Are humans better off as sheep?

[Cadcam]

The fall of Adam and Eve came when they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Prior to that, it would seem they were just living and doing in an almost deterministic sort of way. Contemplating and cataloging what is good and evil seems to be the origin of the birth of consciousness and choice, decision making, and law. So, did the elders that wrote this story believe ignorance is bliss?

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, Cadcam said:

Contemplating and cataloging what is good and evil

 

Good and evil are very humanized concepts.   

 

Better perhaps to consider the processes that produce and remove Existence/Creation and the purposes for such.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pralaya

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzimtzum

 

 

[Sanity Check]

Evolution has been around for billions of years.

 

While human ignorance has enjoyed a very short lifespan by contrast.

 

Its possible evolution will outlast human ignorance.

 

And that people will eventually evolve out of that state of existence.

 

Although progress could be dragging us kicking and screaming the entire way.

[Haribol]

certainly not haha

[Sanity Check]

 

"Father! The sheeple has awakened."

[Nungali]

supposedly ... for a Christian, that is what we are supposed to be 

 

 

 

However from the shepherds perspective ....  he knows where they will 'end up '  . 

 

 

[Salvijus]

On 2025-12-12 at 12:35 AM, Nungali said:

supposedly ... for a Christian, that is what we are supposed to be 

 

 

 

However from the shepherds perspective ....  he knows where they will 'end up '  . 

 

 

 

When you're consumed by God, you become God aswell. When you submit to God's will which is Love, you become That. It's called enlightenment. 

 

"That whereby the rivers and seas are able to receive the homage and tribute of all the valley streams, is their skill in being lower than they; it is thus that they are the kings of them all."

 

"Why is the sea king of a hundred streams?
Because it lies below them." 

 

The thing to understand is that a prophet himself is a biggest sheep of all. That's what gives him his kingship. 

 

 

Edited Monday at 09:45 AM by Salvijus

[Nungali]

 

12 hours ago, Salvijus said:

 

When you're consumed by God, you become God aswell.

 

Yes ...   I   think that is also called  having a 'God Complex'  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_complex

 

 

12 hours ago, Salvijus said:

 

When you submit to God's will which is Love, you become That. It's called enlightenment. 

 

Nah ...  Enlightenment is usually described in other terms ( a profound state of spiritual awakening , wisdom, liberation  from ignorance and suffering - stuff like that)  .     You seem to be describing   some   type of religious emulation  via sublimation . 

 

12 hours ago, Salvijus said:

 

"That whereby the rivers and seas are able to receive the homage and tribute of all the valley streams, is their skill in being lower than they; it is thus that they are the kings of them all."

 

Yes, that seems to be about  the idea that  true power and influence come from humility and yielding, not dominance -  The greatest leaders attract followers by being humble and putting themselves below others, just as rivers collect tributaries by being the lowest point.

 

It seems advice for rulers in the way of  the Dao ... not  advice for the people to become like Gods ... which seems to be what you are now suggesting ? 

 

12 hours ago, Salvijus said:

 

"Why is the sea king of a hundred streams?
Because it lies below them." 

 

Again affirmed by the use of 'King'   - the perspective  here is not aimed at 'the people ' ( here ,  the rivers and streams  are 'the people' )

 

 

12 hours ago, Salvijus said:

 

The thing to understand is that a prophet himself is a biggest sheep of all. That's what gives him his kingship. 

 

 

 

 

NOT in Christianity ,,,, not at all .  Jeus is clearly the Shepard  ( John 10:11 , Mathew 25: 31 - 46   ,  Hebrews 13;20 ,  1 Peter 5 : 4 , 

 

 

- I will put this down to yet another Christian trying to juggle Daoism into the 'Christian Box'  of their own belief system  . ... or perhaps there is some other 'motive'  ? 

[S:C]

9 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Shepard

He is also called the lamb, which got slaughtered by his own kind. 

[S:C]

17 minutes ago, S:C said:

slaughtered by his own kind. 

Humans. Or so it seems.
 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, S:C said:

He is also called the lamb, which got slaughtered by his own kind. 

 

Lambs slaughtering lambs then ?      Makes sense  ;  

 

 

 

Jesus thing  makes 'sense '  too ....  IF   we assume the Lord ( Jehovah)  wanted lamb for dinner as well  . Not surprising at all since this lord likes fresh blood  scattered around his temple , joints and legs of meat in a 'wave offering '   and burnt upon the altar and his fav. incense is the sizzling fat of BBQ kidneys . 

 

But that all got subverted by Jesus ending sacrifice like that .. after he got sacrificed up to own farther as some type of strange Canaanite   offering   . 

[S:C]

‘sublimation’ as phase changing?

just like eating apples:

lilith and/or snowwhite both did. 
maybe a parallel (or parable?) is recognizable ?

Edited Monday at 11:18 PM by S:C

[S:C]

On 10.12.2025 at 5:53 AM, Cadcam said:

ignorance is bliss

- within the herd .
bliss and recognition come at a price & sometimes to soon. thus it might help to forget from time to time. 
 

Edited Monday at 11:48 PM by S:C

[Salvijus]

9 hours ago, Nungali said:

NOT in Christianity ,,,, not at all .  Jeus is clearly the Shepard  ( John 10:11 , Mathew 25: 31 - 46   ,  Hebrews 13;20 ,  1 Peter 5 : 4 , 

 

I wasn't contradicting that. I was complimenting it. It is their profound surrender to God's will (natural flow of Dao) that makes them leaders. Paradoxically so. 

 

Quote

Yes, that seems to be about the idea that true power and influence come from humility and yielding, not dominance - The greatest leaders attract followers by being humble and putting themselves below others, just as rivers collect tributaries by being the lowest point.

 

To echo Dao De Jing:

 

"So the last will be first, and the first will be last" Matthew 19:30 

 

"Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted." Matthew 23:12:

 

9 hours ago, Nungali said:

Enlightenment is usually described in other terms ( a profound state of spiritual awakening , wisdom, liberation  from ignorance and suffering - stuff like that

 

Yes, love. No contradiction here either. 

 

Quote

- I will put this down to yet another Christian trying to juggle Daoism into the 'Christian Box' of their own belief system . ... or perhaps there is some other 'motive' ? 

 

My motive was to wish you Merry Christmas. 🌟🙏

 

 

Edited yesterday at 06:17 AM by Salvijus

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, Salvijus said:

It is their profound surrender to God's will (natural flow of Dao) that makes them leaders.

 

 2 Corinthians 6:18

“And I will be a father to you,
And you shall be sons and daughters to Me,”
Says the Lord Almighty.

 

 

My own view is that a father delegates parts of the family business to the offspring.  I am not sure how well that works with surrender.

 

[old3bob]

 

I'd say most "Eastern religions" and many of its ways do not correlate or match up all that well with major parts of orthodox Christianity.  Thus many (new age like) attempts to conflate same could twist one's mind into a pretzel even if there are some correlations that do match up.

 

Btw, "the last will be first, and the first will be last" Matthew 19:30.   Is a saying I appreciate but what does it mean to me?  My take is that the first to manifest will be the last to return to the unmanifest,  or in other words the very first and purest light and sound (aka the "Word" in Christianity) to manifest will be the last to return to "Mystery" (a term used in Taoism) or the unmanifest which the human mind can not really wrap its head around except as a concept.  

 

Btw #2,  Ime Master Jesus is like both an awesome indomitable "lion" of unbreakable golden/white light spiritual will power yet He can also be like a gentle shepherd with us human beings (with many of us that are like lambs or sheep in comparison to the more evolved souls that are like lions in their will power that is in alignment with the greater power)  per or in an appropriate context. 

 

 

Edited 21 hours ago by old3bob

[Salvijus]

10 hours ago, Lairg said:

My own view is that a father delegates parts of the family business to the offspring.  I am not sure how well that works with surrender.

 

The only way to do Father's work is by surrendering to his will. I guess that's how I would combine these two ideas. 

 

8 hours ago, old3bob said:

I'd say most "Eastern religions" and many of its ways do not correlate or match up all that well with major parts of orthodox Christianity.  Thus many (new age like) attempts to conflate same could twist one's mind into a pretzel even if there are some correlations that do match up.

 

Twisting all religions into a single pretzel is my favorite thing to do, haha. You get a nice infinity simbol aswell 🥨 

[Jadespear]

On 12/9/2025 at 10:53 PM, Cadcam said:

The fall of Adam and Eve came when they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Prior to that, it would seem they were just living and doing in an almost deterministic sort of way. Contemplating and cataloging what is good and evil seems to be the origin of the birth of consciousness and choice, decision making, and law. So, did the elders that wrote this story believe ignorance is bliss?

 

... you're referencing a fabled myth as the prime source of a philosophical position?

Why not realize what you are? Exercising judgment on the entire human condition in how it relates to the well being of the entire species of people - is a fools errand.  You will never ever be able to make anything out of it.  So why even think along these lines? 

 

In response to the direct question - No.  Human beings are not sheep, never have been, and never will be.  Recognizing what one is is part of the spiritual path.  In the taoist view - devolving into animals is the reversal of evolution.  

 

Ignorance is not bliss.  People who say that, have never experienced actual spiritual bliss.  Ignorance is a cause of suffering/disempowerment of people in the world, not it's answer.  

[Nungali]

15 hours ago, Salvijus said:

 

I wasn't contradicting that. I was complimenting it. It is their profound surrender to God's will (natural flow of Dao) that makes them leaders. Paradoxically so. 

 

 

To echo Dao De Jing:

 

"So the last will be first, and the first will be last" Matthew 19:30 

 

"Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted." Matthew 23:12:

 

 

Yes, love. No contradiction here either. 

 

Dont call me love . 

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Salvijus said:

 

 

My motive was to wish you Merry Christmas. 🌟🙏

 

 

 

 

Somehow .... I missed that . 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Salvijus said:

 

The only way to do Father's work is by surrendering to his will. I guess that's how I would combine these two ideas. 

 

 

Twisting all religions into a single pretzel is my favorite thing to do, haha. You get a nice infinity simbol aswell 🥨 

 

Exactly ! 

 

Brilliant !  Classic example of a new age blend of east and west mysticism ... in that   (in case you never realized)  ; 

 

a pretzel is NOTHING like the infinity symbol  .... a perfect demonstration of how the east and west mysteries correlate !    

 

 

      

 

but then again, maybe you can not tell the difference ?  

[Nungali]

51 minutes ago, Jadespear said:

 

... you're referencing a fabled myth as the prime source of a philosophical position?

 

Of course they are   ...  this is Abrahamic religions discussion forum    

 

 

51 minutes ago, Jadespear said:

Why not realize what you are? Exercising judgment on the entire human condition in how it relates to the well being of the entire species of people - is a fools errand.  You will never ever be able to make anything out of it.  So why even think along these lines? 

 

In response to the direct question - No.  Human beings are not sheep, never have been, and never will be.  Recognizing what one is is part of the spiritual path.  In the taoist view - devolving into animals is the reversal of evolution.  

 

Ignorance is not bliss.  People who say that, have never experienced actual spiritual bliss.  Ignorance is a cause of suffering/disempowerment of people in the world, not it's answer.  

 

It is apparently a Christian religious answer . I never made a good Christian as a little fellah ... apparently I asked too many questions and was encouraged to drop all that .... just 'be good' , plod along, dont cause trouble, no rocking the boat , and stop being interested in all that other stuff you want to know about  ... and eventually :  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, Salvijus said:

 

The only way to do Father's work is by surrendering to his will. I guess that's how I would combine these two ideas. 

 

Twisting all religions into a single pretzel is my favorite thing to do, haha. You get a nice infinity symbol as well 🥨 

 

well I've done some of that pretzel-ing myself but it doesn't really work that well with the wide and sometimes very drastic differences among  religions even if ultimately they all or mostly derive from on pretzel.  

[old3bob]

 

"Autobiography of a Yogi" goes into Hindu-yoga/ Christianity correlations a lot but to me parts of it are a bridge too far...

 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

well I've done some of that pretzel-ing myself but it doesn't really work that well with the wide and sometimes very drastic differences among  religions even if ultimately they all or mostly derive from on pretzel.  

 

Dont pretzelytize  !     

 

Pretzelytize ; 

  To convert or attempt to convert someone from one ( a mixed up hodge - podge of )   religion, belief, or opinion to another. 

 

 

[Salvijus]

There's an element of infinity in a pretzel. Similarly all religions have an element of infinity that connects them. 

 

Btw, historically a pretzel was a symbol of hands being in a prayer position and three circles represented holy trinity. It originated with an Italian Christian monk giving "pretiolas" or "little gifts" to children for memorizing prayers. You could say a pretzel is a symbol of prayer, love and infinity all in one. 

 

Beautiful. Just don't take it too seriously. It's just a fun little comparison. 

 

Edited 8 hours ago by Salvijus