Western and Chinese Gong Training

[mjjbecker]

It is starting to look like I am some kind of Ellis Amdur 'groupie'...I'm not. He is just one of the most educated, eloquent and experienced writers on matters relating to martial arts around.

 

And his article here really does trump my poor efforts here. Read, enjoy and learn:

 

http://www.ellisamdur.com/article_naturalmovement.html

 

Best,

 

Mike

[mjjbecker]

Yes its a wonderful path very simple yet VERY powerful.

 

I remember Glenn mentioning to me that the sufi's had real "juice".

That is awesome! I sent a nice cloud your way this morning : )

 

Check the skies from time to time You will know in your heart which one it is. : )..Glenn sent a little juice behind one also : P

Thanks Mike you are a both Kind & Wise! Yes London should be great once dates can get locked in.

Peace

 

Santiago

these are great I will read them soon. Thanks!

 

Simple in method, but one requiring great devotion I believe. I understand my friend spends hours every day praying. Of course one must also follow a moral life as well.

 

Simple, but then the great paths are. We just have to let go of our attachments. That is the difficult part.

 

Ah, thank you my brother. I am going out to buy some incense this afternoon. I shall be sure to keep a look out. My heartfelt gratitude to the good doctor also. I just hope he didn't include any lightening in the package .

 

Alas I won't be back in the UK for a visit until December. Another time, another time.

 

Yes, those old pugilists were wise and their tradition was steeped in centuries of practice. Great stuff.

 

Jack Dempsey's method did deviate from the older schools, and I thought about not including it, but the book is the best I have ever seen in regards to an 'instructional manual'. Follow his advice and a person would certainly learn how to punch very hard. A great book and a crying shame it is not in print when you consider the tripe that forests are felled for!

 

Do check out Ellis Amdur's article as well. He puts such things forward far more eloquently and with far more wisdom than I do.

 

Best,

 

Mike

[Vajrasattva]

Simple in method, but one requiring great devotion I believe. I understand my friend spends hours every day praying. Of course one must also follow a moral life as well.

 

 

Depends the system and order etc.

 

I mean real Sufi everything you do is an act of worship towards the Divine.

 

If you learning from a Silat Guru most likely there is more Physical stuff along with the Zikr & breathing.

 

peace

Santi

[三江源]

 

this smile is for you Cat.

 

and this one is for MIKE.

 

Energy sent 2 both of you.

 

aieeeee! I was so happy to find myself singing in the street to my son "zip - a dee- doo - dah, zip - a dee - ay" and 'ooh', I thought, 'what is going on with me, this new energy is grrrreat.'

 

and now I find it was you!!!

 

t h a n k y o u

 

I feel great, very clear and clean and energised. Fantastic, Santi.

 

*wanders off singing and smiling *

[rsalazar]

Hi Mike,

 

Nice to see you back, great thread.

 

I had a chance to briefly study Systema a while back and their punches and movement are impressive - I like the ball-and-chain manner of powering punches, like slaps from a bear or ape - they advocated progressive muscle relaxation exercises (similar to the classic Jacobsen protocol) - I heard some of the higher level guys like Ryabko advised doing things like this as a warm-up before getting out of bed - I also got a brief glimpse at their bodywork, great stuff that could be done standing and basically involved percussion with loose fists (I saw a similar practice at the end of a class with Allen Pittman, a body "reset") - Unfortunately, I had only a cursory exposure and I'm sure there is so much I'm unaware of, but it seems likely that if they take the rudimentary body control involved with constant training of relaxation, this by itself may result in increases with body efficiency, this being only one factor in the overall expression of power - I've also wondered about techniques such as Feldenkrais and their training of a more "intelligent" body with greater kinesthetic capacity, how this might also result in benefits for overall power expression.

 

I hope all is rockin' with you.

Cheers,

Rene'

 

 

London. Me. Here I am at a Systema seminar. I don't really want to go along, but what the hell, its an excuse to visit London and see some friends. One of my friends has trained for some time in this method and is quite well known by the Russians present. Introductions are made, including one gentleman who reputed used to work for the Russian secret service. I don't know about that, but he surely was a formidable individual. I took one of his zero inch 'taps' and it certainly got my attention. It went right through me, and not in a pleasant way. Not like any of your 'normal' strikes.

 

Anyone who has participated in a Systema class or seminar and who has felt their strikes would certainly be a 'believer'. They come from all directions, with no 'wind-up', and they work. They can hit to knock out, incapacitate or resuscitate. Hmm. Just like those stories of old Asian martial arts masters.

 

Just to clarify, non of this feels like the famous 1-3 inch punch of Wing Chun fame, whereby force is generated by torquing the wrist and using the shoulder and lats.

 

Shotokai karate is famous for its 'soft' no tension punch. They say being hit by one of these punches takes everything out of you and makes you want to curl up and die. Not dissimilar to the Systema strikes.

 

Interestingly, while the Russians had power, the other people at the seminar, including people who had done Systema for several years, well, they didn't look too impressive. The impression I got was the Russians had something and they weren't passing it on.

 

Unfortunately the attitude of not passing this knowledge along has been prevalent over the years. So, the mystery of qi, its existence, or not, has been argued over instead.

 

[Vajrasattva]

aieeeee! I was so happy to find myself singing in the street to my son "zip - a dee- doo - dah, zip - a dee - ay" and 'ooh', I thought, 'what is going on with me, this new energy is grrrreat.'

 

and now I find it was you!!!

 

t h a n k y o u

 

I feel great, very clear and clean and energised. Fantastic, Santi.

 

*wanders off singing and smiling *

 

 

Hmm Hmm...Correction

Sister you are welcome. God Bless u : )

Edited October 2, 2008 by Vajrasattva

[mjjbecker]

Hi Mike,

 

Nice to see you back, great thread.

 

I had a chance to briefly study Systema a while back and their punches and movement are impressive - I like the ball-and-chain manner of powering punches, like slaps from a bear or ape - they advocated progressive muscle relaxation exercises (similar to the classic Jacobsen protocol) - I heard some of the higher level guys like Ryabko advised doing things like this as a warm-up before getting out of bed - I also got a brief glimpse at their bodywork, great stuff that could be done standing and basically involved percussion with loose fists (I saw a similar practice at the end of a class with Allen Pittman, a body "reset") - Unfortunately, I had only a cursory exposure and I'm sure there is so much I'm unaware of, but it seems likely that if they take the rudimentary body control involved with constant training of relaxation, this by itself may result in increases with body efficiency, this being only one factor in the overall expression of power - I've also wondered about techniques such as Feldenkrais and their training of a more "intelligent" body with greater kinesthetic capacity, how this might also result in benefits for overall power expression.

 

I hope all is rockin' with you.

Cheers,

Rene'

 

Hello Rene,

 

Thank you very much.

 

The ape analogy is an interesting one. Have you had time to have a look at Ellis Amdur's article yet? Very interesting observations indeed.

 

Russia is a BIG place, so it stands to reason they would have quite a body of martial arts knowledge. It is just pleasing to see Stalin and company did not wipe it all out. Not sure how much of what is being claimed is ancient is in fact of recent vintage. Would make for a fascinating field trip sometime I am sure.

 

There is just SO MUCH interesting stuff out there. I have to reign myself in otherwise I would spend all my time reading and researching it and not enough actually training! As things are I am quite pre-occupied with the Chinese methods I am learning. Otherwise, I would very much like to set up a school of old European methods of combat. Boxing, wrestling, sword, stick, archery...happy thoughts.

 

Best,

 

Mike

[dwai]

As he commented, to howls of outrage by some 'traditionalists', the correct solo training of the body is the difference between getting the remarkable abilities of the top Aiki masters, or not. Not only that, but that this training has been a core part of martial arts from other countries, notably the internal arts of China.

 

Nothing mystical, not qi, but the correct training of the body. Physical exercises that develop a refined body awareness.

 

 

 

Hi Mike,

 

Thanks for an excellent post. I have only one thing to say -- the whole idea that Qi is mystical is a misunderstanding of the phenomenon (imho, since I've probably not practiced as long and hard as most members of this board).

 

 

 

my personal experiences with tai chi leads me to believe that Qi is as real as the air we breath, perhaps being so closely interlinked with our mundane existence, that it is rendered indiscernible.

 

Doing Tai Chi forms, the Qi flows and circulates most definitively through out the meridians. Over a period of time, condensation naturally occurs. I have experienced (rare occasions, but definitely not delusion) physical sensations of being pushed without being touched physically while doing two person practice with my teacher as well as some other senior students of my school.

 

My teacher quotes his teacher saying that Tai Chi ability builds up over a period of time, like building a skyscraper by stacking one sheet of paper over another. It is a slow and laborious process. Some people have it naturally (by virtue of their Karma). Others have to try hard and diligently.

 

I think attempts to extrapolate Qi to modern scientific terms are futile (many have tried and failed miserably). But it is as real and the abilities it produces are also equally real.

[mjjbecker]

I think attempts to extrapolate Qi to modern scientific terms are futile (many have tried and failed miserably). But it is as real and the abilities it produces are also equally real.

 

A good post. Thank you for contributing.

 

Ah, what is, or is not, qi. There is a large area of discussion in itself.

 

Best,

 

Mike

[VCraigP]

A good post. Thank you for contributing.

 

Ah, what is, or is not, qi. There is a large area of discussion in itself.

 

Best,

 

Mike

 

Mike

 

I think your contrubution has great merit.

I also think that Buddy who you may or may not know from earlier Taobums history was actually on to something when he discounted the importance of Chi/Qi. Although I disagree about the approach of dismissing Qi altogether, your post has enabled me to see more clearly that it is easy to get caught up in the concept of Qi, in the perception of Qi and allow it to be a distraction from accomplishing the more prosaic achievements of structure and function of the human organism through rigorous physical training. Such achievements can be viewed from the outside as mystical accomplishments, when in actuality they are merely advanced physical accomplishements.

to paraphrase Heinlein or was it Asimov?...any sufficiently advanced science will appear as magic to the ignorant.

 

Make no mistake, Qi is present here. It is present everywhere and in every endeavor. But before you even need to look to Qi to explain phenemenon there is first the physical layer. This layer can account for much more than is ordinarily given credit. I think this is one of the important points MJ makes in his essay.

 

Too much internet. Not enough physical practice of late.

 

Ciao for now.

 

 

Craig

[mouse]

In our school system, we seldom if ever touch on chi. The main focus is on awareness and intention. Yi leads chi.

 

Without proper intergration of the physical bodies as a foundation in practice, you can't transcend to the stage where form is irrelevant.

 

Good points raised in the tread.

 

Enjoy your practice,

mouse

[Vajrasattva]

In our school system, we seldom if ever touch on chi. The main focus is on awareness and intention. Yi leads chi.

 

Without proper intergration of the physical bodies as a foundation in practice, you can't transcend to the stage where form is irrelevant.

 

Good points raised in the tread.

 

Enjoy your practice,

mouse

 

Mouse this i no way is an attack to you or anyone just insight from the heart after a long session of chi kung tonight.

 

Most schools fail to ever achieve anything cause they end up disregarding "chi" or putting in the back burner too much.....

 

Shakti/Chi etc has a lot to teach and a lot to offer. Being too "rational", "logic", "Method", "Technique" may actually be a trap. Shakti/Chi has been around for billions of millenias of Aeons ..... how long have we been around with our measly and rather small in the grand scheme of things "methods,chi kung practices & Yogas?" etc.....

 

Instead focus "Smile" "simplicty" "principles" & follow the energy.

 

Yes Yi leads Chi but who's Yi? Yours or the Divine's?

 

Real Power comes from Surrendering.

 

Peace & God Bless,

Santiago

Edited October 3, 2008 by Vajrasattva

[mjjbecker]

Mike

 

I think your contrubution has great merit.

I also think that Buddy who you may or may not know from earlier Taobums history was actually on to something when he discounted the importance of Chi/Qi. Although I disagree about the approach of dismissing Qi altogether, your post has enabled me to see more clearly that it is easy to get caught up in the concept of Qi, in the perception of Qi and allow it to be a distraction from accomplishing the more prosaic achievements of structure and function of the human organism through rigorous physical training. Such achievements can be viewed from the outside as mystical accomplishments, when in actuality they are merely advanced physical accomplishements.

to paraphrase Heinlein or was it Asimov?...any sufficiently advanced science will appear as magic to the ignorant.

 

Make no mistake, Qi is present here. It is present everywhere and in every endeavor. But before you even need to look to Qi to explain phenemenon there is first the physical layer. This layer can account for much more than is ordinarily given credit. I think this is one of the important points MJ makes in his essay.

 

Too much internet. Not enough physical practice of late.

 

Ciao for now.

Craig

 

Hello Craig and thank you for your kind words.

 

I've read a few of Buddy's posts and can see where he is coming from. Much of the 'ability' found in the 'internal' arts simply isn't qi, but good body use.

 

Like yourself, too much internet and not enough practice of late, so I am going to give myself a few days away.

 

Best,

 

Mike

[Vajrasattva]

Hello Craig and thank you for your kind words.

 

I've read a few of Buddy's posts and can see where he is coming from. Much of the 'ability' found in the 'internal' arts simply isn't qi, but good body use.

 

Like yourself, too much internet and not enough practice of late, so I am going to give myself a few days away.

 

Best,

 

Mike

 

Good Body use is Good Qi Use : )

[mouse]

Mouse this i no way is an attack to you or anyone just insight from the heart after a long session of chi kung tonight.

 

Most schools fail to ever achieve anything cause they end up disregarding "chi" or putting in the back burner too much.....

 

Shakti/Chi etc has a lot to teach and a lot to offer. Being too "rational", "logic", "Method", "Technique" may actually be a trap. Shakti/Chi has been around for billions of millenias of Aeons ..... how long have we been around with our measly and rather small in the grand scheme of things "methods,chi kung practices & Yogas?" etc.....

 

Instead focus "Smile" "simplicty" "principles" & follow the energy.

 

Yes Yi leads Chi but who's Yi? Yours or the Divine's?

 

Real Power comes from Surrendering.

 

Peace & God Bless,

Santiago

 

Santiago,

 

No offense was taken. I enjoy your posts and understand where you're coming from.

 

On your end, I hope you don't mind me saying that we do not focus on the divine or the creator. In fact, our goal is nibbana. To rid the defilements of the mind. Taiji being a training method for that.

 

We seek refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha and connect to that. In our hearts, there is no higher.

 

We don't seek power, it is an attachment in itself.

 

I really can't speak for anyone else in the school system but I find surrendering counter to my practice. Understanding the nature of the citta requires much concentration and mindfulness.

 

Enjoy your practice,

 

mouse

[Vajrasattva]

Even the Buddha understood surrender. : )

 

Surrender = Extreme Yin which leads to yang

 

Creator = Non Conceptual mind, Dharmakaya, Tao, Allah what ever you want to call it makes no difference.

 

what is Buddha? Dhamma? & Sangha? : )

 

Non Conceptual Self , Service duty, Tribe all which require surrender for oneself to truly understand.

 

Understanding the nature of the citta requires much concentration and mindfulness.

 

Nibbana is also an attachement so surrender that aswell.

The non conceptual mind has no Defilement. So why not have the Yi of the non conceptual mind direct your Chi?

 

Peace & "CHOD"!

 

Santiago

Edited October 3, 2008 by Vajrasattva

[rsalazar]

Hello Rene,

 

Thank you very much.

 

The ape analogy is an interesting one. Have you had time to have a look at Ellis Amdur's article yet? Very interesting observations indeed.

 

Russia is a BIG place, so it stands to reason they would have quite a body of martial arts knowledge. It is just pleasing to see Stalin and company did not wipe it all out. Not sure how much of what is being claimed is ancient is in fact of recent vintage. Would make for a fascinating field trip sometime I am sure.

 

There is just SO MUCH interesting stuff out there. I have to reign myself in otherwise I would spend all my time reading and researching it and not enough actually training! As things are I am quite pre-occupied with the Chinese methods I am learning. Otherwise, I would very much like to set up a school of old European methods of combat. Boxing, wrestling, sword, stick, archery...happy thoughts.

 

Best,

 

Mike

 

Hello Mike,

 

Wow, I just checked out Amdur's article, really eye-opening, thanks for the link and for sharing the other files.

 

Yeah, I totally hear ya on the restraint needed to keep on track, there is so much out there, I've been lost in it so many times when I should have been practicing more .

 

Best,

Rene'

[rsalazar]

If you want to learn the Zikr you would need to learn a few arabic names for the creator.

 

Most of what i do is specialized breathing much like gTummo with special prayers and also specific hand motions (Jurus Jurus).

 

A lot of my Tenaga Dalam & Tenaga Batin training is VERY similar to what I do in KAP & to what I learned in trulkhor except there is heavy emphasis in prayer and Zikr. I do not mind that aspect since it really does make one smoother, humbler, peaceful. And the truth is the ultimate power is found in surrendering to the Divine.

 

This order is of a high caliber and very esoteric. Directly connected to the Wali Songo.

 

Naqshabandi.org

 

This site has some great meditations similar to what I do daily as part of my Internal Silat training

 

http://nurmuhammad.com/

 

Peace

 

Santiago

 

Hello Santiago,

 

Thanks for the link. In your experience, how have you dealt with training under multiple teachers with diverging lineages? For example, would Sufi teachers take offense to training as well with Taoist or Tibetan teachers? Or do they see all learning as good as long as it is done with an open heart? I guess it also depends on the teachers, their temperament and their expectations of you.

 

I may also be confusing the outer aspects of religions with the deeper aspects which are more transcendent.

 

I hope all is rockin' with you.

Peace,

Rene'

[mouse]

Even the Buddha understood surrender. : )

 

Surrender = Extreme Yin which leads to yang

 

Creator = Non Conceptual mind, Dharmakaya, Tao, Allah what ever you want to call it makes no difference.

 

what is Buddha? Dhamma? & Sangha? : )

 

Non Conceptual Self , Service duty, Tribe all which require surrender for oneself to truly understand.

Nibbana is also an attachement so surrender that aswell.

The non conceptual mind has no Defilement. So why not have the Yi of the non conceptual mind direct your Chi?

 

Peace & "CHOD"!

 

Santiago

 

 

Santiago,

 

From what I understand, there is no surrendering for Buddha but a constant fight with Mara at every mind moment in order to reach enlightenment. This is confirmed by the biographies of a couple of Arahants of the process of nibbana.

 

The creator you speak off is not the same as the Tao or Buddha. Creator in the sense of Allah is still a sentient being bounded by samsara. Believe this to be the Buddhist equivalent to Brahma. Brahma is still subject to death and decay.

 

The Brahma-nimantanika Sutta expounds this quite clearly and can be found here.

 

The thing here is that I cannot personally prove the existance of Brahma or Buddha or the Tao. It is not important. The only thing I have verified by myself is the efficacy of the Dhamma (teachings) and the process of mind development through the practices. I cannot speak of any other point definitively as there is no way to verify any phenomena outside of my own heart.

 

Again, power is not something I actively seek. It does come with its own sets of attachments.

 

Seeking nibbana indeed is an attachment in itself. This is very true. However, like my teacher always says, it is an attachment to end all attachments. Going with the flow is counter to our practice. It is the equivalent to giving in to the kilesas (defilements) hold on us at every mind moment. It binds and chains you to samsara.

 

No creator or other sentient being can practice for you. Your own mind development can be guided and shaped but the actions and efforts can only be of your own.

 

Hope this does not offend anyone's right to their own views. This is only for explaining my own stand on surrender which was put forward to me.

 

On another note, if this does not hijack the thread, can you share your own experience with the Creator and your own practice? I am sure it has been of great benefit to you for you to have such faith in it. I am also unfamiliar on Shakti you speak of. Can you define it more?

 

Enjoy your practice,

mouse

[Enishi]

On 9/30/2008 at 11:51 AM, mjjbecker said:

 

In conclusion, much of the abilities displayed by famous internal arts and Aiki masters were gained from practising a series of solo training exercises that developed a refined level of body awareness. This explains why some masters could display seemingly amazing feats, even when seriously ill in their old ages.

 

Such abilities are not about qi powers, though qi can and is developed by some of these training methods. Qi is different, and very few people seem to develop that to the level whereby they can apply it in combat.

 

 

Mike

 

Was doing some past research today and stumbled across this post. Pure gold!

Mostly my experience his been with Qi as per my Stillness-Movement practice. When I've projected energy to my wife she sometimes jumps at bit, and describes it as feeling like a small electric shock. While the electromagnetic field produced by the heart, infrared heat and infrasound may be involved, my current understanding of Qi transfer is that it's primarily a transfer of conscious information. Any energy emitted by the body that can be measured by instruments is just a transfer medium. People jump because their nerves fire.

 

Although the transfer of higher spiritual awareness is lacking, mentalists CAN cause outwardly similar effects with hypnotic techniques. Normally people only get that mild electric effect if there's mutual consent such as when I choose to do therapeutic work on them, which does make it difficult to test in a lab. I'm doubtful it would work to a random unaware person I tried projecting to on the street (it would be unethical anyway).

In terms of Qi and body control, although I've experienced more of the former I do find that the two are synergistic with each other, I recently tried some standing post exercises and found they were easier after having done Qigong for awhile.

Edited May 21, 2017 by Enishi