Chapter One of the TTC

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

isnt that a self-referential loop though ?     In nature animals kill each other all the time .   How do you think carnivore animals eat ?  Do you think wu wei requires them to become vego ?   Sorry, but thats nuts ! 

 

The reality is (another self referential loop )   that part of nature is to modify nature .  Even as simple as a bird building a nest ; thats a modification . 

First of all,  I knew something like that will be coming from you! 

Let me cover myself with some preliminary philosophical back ups. I am strictly going by the book of the TTC.
In a human environment, anything that is uncontrollable by human is Nature. 

Since I have my S covered, now, I can speak freely. The bird building a nest that is nature. I have no control of it. I have no intention to remove the nest or destroy it. It is because of Wu Wei. If I become naughty, and disturb the bird or remove its nest, then I would be accused of being not Wu Wei. It is because I had interrupt the course of Nature.

 

To you, the building a bird nest may be a modification to Nature. However, to a Taoist, it is only the course of Nature. The bird needs a place to live by building a nest on a tree is completely natural! Don't you think?

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

At the other end of the scale , I will give a local example ; people hear often marvel at the indigenous and how they suppose they lived without  harming the ecological balance ... well, that was all geared towards human survival ( in the long term ) .

 

It went something like this ; Australia had mega fauna  , they ate the low lying scrub and kept the land clear between the trees and forests .  people came for the first time , and not knowing what they were , these animals did not flee  ; easy hunting .  Then the megafauna numbers decreased , causing  the 'scrub' to grow and the land hard to navigate and hunt in . So they started burning it , a practice that eventually changed the whole environment , large scale . Now we say the indigenous know how to manage the environment by doing 'slow burns' to mitigate bushfires , and in the past , to make 'unfenced kangaroo farms ' . 

 

Which parts were wu wei, and which parts were not  ?  

By the definition of Wu Wei, any human intervention to Nature is not Wu Wei. BTW There is a term for the opposite of Wu Wei is You Wei(有為).

Edited Friday at 11:19 PM by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

Then define  'harm to nature ' 

Do you eat carrots ,  bok choy ...... wheat ?  ... intentionally ?   

Yes, Nature do provide me with foods to eat. Perhaps to eat is not intentionally. I don't eat when I am not hungry. When I am hungry, I feed myself is because it is a natural thing for me to do. If I don't feed myself and resulted in death, then I am violated the law of Nature.

If it is because you are making that statement about eating carrot and  bok choy signifying that I should not eat in violating the conscpt of Wu Wei. Then, you are too is because have an intention of some kind.

Let me give you a good example for the violation of Wu Wei.
There is this couple desperately wanted their son to be a doctor. Sadly, the son wants to be an artist. It was just because the son wanted to please the parents. So, he spent few miserable years to get a medical degree. As soon, he got his degree and handed over to the parents. The next day, he committed suicide. The result was that the parents did not let nature take its course on its own and caused the tragedy.  Sorry to say,  I am related to the family.

Edited Saturday at 12:34 AM by ChiDragon

[steve]

5 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Effortless action, to me, it sounds that the outcome could be positive or negative. It may cause harm or beneficial from the result of the action. Apparently, the definition is definitely did not match the TTC definition of Wu Wei. I don't think that I can find a chapter in the TDC to substantiate this definition. 

 

Dao treats us like straw dogs, no?

Positive or negative is a human judgement, Dao does not play favorites.

[ChiDragon]

31 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Dao treats us like straw dogs, no?

Positive or negative is a human judgement, Dao does not play favorites.

Chapter 5

3.聖人不仁，
4.以百姓為芻狗。

3. Sages have no mercy,
4. Treating people as straw dogs.

The straw dogs were used in ritual ceremonies. They will become not useful after the ceremony. Then, they will be stashed way in a dirty storage. It become useful again for the next ritual ceremony.

The sage, actually, means ruler. Straw dogs is just a figure of speech. It is only simply suggesting the higher authority should be impartial to handle all matters regardless.
 

Edited Saturday at 01:37 AM by ChiDragon

[steve]

If you trust wu wei as a principle, you must let it happen. The more you is there, the less it happens. I am a straw dog, and will be stashed away between performances, Dao continues to flow.

Feel the Dao in every moment. I trust this moment more than I trust what I think about it.

[steve]

3 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

I am related to the family.

My heartfelt condolences!

I pray for healing for your family.
And for your dear young doctor.

 

 

I apologize for the order of my replies, I often reply from latest to earlier… 

🙏🏼

Edited Saturday at 04:16 AM by steve

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

First of all,  I knew something like that will be coming from you! 

Let me cover myself with some preliminary philosophical back ups. I am strictly going by the book of the TTC.
In a human environment, anything that is uncontrollable by human is Nature. 

 

The TTC says that to you ?  

 

5 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Since I have my S covered, now, I can speak freely. The bird building a nest that is nature. I have no control of it. I have no intention to remove the nest or destroy it. It is because of Wu Wei. If I become naughty, and disturb the bird or remove its nest, then I would be accused of being not Wu Wei. It is because I had interrupt the course of Nature.

 

To you, the building a bird nest may be a modification to Nature. However, to a Taoist, it is only the course of Nature. The bird needs a place to live by building a nest on a tree is completely natural! Don't you think?

 

 

Well, it is now !  Since you seem to have decided all human  'control' is against nature .  

 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

By the definition of Wu Wei, any human intervention to Nature is not Wu Wei. BTW There is a term for the opposite of Wu Wei is You Wei(有為).

 

nah ... when I wee it is completely natural . 

 

So...  for a human to be in a state of wu wei ......  looks like they can not do anything at all .... even breathing effects nature  ... ask a Jain ;

 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes, Nature do provide me with foods to eat. Perhaps to eat is not intentionally. I don't eat when I am not hungry. When I am hungry, I feed myself is because it is a natural thing for me to do. If I don't feed myself and resulted in death, then I am violated the law of Nature.

 

Now you have just wiped out your previous statement .

 

4 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

If it is because you are making that statement about eating carrot and  bok choy signifying that I should not eat in violating the conscpt of Wu Wei. Then, you are too is because have an intention of some kind.

 

I am actually just taking what you are saying .... and extending those ideas into actions ... but maybe you think any action is against wi wei ? 

 

4 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Let me give you a good example for the violation of Wu Wei.
There is this couple desperately wanted their son to be a doctor. Sadly, the son wants to be an artist. It was just because the son wanted to please the parents. So, he spent few miserable years to get a medical degree. As soon, he got his degree and handed over to the parents. The next day, he committed suicide. The result was that the parents did not let nature take its course on its own and caused the tragedy.  Sorry to say,  I am related to the family.

 

he didnt follow hos own nature   then ....  the expression of one's true nature , the khvarenah or True Will .  

 

But now you have skipped into human affairs , and human affairs involve eating things that were once living .  To refuse to do that is against the nature of all life ; to survive . 

[ChiDragon]

15 hours ago, Nungali said:

20 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

 

 

The TTC says that to you ?  

 

Can you control the rain? Can you extinguish the sun? Can stop the tiger from running towards you? Can you stop a spider building a web? Can you move a mountain? Can you stop gravity? Can you... and....?

 

Do I need to read a book to tell me that? I grok it.

Edited Saturday at 07:46 PM by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

he didnt follow hos own nature   then ....  the expression of one's true nature , the khvarenah or True Will .  

 

There was a second party intervention that cannot be ignored. 

[SodaChanh]

Does Wu not mean non-being or emptiness? 

 

Then acting from emptiness = Wu Wei is the most accurate translation. 

 

Means acting without self-interest. 

 

Doing means when self is active and doing things with intention to reach a goal. 

 

Nature as spoken of here is your True Nature, The Golden Elixir as named in some Taoist texts. 

 

All we are doing here is going back to that nature by whatever practice we deem necessary. Some people overlook it because it is invisible, non-tangible and might appear mundane. 

It is the opposite of passion, excitement and entertainment for the mind. 

 

The seeking for it is the impulse coming from itself. Listen to this voice. See where it is coming from. 

[Cobie]

.

Edited yesterday at 12:13 AM by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

On 31/12/2025 at 12:26 AM, steve said:

Is it often that the same character is used twice in a line having different meanings? 

Quote  \/  doesn’t say “twice in one line”, and I haven’t read the article. Still, I thought you might find it interesting.

 

“A thorough study of polysemy is an important prerequisite for the translation of Tao Te Ching to convey its essence well. Therefore, the article screened the polysemy in Tao Te Ching and found many words and phrases have more than one meaning.” (A Study of Polysemy and Multi-translation in Tao Te Ching, by Yan Wang,

 

 https://www.atlantis-press.com/proceedings/iccessh-19/125912010 )

 

 

Edited Saturday at 07:25 PM by Cobie

[Nungali]

14 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

 

Can you control the rain?

 

Again ... what do you mean ?    I can wu wei my water supply by diverting the run off  that comes from the rain  and following the contour down to my water tank . OR I could be 'un natural' and burn fossil fuel and start a water pump and pump it up hill against gravity . 

 

I can control how the rain hits the ground , or me ,  or stop it doing those things ; in these actions I can apply wu wei ( least interference )  or 'go against the 'nature of things '  and do it the hard way .

 

14 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

 

Can you extinguish the sun?

 

I can build a roof or put up a sunshade . 

 

here we are having a demonstration of why you cant understand what I am saying .  

 

I never suggested such 'magical ' or un natural operations in the first place .   I am suggesting wu wei is a way of action ... when we need to act . Not non action  at all ... which you seem to think it is . 

 

 

14 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

 

 

Can stop the tiger from running towards you? Can you stop a spider building a web?

 

Dude !  Thats a bad example .   I live in a cabin on the edge of a forest .... I have been slacking off and not cleaning for ages .... and now you ask me about spider webs    and if I can stop a spider  building a web  ?

 

Answer ... I can , I just been slack      

 

 

14 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Can you move a mountain? Can you stop gravity? Can you... and....?

 

Do I need to read a book to tell me that? I grok it.

 

 

You are groking things that you yourself are supposing .... but you are not grokking what I am saying . 

 

and I venture to suppose .... I am not the only person here having this 'communication problem' with you .

[Nungali]

14 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

 

There was a second party intervention that cannot be ignored. 

 

of course .  We should not interfere with another's True Will , especially a parent, as the child develops , they should be nurtured spiritually as well as physically, emotionally and mentally  . 

 

Sometimes it is hard for some to follow their True Will , it might mean breaking away from the family , peers , other's expectations , etc . 

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

 

This almost happened to me. 

 

 

This to me sounds extremely callous 

 

 

 

Yes, it probably does to some . Although I acknowledge the tragedy involved .  You can put it down to my personal experience  ;  observing the many issues , including suicide , that I have seen result from this type of thing . 

 

I am pretty callous about suffering as well ;  most of it ... that probably comes from past experience working with refugees  and ex- torture victims . 

[ChiDragon]

4 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Again ... what do you mean ?    I can wu wei my water supply by diverting the run off  that comes from the rain  and following the contour down to my water tank . OR I could be 'un natural' and burn fossil fuel and start a water pump and pump it up hill against gravity .

You are not controlling the rain  falling from the sky. You are only controlling the water on the ground. If you are falling from a building, can you reverse the falling and go back up the building?

[ChiDragon]

6 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

of course .  We should not interfere with another's True Will , especially a parent, as the child develops , they should be nurtured spiritually as well as physically, emotionally and mentally  . 

 

Sometimes it is hard for some to follow their True Will , it might mean breaking away from the family , peers , other's expectations , etc . 

 

That would be the effect from the intervention. It could be prevented by not having an intend to manipulate someone. 

[Nungali]

3 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

You are not controlling the rain  falling from the sky. You are only controlling the water on the ground. If you are falling from a building, can you reverse the falling and go back up the building?

 

The answer is the same , no matter how you try to re phrase or pose the question .   see my answer above . 

[Nungali]

1 minute ago, ChiDragon said:

 

That would be the effect from the intervention. It could be prevented by not having an intend to manipulate someone. 

 

I also said that above .   It would be prevented by not having that intention .... and this is one of the reasons why I keep explaining this principle ..... all over the place . 

 

Do not interfere with another's  True Will . 

 

 

[Nungali]

You say it yourself here  ; 

 

 

10.道生之，
11.德畜之。
12.長之育之。
13.亭之毒之。
14.養之覆之。
15.生而不有，
16.為而不恃，
17.長而不宰。
18.是謂玄德。
10. Tao engenders it,
11. Te rears it.
12. Grow it and nourish it,
13. Let it grow to maturity,
14. To foster it and protect it.
15. Engenders it but not possess it.
16. For it but not restraining it,
17. Raise it but not controlling it,
18. It was called divine virtue.

 

Line 15 and 17 explain my viewpoint  and I take them as advice on how to act .... not advice about non action . 

 

line 15-17  also describe actions  and the 'way' to act . 

[ChiDragon]

50 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

I also said that above .   It would be prevented by not having that intention .... and this is one of the reasons why I keep explaining this principle ..... all over the place . 

 

Do not interfere with another's  True Will . 

 

 

That is the principle of Wu Wei. If it was understood in the first place, then why are we still going back and forth about it?

Edited Saturday at 10:05 PM by ChiDragon

[Nungali]

1 minute ago, ChiDragon said:

That is the principle of Wu Wei. If it was understood in the first place, then why are we still going back and forth about?

 

You need to ask yourself that ... very early on you seemed to be asking me,  if your perception that I understood it ,  was right , and I replied yes . 

 

But then you kept trying to find holes in what I was saying  and then coming up with a lot of  strange and unusual  and self conflicting responses .  I cite the responses others gave you as this just not being my subjective opinion . 

 

it seems an ongoing thing with you Mr.  Dragon