Chapter One of the TTC

[Apech]

I would suggest some meditation on what it actually means before translating.  For instance why is the invisible that which produces heaven and earth.  What is heaven, what earth and so on.  Otherwise you are working in the dark so to speak.

[Nintendao]

Bah, there’s already a hundred “illuminated translations” out there. Going forward I am happy to represent the quale grokker community.

Edited 7 hours ago by Nintendao

[Cobie]

It can be difficult to find an English word that means the same as the character and also is as concise as characters are. When English is not the first language, it ican be hard to know if a word one finds in the dictionary is actually well known enough. So I totally understand CD’s reluctance to give up on the quale grokking. But it is incomprehensible. Grok your quale ???   Ah … it’s a typo!    It’s ’fock you quail’. 

 

 

 

 

Edited 5 hours ago by Cobie

[Apech]

58 minutes ago, Cobie said:

It can be difficult to find an English word that means the same as the character and also is as concise as characters are. When English is not the first language, it ican be hard to know if a word one finds in the dictionary is actually well known enough. So I totally understand CD’s reluctance to give up on the quale grokking. But it is incomprehensible. Grok your quale ???   Ah … it’s a typo!    It’s ’fock you quail’. 

 

 

 

 

 To most people it would be incomprehensible 

[ChiDragon]

Something new that one understand. Why not learn it and add them into your memory? Why run away from it? A translation must be done as close as possible. It should not be done to please everyone. I am not making a book for sale. 

 

BTW The cultivation of mind is to increase and obtain more knowledge. Learn to accept things as they are rather than change them and move forward. There are lot of new things are coming in the future. Are we going to avoid them? Don't you think we should have some mental updates to do?

Edited 4 hours ago by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

6 hours ago, Apech said:

I would suggest some meditation on what it actually means before translating.  For instance why is the invisible that which produces heaven and earth.  What is heaven, what earth and so on.  Otherwise you are working in the dark so to speak.

 

People should understand the whole book before do the translation. You don't just jump into one chapter and translate each character. I would link all thoughts of all the chapters in my meditation! Thank you for your suggestion! Peace!

Edited 4 hours ago by ChiDragon

[Apech]

17 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 

People should understand the whole book before do the translation. You don't just jump into one chapter and translate each character. I would link all thoughts of all the chapters in my meditation! Thank you for your suggestion! Peace!

 What is heaven and what is earth then?

[ChiDragon]

12 minutes ago, Apech said:

 What is heaven and what is earth then?

天 is sky not heaven. 地 is earth. 

 

PS What is the TTC all about?

Edited 3 hours ago by ChiDragon

[steve]

50 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Something new that one understand. Why not learn it and add them into your memory? Why run away from it? A translation must be done as close as possible. It should not be done to please everyone. I am not making a book for sale. 

 

 

One reason is that if I am trying to understand something translated from a different language, it does not help to use words that are never used in my own language and that I don't understand. Asking me to learn new words to translate foreign words and concepts compounds the difficulty.

 

Just as I value your native understanding of the Chinese language and culture, ChiDragon, perhaps there is some value for you in the opinions of native English speakers?

But at the end of the day, your translation - your choice.

Do you grok my quale?

 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by steve

[steve]

11 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

天 is sky not heaven. 地 is earth. 

 

How would you translate 天子 or 天师?

How about words like 天命, 天問, or 天地?

Or words like 理天, 氣天, and 象天 from 一贯道 (Yiguandao)?

 

[ChiDragon]

19 minutes ago, steve said:

Do you grok my quale?

 

Yes, I grok your quale. I see that you learn fast in using the words. To tell you the truth, these English translations had missed the whole point of what TTC was advocating. The first time I saw the term 無为(Wu Wei), the translation was "non-action", "non-doing." The interpretation was do nothing to accomplish something. I saw the English speakers accepted it for granted. Even the natives didn't understand the term and thought do nothing was correct. I had done an investigation to find out the actual meaning of Wu Wei means "let nature take its course, do not interrupt the course of nature."

Edited 3 hours ago by ChiDragon

[steve]

20 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes, I grok your quale. I see that you learn fast in using the words. To tell you the truth, these English translations had missed the whole point of what TTC was advocating. The first time I saw the term 無为(Wu Wei), the translation was "non-action", "non-doing." The interpretation was do nothing to accomplish something. I saw the English speakers accepted it for granted. Even the natives didn't understand the term and thought do nothing was correct. I had done an investigation to find out the actual meaning of Wu Wei means "let nature take its course, do not interrupt the course of nature."

 

Yes, the meaning of 無为 is elusive. 

It is undefined, except in principle. 

I challenge you to find a meaning or translation that everyone will agree is perfect and correct.

Meaning is in the reader, not in the text. It is in what the text makes us feel and think of based on our knowledge and conditioning.

 

Even the greatest master's understanding cannot help me at all.

I need to try my best to understand in a way that makes sense to me.

I then need to put that understanding into action and see what happens,

 

What does it mean to let nature take its course?

Am I a part of that nature?

If not, what am I?

What is nature exactly?

 

We all have different understanding and we manifest that understaning differently through our actions.

Then there is the translation and how that can interfere or assist.

The exact words in a translation are not that important.

The way people relate to the word choice does matter.

 

I've been enjoying Ursula LeGuin's translation lately, really beautiful.

 

I love her first line.

 

 

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, steve said:

 

I appreciate your effort but this is not an example of the same character used in the same line twice with different meanings.

 

I am glad it just isn't me that seems to have trouble getting consistence ( at times even sense )  out of CD . 

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Apech said:

I would suggest some meditation on what it actually means before translating.  For instance why is the invisible that which produces heaven and earth.  What is heaven, what earth and so on.  Otherwise you are working in the dark so to speak.

 

My take  ( at the moment     ... which may change 'as I go along ' )  is ;    Heaven and Earth ' signify the primal 'division' from the one - 

giving us the three .  These three ( the one itself and its expression in  2 ) are  like the supernal  triad and above the 'abyss' (of comprehension ) - hence 'invisible ' . 

 

3. Invisible, was a name given to Tao at the origin of sky and earth.

 

But after that , below the abyss , in to manifestation  ( of the 10,000 things )  we can see in nature this 'signature '  ( TTC  Ch 42,  line  5 )

4. Visible, was a name given to Tao as the mother of all things.

 

Ie .  we can see (identify )  the 'cause'  ( the mother )  after creation , in the creation . 

 

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Nintendao said:

Bah, there’s already a hundred “illuminated translations” out there. Going forward I am happy to represent the quale grokker community.

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Cobie said:

It can be difficult to find an English word that means the same as the character and also is as concise as characters are. When English is not the first language, it ican be hard to know if a word one finds in the dictionary is actually well known enough. So I totally understand CD’s reluctance to give up on the quale grokking. But it is incomprehensible. Grok your quale ???   Ah … it’s a typo!    It’s ’fock you quail’. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lao was 'bothered ' by a bird ?  

 

You better put that one in square brackets ! 

[Nungali]

51 minutes ago, steve said:

 

..

I need to try my best to understand in a way that makes sense to me.

I then need to put that understanding into action and see what happens,

 

 

 

51 minutes ago, steve said:

 

What does it mean to let nature take its course?

Am I a part of that nature?

If not, what am I?

What is nature exactly?

 

Nature is the 10,000 things     including you !   Now we get to the next bit ... what is your true nature ? 

I contend that if one is following their khvarenah or 'True Will'  they are living in harmony with their true nature and nature itself .  If one's True Will is to be an artists but instead you find yourself an unhappy factory worker  (or anything else )  then that is against your nature  and nature . 

 

Then again we could propose that anything a human does that no other animal does , is against nature . 

 

[ChiDragon]

2 hours ago, steve said:

 

How would you translate 天子 or 天师?

How about words like 天命, 天問, or 天地?

Or words like 理天, 氣天, and 象天 from 一贯道 (Yiguandao)?

 

To translate these terms, one must have the cultural background of understanding.  
天子 : son of sky(heaven); emperor   
To an English speaker properly would translated as "the son of heaven".
To a native speaker would be understood as "the son of the sky", Of course, this would sound awkward to an English speaker. 

The idea is more important than what is called. The direct translation of 天子 is the son of heaven(sky). The actual implication was directed to the emperor. In the ancient Chinese thinking, earth was ruled by the sky(heaven). The emperor rules on earth, therefore, the emperor was sent down from heaven(sky) to rule on earth.
 

天師: Astrologer
天命:  Fate; destiny 
天問: Ask the sky(heaven); question to the sky
 天地: Sky and earth; universe

 

理天: Principle of Sky(Heaven); Absolute reality

氣天: Spiritual world

象天: Material world 

Edited 1 hour ago by ChiDragon

[Nintendao]

Yes, quail groping is not endorsed by the QG. I happily pronounce quale to rhyme with kuàilè 快樂

Edited 1 hour ago by Nintendao

[Nungali]

1 minute ago, Nintendao said:

Yes, quail groping is not endorsed by the QG. Happily pronounce it to rhyme with kuàilè 快樂

 

 

hang on !  How did 'groping' get into it  ?  

 

 

[ChiDragon]

2 hours ago, steve said:

What does it mean to let nature take its course?

Am I a part of that nature?

If not, what am I?

What is nature exactly?

 

What does it mean to let nature take its course?

I thought you are having trouble with Chinese, please don't tell me you are having trouble with English too?

 

"To let nature take its course" simply means don't interrupt the course of nature. For example, the high way was built by blowing up the foothill loosen the support of the hill. As result, it was causing landslide, mudslide and the falling of bolder. That was considered the course of nature was interrupted. 

The TTC has four entities, human. earth, sky(heaven), and Tao. According to Laotze, human was an observer of the universe(天地) and follow the principle of the universe. First he lifted human out side of nature to observe what is happening in nature. Then, he threw human back into nature to cope with it.
人法地; human follows earth

地法天: earth follow sky(heaven) 
天法道 Sky(heaven) follows Tao
道法自然 Tao follows itself(自然, ziren)
 

Special note:
In reading the TTC, we must do away with the self-center and broaden our vision and look deep into the TTC. We are just a spectator of Laotze and listen to what he has to say. It is not up to us to determine what we want him to say. Peace!

Edited 57 minutes ago by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

My take  ( at the moment     ... which may change 'as I go along ' )  is ;    Heaven and Earth ' signify the primal 'division' from the one - 

giving us the three .  These three ( the one itself and its expression in  2 ) are  like the supernal  triad and above the 'abyss' (of comprehension ) - hence 'invisible ' . 

 

3. Invisible, was a name given to Tao at the origin of sky and earth.

 

But after that , below the abyss , in to manifestation  ( of the 10,000 things )  we can see in nature this 'signature '  ( TTC  Ch 42,  line  5 )

4. Visible, was a name given to Tao as the mother of all things.

 

Ie .  we can see (identify )  the 'cause'  ( the mother )  after creation , in the creation . 

 

The words of your choice are very ambiguous to me. However, for a non-native English speaker, I had to read it five times to figure it out. That you have understood of what the translation was saying. May I ask you am I right about that?

[ChiDragon]

21 hours ago, 心神 ~ said:

“When the Tao is sensed,

     one observes its inner mystery.

When the Tao is known,

     one observes its outer edge.”

Okay! 

Let's evaluate your idea. The lines have a nice contrast, but it did not fit the logic of the first line.

The second line is the exact translation of the original text. However, the first line we can only observes its mystery, but not its inner. There was no inner or outer mystery to be observed. Hence, we can only grok its quale is because it's invisible.