Don't worry be happy?

[steve]

9 hours ago, oak said:

 

Hi Steve,

Sorry to interfere with your conversation with Bindi but I feel like comenting on what you have written with an example of a dream.

…

 

Just my experience...

Don't think that Bindi is defending that all dreams are untouched by our conditioning but a few in fact seem to be.

 

No need for an apology.

 

4 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

I think the images that are used in dreams are very much based on conditioning and experience, but the plot of dreams is the objective part, I have found that dreams mirror the state of our psyche, subtle body and physical body without our subjective sense of our selves interfering

…

 

I see dreams as an incredible resource, but they come without an operators manual, at this point I think some of us are trying to write that manual. I’ve been at it for forty years so far, and I’ve found it to be a fascinating journey into all the levels of me. 
 

…

The objective reality I’m referring to is this objective mirror, the dream plot is delivered to my conscious mind without interference from my conscious mind. This is the most objective I can be about the nature of my own reality, which is what I’ve chosen to examine. 

 

I very much appreciate both responses. Good stuff here with which to spend some time.

 

🙏🏼

[old3bob]

something for us bums to consider:

 

"...If you do not strive with others,

You will be free from blame."

 

from Chapter 8  T.T.C.  (I'd say Steve has often been setting this example)

Edited 14 hours ago by old3bob

[Bindi]

8 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

My own view is that spiritual planes are more important than the physical.

 

 

 

Just to clarify, the part of a person that can project its image somewhere else is actually the subtle energy body, which could be described as the spirit body. It’s merely the spiritual plane visible to physical eyes. It might not even be possible, it’s just one of the standard tests of spiritual achievement claims. 

 

8 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

 

Each to their own

 

I won't bother you guys again

 

 

 

[Apech]

I have had what I call luminous dreams (which is just a name I give them not a significant claim) where the dreams are especially bright and also stay with you - you don't forget them like ordinary dreams.  They are always very significant and meaningful.  But most of my dreams are just rather confused and full of my own metal stresses and concerns.  The luminous dreams seem to contain messages which last and are guidance for long periods of time.  I've had quite a few pre-cognition dreams where I dream about things which later come true (sometimes many years later).  This proves to me that time is not linear and that all that happens to us is interconnected.

 

I think that to rest one's consciousness in the pristine consciousness itself is quite an achievement in itself.  But as a goal it is limited as it presents as a separate state - so it is prone to abstraction and negation of life and the world.  But it is part of something more complete.  That more complete thing engages both the subtle and physical body - and this is where the 'work' is.  Whether you work through dreams or not, or through meditation and other processes, there is a task to be undertaken.  I think mahamudra and dzogchen do have a fault in that this task is disguised in a lot of talk of resting in the natural state etc.  which is very misleading if not fully understood.

 

I am big fan of Karma Pakshi's three kaya model where you engage with consciousness itself, the subtle body and the physical body to form the svabhaivika kaya - but that's a whole other story.

 

 

[oak]

21 minutes ago, Apech said:

I have had what I call luminous dreams (which is just a name I give them not a significant claim) where the dreams are especially bright and also stay with you - you don't forget them like ordinary dreams.  They are always very significant and meaningful.  But most of my dreams are just rather confused and full of my own metal stresses and concerns.  The luminous dreams seem to contain messages which last and are guidance for long periods of time.  I've had quite a few pre-cognition dreams where I dream about things which later come true (sometimes many years later).  This proves to me that time is not linear and that all that happens to us is interconnected.

 

I think that to rest one's consciousness in the pristine consciousness itself is quite an achievement in itself.  But as a goal it is limited as it presents as a separate state - so it is prone to abstraction and negation of life and the world.  But it is part of something more complete.  That more complete thing engages both the subtle and physical body - and this is where the 'work' is.  Whether you work through dreams or not, or through meditation and other processes, there is a task to be undertaken.  I think mahamudra and dzogchen do have a fault in that this task is disguised in a lot of talk of resting in the natural state etc.  which is very misleading if not fully understood.

 

I am big fan of Karma Pakshi's three kaya model where you engage with consciousness itself, the subtle body and the physical body to form the svabhaivika kaya - but that's a whole other story.

 

 

 

Lovely post. Thank you for the clarity of it and sharing your experience.

You should stop listening to metal if it stresses you.

[Bindi]

27 minutes ago, Apech said:

I have had what I call luminous dreams (which is just a name I give them not a significant claim) where the dreams are especially bright and also stay with you - you don't forget them like ordinary dreams.  They are always very significant and meaningful.  But most of my dreams are just rather confused and full of my own metal stresses and concerns.  The luminous dreams seem to contain messages which last and are guidance for long periods of time.  I've had quite a few pre-cognition dreams where I dream about things which later come true (sometimes many years later).  This proves to me that time is not linear and that all that happens to us is interconnected.

 

 

I have an idea that sometimes what can seem precognitive might actually be karmic moments that are bound to happen as part of working out karma. 
 

27 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I think that to rest one's consciousness in the pristine consciousness itself is quite an achievement in itself.  But as a goal it is limited as it presents as a separate state - so it is prone to abstraction and negation of life and the world.  But it is part of something more complete.  That more complete thing engages both the subtle and physical body - and this is where the 'work' is.  Whether you work through dreams or not, or through meditation and other processes, there is a task to be undertaken.  I think mahamudra and dzogchen do have a fault in that this task is disguised in a lot of talk of resting in the natural state etc.  which is very misleading if not fully understood.

 

I am big fan of Karma Pakshi's three kaya model where you engage with consciousness itself, the subtle body and the physical body to form the svabhaivika kaya - but that's a whole other story.

 

 

 

[Apech]

51 minutes ago, oak said:

 

Lovely post. Thank you for the clarity of it and sharing your experience.

You should stop listening to metal if it stresses you.

Ah! Yes I meant mental of course lol

[oak]

6 minutes ago, Apech said:

Ah! Yes I meant mental of course lol

No big problem having a Freudian slip.

Big Motörhead fan myself.

[oak]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 

I have an idea that sometimes what can seem precognitive might actually be karmic moments that are bound to happen as part of working out karma. 
 

 

 

Some without a doubt are. Others are dreams with deep meaning that over the years keep unfolding new revelations and understanding.

[stirling]

46 minutes ago, Bindi said:

if you’re told that spaciousness and stillness is what we should be looking for, and you find spaciousness and stillness, then you can think you have arrived at what you believe to be the destination.

 

The collapse of the reality of a "self", the collapse of the experience of "space", and time end the quest. What if you knew based on your experience RIGHT NOW, that this was the only place/time you could be in? It isn't about beliefs - beliefs are what we construct when we don't gnow through gnosis. Gnosis is this-moment experience of the deeper reality, not an abstraction, a constructed theory. It is permanent because it can always be seen, and is the pervasive quality of reality. There is no arriving, or destination. They are understood to be fictions.

 

46 minutes ago, Bindi said:

But what if this as a destination is more like a model of consciousness, and as with all models they fray at the edges, and new comprehension of consciousness dawns. You believe your achievement is absolute, but it might be as primitive one day as the belief that rain gods needed to be sacrificed to to cause rain. You are working within the model you believe in, but in the future that model might have advanced significantly. 

 

That's the thing - there is (famously) no way to really conceptualize it. Even the best models (Nagarjuna, for example) of what it is are wrong. The moment they use the subject/object structure of language they are instantly wrong. There is no "this happens to this" story about the nature of it that can explicate it. It isn't "my" model, it is just "here", omnipresent. No model can supplant it. 

 

46 minutes ago, Bindi said:

From my perspective your model is incomplete because it doesn’t create flow in the subtle nadi’s, ie. the side channels and the central channel, it doesn’t activate chakras, it doesn’t build dantians, it seems mind based as opposed to subtle body based. 

 

I remember yes. But, are your nadi's, channels, chakras, or dantians things you can touch or see or show someone else, or are the conceptual - another story about how things work?

[steve]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

I think that to rest one's consciousness in the pristine consciousness itself is quite an achievement in itself.  But as a goal it is limited as it presents as a separate state - so it is prone to abstraction and negation of life and the world.

 

Agreed, one mistake is to take it as a goal, per se, another to consider it a separate state. While it is a valuable skill to cultivate, once there is some level of success and stability it should no longer be treated as  final goal. It is more of a tool. The goal becomes total integration in all states of human experience. For sure the method is prone to abstraction and disconnection. This is why expert guidance and a close relationship with a lineage and teacher are so important. 

 

4 hours ago, Apech said:

That more complete thing engages both the subtle and physical body - and this is where the 'work' is. 

 

I very much agree. The work must address everything in human experience, from the coarsest to the most subtle. There is work at each level. In the dzogchen tradition I follow, every formal practice session includes elements from sutra, tantra, and dzogchen. At a minimum prayers, energetic cleansing, and guru yoga. In life, one must attend to the physical body, the subtle body, and mind's nature.

 

4 hours ago, Apech said:

I think mahamudra and dzogchen do have a fault in that this task is disguised in a lot of talk of resting in the natural state etc.  which is very misleading if not fully understood.

 

I think it is a mistake to fault mahamudra or dzogchen, per se. The fault lies with the teacher and/or the practitioner. That is where misleading and misunderstanding occur. In these vehicles, there is a common tendency to conflate the practitioner with the inherent perfection of the primordially pure essence. It is not surprising, given that this is the very essence of the practitioner herself.

 

It is my contention that in the living being, there is never complete and perfect union with / resting in pristine consciousness. Any experience we have of "that" is actually an experience of the release of an obstacle that was previously limiting our openness, our spaciousness, our warmth in some way. This is in part because in life we are always limited by our human form and in part because what we are pointing to in these teachings is not "a state" of any sort in the way we can envision what that means. We remain human and it is the human mind that experiences and recollects the release of limitations as some special state. That in and of itself is a bit of an error.

 

Yes, there can be a lot of talk, particularly by anonymous folks online and in teaching sessions especially when beginner and intermediate practitioners are involved, but the talk and study are released and become less interesting as the path is understood. There was a time when I couldn't get enough of reading and listening to the teachings. I would read before, during, and after work, and on the weekends. I would listen to recordings whenever driving. Now these rarely hold my attention any longer. It is the resting and the integration that are most fascinating and engaging for the most part.

 

 

Edited 14 hours ago by steve

[old3bob]

 

the ways or teachings of renunciates are often being quoted at this site but a householder/family person can not rightly be a renunciate and also fulfill their householder dharma at the same time....In many/most Hindu traditions when a householder has fulfilled that dharma then they can transition to being a renunciate,  whereas some become vowed renunciates/monks or nuns of an order at a very early age.  What problems have you seen along such lines?  

 

[old3bob]

 

"...We remain human and it is the human mind that experiences and recollects the release of limitations as some special state. That in and of itself is a bit of an error."  Steve

 

There is a lot packed into your sentence above! (and the related post)  Is there an 'if' in part of it?  My interpretation along that line would say that the traced memory of "it" is not "it".  (but that pointers/maps/signposts can surely help) 

Edited 11 hours ago by old3bob

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

 

The collapse of the reality of a "self", the collapse of the experience of "space", and time end the quest. What if you knew based on your experience RIGHT NOW, that this was the only place/time you could be in? It isn't about beliefs - beliefs are what we construct when we don't gnow through gnosis. Gnosis is this-moment experience of the deeper reality, not an abstraction, a constructed theory. It is permanent because it can always be seen, and is the pervasive quality of reality. There is no arriving, or destination. They are understood to be fictions.

 

 

That's the thing - there is (famously) no way to really conceptualize it. Even the best models (Nagarjuna, for example) of what it is are wrong. The moment they use the subject/object structure of language they are instantly wrong. There is no "this happens to this" story about the nature of it that can explicate it. It isn't "my" model, it is just "here", omnipresent. No model can supplant it. 

 

 

I remember yes. But, are your nadi's, channels, chakras, or dantians things you can touch or see or show someone else, or are the conceptual - another story about how things work?

 

just a side note:  there is the Zen story of a person who had little training yet upon hearing a wise concept/saying he suddenly got "it"!   Maybe Mark or anyone else could fill us in on that? 

 

 

 

Edited 12 hours ago by old3bob

[steve]

The synchronicity of the DaoBums provides... a brief description of working with the tsa, lung, and thigles in the Bön tradition, recently posted on FB by a young practitioner from Menri monastery in Himachal Pradesh for any curious - 

 

Spoiler

In the Embrace of Fire and Wind: A Reflection on the 106 Day Tsalung Retreat

As I sit here now, the intense rigor of the past few months settling into a quiet inner warmth, my heart is filled with a profound sense of gratitude. From October 29, 2025, to February 8, 2026, I had the incredible karma to withdraw from the ordinary world and enter the Shen gyi Sang-ngak Gom-drup Ling (Shen’s Secret Mantra Meditation Center) at our glorious Pal Shenten Menri Ling.

Together with my dharma brothers, under the close guidance of our retreat master, Gen Geshe Yungdrung Yonten, we undertook the 106 day Tsalung (Channels and Winds) retreat.

The Foundation

As the great master Sumden Yormeba taught, "Before entering the practice of virtue, one must recite the scriptures, make offerings, receive initiations, and accumulate merit in every possible way." Following this essential advice, we did not rush. We began by performing the Tsog offering of the Lama Gonpo Yermed (Inseparability of the Lama and Protector) and the Inner Guru Yoga of the Unrivaled Lord (Nyammed Sherab Gyaltsen). Only with this spiritual foundation laid did we embark on the actual path of the winds.

The Daily Discipline

For one hundred and six days, our lives were governed by the rhythm of the breath and the discipline of the body. We moved through the stages of the "Gentle Wind" (Jam Lung), the "Intermediate Wind" (Bar Lung), and the "Fierce Wind" (Drak Lung).

Every day was divided into four sessions (Thun). It was physically demanding. We practiced the three preliminary isolations, erected the protective tent of the mind, and purified the poisonous winds. We worked tirelessly to bless our channels and chakras, holding the strict physical postures and visualizing the channels with unwavering focus. We performed the 80 magical movements (Trul Khor) of the A-Tri and Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyu lineages until our bodies became pliable vessels for the wisdom wind.

Moments of Blessing

A memory I will cherish forever occurred on the final day of our "Intermediate Wind" practice. We were blessed by the presence of His Holiness the Menri Trizin Rinpoche and His Eminence the Menri Ponlob Rinpoche. To demonstrate the Trul Khor movements before our root masters was nerve-wracking, but their compassionate gaze gave us new strength to continue.

The Test of Inner Fire

The culmination of our journey came on February 7, 2026. In the pre-dawn darkness, after holding the breath 108 times and completing the Nyen Gyu Trul Khor, we stepped out into the biting cold in front of the Meditation Center.

At 5:30 AM, in the presence of His Holiness The 34th Menri Trizin Rinpoche, His Eminence Menri Ponlob Rinpoche, and the assembly of monks, we offered the sign of our practice: Tummo (Inner Heat). Following the texts, we dipped sheets into water that had been consecrated for 100 days. Wrapped in these cold, wet sheets, I turned my mind inward to the fire at the naval chakra. Slowly, steam began to rise. Drying those sheets three times was not just a physical feat; it was the external proof of the internal warmth of the teaching.

Looking Forward

On the morning of February 8th, after a final session of "Gentle Wind" and archery-style Trul Khor, we concluded the retreat with a thanksgiving offering and the opening of the retreat doors.

Though the 100 days are over, the practice does not end. We are now immediately transitioning into the practice of Chudlen (Essence Extraction), nourishing ourselves on the "essence of liberation" as taught in the texts.

Having completed 100,000 recitations of the Lama Gonpo Yermed mantra, and having spent every morning reciting the Ma Gyu lineage prayers and every evening offering our bodies in generosity (Lu Jin), I feel a transformation. My body feels lighter, but my devotion feels heavier—anchored deeply in the blessings of the Lineage.

 

[Cobie]

.

Edited 9 hours ago by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

21 hours ago, Bindi said:

… From my perspective your model is incomplete because it doesn’t create flow in the subtle nadi’s, ie. the side channels and the central channel, it doesn’t activate chakras, it doesn’t build dantians …

There are loads of “models”/traditions/Ways. Imo not useful to judge other models with the ‘tools’ of your own model.

 

 

 

Edited 8 hours ago by Cobie

[Cobie]

One cannot have a sensible discussion with someone from another Way, as long as either is locked up inside their own Way.

 

 

Edited 8 hours ago by Cobie

[Cobie]

Only after a certain level of cultivation has been reached on one’s own Way, it transcends and other Ways become understandable.

 

 

Edited 8 hours ago by Cobie

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, Apech said:

I have had what I call luminous dreams (which is just a name I give them not a significant claim) where the dreams are especially bright and also stay with you - you don't forget them like ordinary dreams.  They are always very significant and meaningful.  But most of my dreams are just rather confused and full of my own metal stresses and concerns.  The luminous dreams seem to contain messages which last and are guidance for long periods of time.  I've had quite a few pre-cognition dreams where I dream about things which later come true (sometimes many years later).  This proves to me that time is not linear and that all that happens to us is interconnected.

...

 

My take on this is, first there are different types of dreams ; what you call the luminous dream ( great name ) seems the 'highest' . I have had them and a friend described one well to me ; it had a certain quality of light , she felt transformed afterwards . It was about her going out into the garden and seeing a peacock there , in full display , colors , light, and other qualities .... I put her onto the 'Peacock Angel '

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawûsî_Melek

 

I think they are communications with  our  'higher aspects' / tutelary spirits / Guardian Angel / 'Super-consciousness' .  Normally when awake, they most often communicate subtly  into the unconscious and we get communication to the consciousness via symbolism . When we are asleep and this is happening  .. and we are getting a significant 'download' we have a 'luminous dream ' . 

 

The opposite 'lower forces ' give us the opposite type of dreams , as you describe ; like lower 'astral'  all sorts of gumbo-jumbo mixed up together and flash backs .   Then there is another type that you describe , where 'non-local' aspects of consciousness come into play . 

 

DR Wilson Van Dusen ( the 'Evidence of spirits in madness '  guy  , the one that worked in the psychiatric institution and di clinical trial on this ) when talking about patients 'hallucinations ' / ' possessing spirits '  observed  and noted the good qualities of the 'higher hallucinations'  (although rarer )  and the same with the 'lower order hallucinations '  and also noted ; 

 

'' The higher ones seem more like Jung's 'Archetypes' , while the lower ones seem more like Freud's 'Id ' .

[Apech]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

.

I dreamed you were going to delete that.

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, oak said:

 

Some without a doubt are. Others are dreams with deep meaning that over the years keep unfolding new revelations and understanding.

 

Or sometimes they are ....  ( my silly fav dream )  ;

 

I am riding my old Triumph motorcycle , I make a turn and suddenly  I am in the street I used to have to walk down to get from the train station to my old school . But now there are deck chairs all over the road and women in bikinis sun baking on them . I realize they are the nurses I used to work with when I worked in the hospital , Slowly weaving in and out  of them I loose control and drop the motorcycle . It splits open  from end to end and is hollow in the middle  with lugs on one side and holes in the other - just like those airfix model planes I used to make as a kid . I am standing there looking at it confused ... my mother comes out from one of the flats and yells at me . 

 

  

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, Apech said:

Ah! Yes I meant mental of course lol

 

?  You like mental music do you ? 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCXqZGBuk9A

[old3bob]

 

oh heck - I used to have a lot flying, swimming and surfing dreams that were far out!  The flying ones started out with short jumps which I extended in my dreams to longer and longer jumps which then turned into flying, and as long as I had a fair amount of energy I didn't have to land or sometimes end up crashing into the ground.  Alas, after being a blue collar working stiff for decades I've been having a lot dreams of my old job and fellow workers.   (btw, the being late to work ones are stressful since the company could fire people for that, but I'm relieved when I wake and remember that I'm retired ) 

 

Edited 7 hours ago by old3bob

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

Only after a certain level of cultivation has been reached on one’s own Way, it transcends and other Ways become understandable.

 

 

 

meaning finding parallels with other ways?