an 'alternate reality', however a 'dimension' is only a straight line, thus in our ordinary experience we experience three dimensions as extended space and one dimension as extended time. For shorthand let's call a four dimensional space a 4D space. So I tend to think of wuji as a 4D space, such a space is called a hyperspace to distinguish it from the ordinary 3D space of our sensory experience. This is actually leading somewhere so if you have some patience and a little curiosity you can start learning how the mathematics of hyperspace can be used to 'model' traditional 'mystical' notions and lead to an illuminating way to speak about them.

 

In our 3D space we experience space as extended about us and time as a line of experience which is extended through this space. This 3D space is filled with 3D objects, some of which are so big that they define our experience, others are small enough to pick up and look at, in that that series of events which we call a 'timeline'. In a 4D space the 'fourth dimension' of time could be experienced as as an extended part of an object, just as we can pick up a three dimensional object and pass it around among ourselves. Something like a universe could be thought of as a four dimensional object, in such an object all of space/time would already 'exist', all of what some resident of this universe would consider to be their past, present and future, for example, could be examined from a 4D perspective, and the whole of that future accurately 'predicted' and that without even raising problems about freewill and predestination. For good or ill, only a 5D being could pick up say, our universe as a 4D object, and be able to give such infallible 'predictions' and whether they could or would even care to communicate such information to us is another matter entirely.

 

Originally, I had intended to go a little further with this and show how one could use such a 4D 'wuji space' to model the 'pre-Heaven' diagram of the eight gua as a hypercube in 4D space, but to go further would involve some significant digressions and I am not sure that anyone is really interested in me going further. Also I am not sure how to proceed. I was never completely satisfied with my series of posts in 'Demons' as a vehicle for my thought. In my little vacation from The Tao Bums I have been thinking about better ways to do this, and I may have come up with one. So if anyone would like me to continue along this vein post a reply here and I will see what I can do, right now I do have some time on my hands, but his could change shortly.

 

Anyone wanting to pursue this on their own might find the classic, Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions by Edwin Abbott Abbott, a place to begin. In using hyperspace to model mystical experience I am only following the lead of Ouspensky's Tertium Organum, which introduced me to the concept some forty odd (some might even say very odd) years ago. For a more up to date version of Flatland, you can hardly beat Ian Stewart's Flatterland. By the way, Stewart has written an excellent introduction to the mathematics of symmetry, Why Beauty is Truth. Symmetry, in the mathematical sense, is a study of how some things can keep changing and always remain the same, a rather suggestive concept in itself.

[rain]

He's back!

 

"Something like a universe could be thought of as a four dimensional object, in such an object all of space/time would already 'exist', all of what some resident of this universe would consider to be their past, present and future, for example, could be examined from a 4D perspective, and the whole of that future accurately 'predicted' and that without even raising problems about freewill and predestination. For good or ill, only a 5D being could pick up say, our universe as a 4D object, and be able to give such infallible 'predictions' and whether they could or would even care to communicate such information to us is another matter entirely."

 

 

So your basicly saying that "a 5 year old can understand a 4 year old better than a 3 year old"?

 

But at the same time you say that only the 4 year old can understand the 4 year old?

That sounds like twice stated limited linear time to me.

 

Why would it be necessary to have a 5D to predict a 4D's future if it is as you state; " ...-four dimensional object, in such an object all of space/time would already 'exist', all of what some resident of this universe would consider to be their past, present and future,"?

 

Where are you?

 

regards from anohter dull knife in the drawer who happens to have had some wine ;D

Edited March 11, 2009 by rain

[goldisheavy]

Man this is soo kewl!! It's exactly like a game of mage the ascension were all the competing factions have a realm for practicing their personal truth. I mean sorcery. I showed up once in one of the books, I should get a royalty check. But nooo public domain being what it is I get screwed out of how much money?

I 'm gonna find a way to file a lawsuit........

 

Blah. Where do you think these games take their inspiration from?

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Thank you for your interest Rain.

 

Let's look at a difference between a 2D space (though we would usually call a 2D space a surface, surfaces in higher dimensions become more complex, the surface of a 4D hypercube for example is made up of eight 3D cubes, thus to anticipate myself, its applicability to the pre-Heaven pagua, so I have just simplified down the notion of 'space' and made it applicable to lower dimensions), like say that bottom of box. The box itself exists in 3D space, now imagine that the bottom of the box is inhabited by some insects, these are crawling insects and they think of space solely in terms of 2 dimensions. Here you are, a cool and groovy 3D being (actually you are a 4D being, but because people usually define themselves from the perspective of their 3D manifestation, i.e., their bodies, I thought I would only emphasize that) who is watching these insects crawl around on the bottom of this box. Suppose two of them, say, George and Fred, were talking to each other just at the moment you decide to pick one up and put him down in another part of the box. Let's say it was George who was picked up. Suddenly, George, much to his astonishment, who just a moment ago was speaking to Fred, finds himself face to face with Joe, much to Joe's astonishment. Joe is flabbergasted to see George 'appear' out of nowhere talking away in mid-sentence, Fred is nonplussed at George's disappearance. When George realizes that he has been miraculously transported to where Joe is, both are amazed because George got there without going through the intervening bug space(!?bug space is the two dimensional space that bugs experience as reality, which of course to us is only the bottom of the box), because neither of them has any knowledge of a third dimension, though they are familiar with the wild ramblings of Bill, the resident nut case, with his unbelievable stories of alien abductions and other such nonsense. Immediately Joe and George go off to find Fred and to find out what has happened to him. After walking three bug hours (Bug hours are of course one of many divisions of bug time, one of the major divisions being how long it takes a rational bug, in a sound bug body, to walk across all of bug-space, otherwise known as the bottom of the box), they find Fred surrounded by a veritable throng of insects, listening to his wild story about how there he was talking to old George when suddenly George up and vanished completely. Well, just imagine what all the bugs thought when George and Joe showed up with their own astonishing tale! Maybe that Bill wasn't so crazy after all, or maybe its a disinformation plot by some sinister bug government organization, and who, or perhaps more important and at the same time more sinister, what ( , Oh No!) are those gray bugs anyway?

 

Well, I hope that makes things a little clearer, most of the points I am trying to make are simple analogies between dimensions and starting to think about them in relation in terms of 2D space and 3D space is a great way to sharpen any dull knife. That is the whole reason behind Flatland and the other books I mentioned, to start one thinking about the relations between higher dimensions as being similar to the relations between lower dimensions which are part of our everyday experience

 

As to why it would require a 5D being to manipulate a 4D object, that is because just as we can only manipulate 3D objects as an event sequence on a timeline, so there would need to be a timeline in which 4D objects could be manipulated as an event sequence, and thus the need of a fifth dimension which would serve to create a 5D space/time continuum, just as we experience 3D objects in a 4D space/time continuum.

 

Answering your deeper question about how a 5D being might be able to know the whole life story of a 4D being, is a little more complex, but if there is enough interest I may attempt to answer it.

[Machin Shin]

Blah. Where do you think these games take their inspiration from?

 

 

From my teaching that I recieved so long ago. Roleplaying the nights away instead of underage drinking. Studying the texts to learn the rules, waiting for my personal book of mystic words. Finally in 2006 there it is, after a couple years of retreat and empowerments.

 

Timothy Leary and Ram Das don't get lost in the Wuji dimensions. Maybe a half century floating near formlessness will clean up their use of soma for enlightenment.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Machin Shin

[33865_1494798762]

If you define wuji consciousness in such clearly delineated conditional terms, then wuji consciousness is just an ordinary consciousness that's not very interesting except that it's rare. So for example it would be like a strange fruit that's got the same nutrients and similar taste to all other fruits, except it's slightly different and rare. So you're not looking at any kind of fundamental breakthrough there.

 

If you like to collect rare things, that's fine, then it's fair game. If you want a fundamental breakthrough, then you have to keep looking, because understanding the nature of consciousness is not the same thing as shifting the experiential flavor of said consciousness.

 

However, once you understand the nature of consciousness you may be better equipped, as it were, to change the flavor of consciousness at will.

 

The ocean moved and took shape of the waves. But even so, the waves are nothing but ocean.

 

Consciousness is consciousness, and it is always the same consciousness and it is pure.

There is nothing specific about consciousness. There is no "Wu Ji-consciousness" or any other subordinated kind of consciousness, no sub-consciousness or any way of getting more or less conscious.

 

Infact when we experience, we never truly know what we experince. The opject of knowles is not in the realm of consciousness. When claiming to be conscious, what we infact do is only to define the concept by which we are observing the impuls in life, that is using thoughts-concepts as a filteringdevice to manifest the experience of life-puls (Wu Ji), only in order to strengthen our identity. The experience it self, has nothing to do with life at all.

 

Wu Ji implies that time can exist with out space and because mind is the creator of time and ego, the "I" is a contest to any given time-experience.

So Wu Ji being one dimensional, pure mind, pure energy, pure consciousness, is providing mind with the only reasonable ability for questioning. Speculation is not an obsion,... yet.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Guest