The practice of Neidan(內丹)

[steve]

In a similar vein to the East-West dichotomy in understanding, conceptualization, and language discussed in the article above on Qi; I just stumbled across this quotation from Joseph Campbell that describes this fundamental difference in religious/spiritual life. 

 

“God and Buddhas in the Orient are not final terms like Yahweh, the Trinity, or Allah, in the West - but point beyond themselves to that ineffable being, consciousness, and rapture that is the All in all of us. And in their worship, the ultimate aim is to effect in the devotee a psychological transfiguration through a shift of his plane of vision from the passing to the enduring, through which he may come finally to realize in experience (not simply as an act of faith) that he is identical with that before which he bows."

-Joseph Campbell

 

Of course there are exceptions on both sides, but the quotation rings true in my personal experience with Eastern and Western religions and related practices and rituals. 

[DynamicEquilibrium]

15 minutes ago, steve said:

[...] the East-West dichotomy in understanding, conceptualization, and language [...] 

Makes me think about the differences between analog and digital signals. 

 

 

[Cobie]

The idea of an East-West dichotomy imo is a leftover from colonialism (differentiate to feel superior). The more I learn to read Chinese, the more I see there is no difference at all at the core. 
 

 

Edited 13 hours ago by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

19 hours ago, Apech said:

For me the distinction around neidan is about the Dan, the elixir or pill for immortality (ultimately).

In English format, the term Neidan implies it is the method to obtain neidan (internal elixir). In Chinese format, it was understood as 內丹术。术: method; technique.

Edited 12 hours ago by ChiDragon

[forestofclarity]

Great article, I appreciate it. 

 

I also like the larger, unsaid tension between how many of us perceive things (as discrete, enduring, often atomic units) and how things actually are (non-static, dynamic). Buddhism is an interesting bridge between what one may call the ancient Chinese and ancient Greek ways of looking at things since it basically picks apart the atomic model to reveal underlying emptiness.

 

I think this article explains why I find it so weird that we often argue about things like whether the Dao De Jing is about government, or cultivation, or something else. Or that this is neidan but not that, or this school is right and this one is not. Such rigid fixation! 

 

2 hours ago, steve said:

I liked how the article pointed out fundamental differences in Eastern and. Western language and ontology and its effect on our conceptualization and understanding of Qi. I also like how it emphasized the contextual and relational nature of Qi which makes it a bit difficult to define it in Western terms as a precise quantity or substance. 

 

[ChiDragon]

5 hours ago, Master Logray said:

In China, most people, cultivators, health, martial and sport enthusiasts do not take time to investigate what is Chi or many of the abstract terms. 

Yes, it is very true that the Chinese really don't care. I had been asking many fellow men. My answer from them was that "chi is chi" with a smile. They do not give a final answer. However, an English speaker would demand an answer. So, a Chinese would say "it is "energy."

I was told by a TCM herbalist, chi could be meant it is the function of an organ as an esoteric meaning in TCM. When they say "the chi of an organ was blocked". It was actually meant "the organ is malfunction." Somehow, the translation came across the west ended up "the energy of the organ was blocked." If we think about it, If chi is so mighty, how can it be blocked so easily with anything. Does that make any sense to you? Unfortunately, I could not accept this blockage logic. Could anyone of you?

Edited 9 hours ago by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

Makes me think about the differences between analog and digital signals.

Yes, the information in both system do not get altered. However, the digital signals are much stronger and clear with less margin of error.

[ChiDragon]

On 12/19/2025 at 9:43 AM, DynamicEquilibrium said:

In any serious investigation into the nature of things it makes sense that personal beliefs and opinions should be left out of the way. 

Yes, you are referring to the Wu Wei way. That is the way it should be. I couldn't agree more. Thanks for mentioning it.

Edited 11 hours ago by ChiDragon

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

[Cobie]

 

24 minutes ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

 

Could you please give the title and author of the book?

 

 

Edited 11 hours ago by Cobie

[DynamicEquilibrium]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

The idea of an East-West dichotomy imo is a leftover from colonialism (differentiate to feel superior). The more I learn to read Chinese, the more I see there is no difference at all at the core. 
 

 

 

Another kind of leftover (not being serious): 

East: Associated to Wood, very good at networking (Wood wide web they said).

West: Associated to Metal, very good at cutting into pieces. 

 

So, if you have an issue with your gall blader in western medecine they cut it off, in eastern medecine they try to return the whole organism to a state of balance to support the self-healing process of the sick part. 

 

Two different visions about life, values and the world (三觀).

 

28 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes, the information in both system do not get altered. However, the digital signals are much stronger and clear with less margin of error.

 

Is it possible to read analog signals with a digital device ? 

 

If we think about chinese caracters as some kind of 'ancestral holographic recordings', then we need the proper device to extract and render the multi-dimensional meanings, like in the movie 'Arrival' (2016).

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

19 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

Could you please give the title and author of the book?

 

 

Chinese Massage Manual: A Comprehensive, Step by Step Introduction to the Healing Art of Tui Na by Sarah Pritchard

 

Very good book 

[Cobie]

 

38 minutes ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

… Tui Na … 

推拿 (tui2 na3) Tui Na , Chinese medical massage [not to be confused with 吐纳 (tu3 na4) qigong breathing]

Idk.  I will just translate 氣 (qi4)  as ‘qi’ , then everyone can make up their own minds. 

I think qi is one’s sexuality, healthy sexuality balances yin and yang (dare I say it ) energies.

 

 

Edited 10 hours ago by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

42 minutes ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

Is it possible to read analog signals with a digital device ? 

 

If we think about chinese caracters as some kind of 'ancestral holographic recordings', then we need the proper device to extract

No, the two devices cannot be used to cross read them. The two kinds of signals require a different device to read them. However, humans are being bilingual, American or Chinese may read both languages. Of course, the accuracy of the meaning or interpretation depends on the comprehension of each individual.

 

The written Chinese is not any different than English. It just a difference in language. There are classic Chinese and colloquial English. Some may not able to read them. However, there should be no reason for some others not able to comprehend. For example, the Tao Te Ching was written with ancient style of characters and classic meaning. Indeed, the need of a proper device to extract them which is a knowledge native person. Otherwise, the modern people would have no way to understand them. 

[Cobie]

 

23 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

… the Tao Te Ching was written with ancient style of characters and classic meaning. Indeed, the need of a proper device to extract them which is a knowledge native person. Otherwise, the modern people would have no way to understand them. 

Each to his own. I prefer to go with the info provided by Sinologist paleographers. 

 

Edited 9 hours ago by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

2 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Each to his own. I prefer to go with the info provided by Sinologistpaleographers. 

To get a complete comprehension of the Tao Te Ching should not be by preference. It requires an open mind with wisdom, intelligence and good judgment. 

[Cobie]

I respect your wide knowledge on the subject.  I will leave it at this. 

[ChiDragon]

On 12/19/2025 at 10:27 AM, Wordless said:

creating space (yin) which in turn the Huang will naturally want to fill out and the qi will empower the build up of more Huang (as Huang is highly conductive to qi)

May I ask what is the character for Huang? I can't figure it out by pinyin!

Edited 9 hours ago by ChiDragon

[Wordless]

3 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

May I ask what is the character for Huang? I can't figure out it by pinyin!

A quick google gave me this:

In the context of Yi Jin Jing (Muscle/Tendon Changing Classic), the Chinese character 黃 (huáng) refers to the fascia and web of connective tissues (the "yellow" substance filling spaces)

 

Whether it's the correct character, i have no idea, i'm not chinese. You can look up the Yi Jin Jing and find the character in there i suppose.

[ChiDragon]

Mods, please delete!

Edited 7 hours ago by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

2 hours ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

 

 

3 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes, it is very true that the Chinese really don't care. I had been asking many fellow men. My answer from them was that "chi is chi" with a smile. They do not give a final answer. However, an English speaker would demand an answer. So, a Chinese would say "it is "energy."

I was told by a TCM herbalist, chi could be meant it is the function of an organ as an esoteric meaning in TCM. When they say "the chi of an organ was blocked". It was actually meant "the organ is malfunction." Somehow, the translation came across the west ended up "the energy of the organ was blocked." If we think about it, If chi is so mighty, how can it be blocked so easily with anything. Does that make any sense to you? Unfortunately, I could not accept this blockage logic. Could anyone of you?

May I ask which part is so funny to you?

[ChiDragon]

17 minutes ago, Wordless said:

A quick google gave me this:

In the context of Yi Jin Jing (Muscle/Tendon Changing Classic), the Chinese character 黃 (huáng) refers to the fascia and web of connective tissues (the "yellow" substance filling spaces)

 

Whether it's the correct character, i have no idea, i'm not chinese. You can look up the Yi Jin Jing and find the character in there i suppose.

It makes no sense!

[steve]

7 hours ago, Cobie said:

The idea of an East-West dichotomy imo is a leftover from colonialism (differentiate to feel superior). The more I learn to read Chinese, the more I see there is no difference at all at the core. 
 

 

 

I agree there is no difference at the core. 
There are meaningful differences on the way there, such as in language construction and conceptualization, not to mention cultural context.

At least that’s been my experience.

This is one reason why it’s so helpful to have friends who are native speakers when learning the language.

[DynamicEquilibrium]

6 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

No, the two devices cannot be used to cross read them. The two kinds of signals require a different device to read them. However, humans are being bilingual, American or Chinese may read both languages. Of course, the accuracy of the meaning or interpretation depends on the comprehension of each individual.

 

The written Chinese is not any different than English. It just a difference in language. There are classic Chinese and colloquial English. Some may not able to read them. However, there should be no reason for some others not able to comprehend. For example, the Tao Te Ching was written with ancient style of characters and classic meaning. Indeed, the need of a proper device to extract them which is a knowledge native person. Otherwise, the modern people would have no way to understand them. 

 

Yes, same problem as using AI where human trained natural capacities are required. 

It is one of the purpose of 性命雙修 to reconstruct the proper 'operating system and device'. 

 

Being a knowlegeable native speaker doesn't help here. An exemple of something we can observe everywhere around the world are brothers and sisters, parents and children, this generation and the preceding one... not understanding each others despite speaking the same language. 

 

Do you think you, me or anyone could understand messages from 1000, 2000, 3000 years ago if today we can't understand each others ? 

 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by DynamicEquilibrium

[DynamicEquilibrium]

3 hours ago, steve said:

 

I agree there is no difference at the core. 
There are meaningful differences on the way there, such as in language construction and conceptualization, not to mention cultural context.

At least that’s been my experience.

This is one reason why it’s so helpful to have friends who are native speakers when learning the language.

Agree about afterborn differences. 

 

For inborn differences, very small babies in the kindergarden already show clear individualities without having being affected by their environements yet. 

 

Please, can you explain what you mean by the term core ? 

 

Edited 2 hours ago by DynamicEquilibrium