The practice of Neidan(內丹)

[Apech]

On 13/12/2025 at 3:54 PM, ChiDragon said:

How do you practice this 陽神功。Please describe. Thanks!

 

AI only collects information but do not make up stories to lie to you.

AI (grok and perplexity) often make things up it is well known.  You can use them as a research tool with caution but you have to check everything with sources.  You cannot rely on AI for interpretation or guidance.

[Antares]

4 hours ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Imagine thinking that AI would know information passed down orally by humans 

and can transmit the yuan Qi

 

[Antares]

1 hour ago, 29Gathering said:

I asked AI how to become a master at this. It's sources were random threads on reddit, thedaobums and healingtaousa.

 

Yeah, it may be does the search through the Bums and takes ChiDragon' posts as the truth and then recommends it back to ChiDragon. Then he will say to all of us: "You see, I was right, AI is telling the same things that I say!"

[forestofclarity]

19 minutes ago, Antares said:

and can transmit the yuan Qi

 

 

Interesting position given Liu Yiming's commentary on Zhang Boduan's poem 6 of Awakening to Reality as discussed in this thread!

 

Do you have a classic source that backs this up, or is this a part of the oral tradition of your school?  

[Antares]

4 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

Do you have a classic source that backs this up, or is this a part of the oral tradition of your school?

For example, this method:

https://all-dao.com/features-jiuyangshengong.html

 

works only when transmitted and in presence of the teacher/instructor. if one tries to do it without such transmission they will get nothing at all or deviations. also to make it working one must practice preparatory Daogong system for some period of time.

even Daogong system must be done with instructor otherwise there will 99% chance you will get deviations

so in fact teacher activates pre - heaven mechanism

[Master Logray]

AI and translator are only effective if the person is well versed with the subject and is able to find out the mistakes and correct them.  If a person only reads a few websites and think he already knows everything and then use AI/translator, the result would be a disaster.  Post such result on the web would spread the wrongs to subsequent usage by everyone.   I do not trust AI as it even can't give correct info like fare, opening hours and so on.

Edited Thursday at 05:16 PM by Master Logray

[DynamicEquilibrium]

2 hours ago, Antares said:

For example, this method:

https://all-dao.com/features-jiuyangshengong.html

 

works only when transmitted and in presence of the teacher/instructor. if one tries to do it without such transmission they will get nothing at all or deviations. also to make it working one must practice preparatory Daogong system for some period of time.

even Daogong system must be done with instructor otherwise there will 99% chance you will get deviations

so in fact teacher activates pre - heaven mechanism

How teacher avoids to create dependent relationships with the learners and prevent any 'cultish' possible deviations in such system? 

Edited Thursday at 05:35 PM by DynamicEquilibrium

[ChiDragon]

2 hours ago, Antares said:

 

Yeah, it may be does the search through the Bums and takes ChiDragon' posts as the truth and then recommends it back to ChiDragon. Then he will say to all of us: "You see, I was right, AI is telling the same things that I say!"

Please don't forget, AI is invented by human. Human has the wisdom over AI. If people only has a cold and one track mind just rely on what they read and blindly believe it without digestion of the material, then, how far can they go? Unfortunately, people tend to believe the mistakes made by the language that they are familiar with and disregard any reasonable doubt. BTW Your's truly is no dummy!

 

Should we pay more attention to the subject rather than attacking the AI? Ladies and gentlemen. 

[ChiDragon]

41 minutes ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

How teacher avoids to create dependent relationships with the learners and prevent any 'cultish' possible deviations in such system? 

It is impossible to do so. It is because each teach will create more deviations. That is why there are so many styles of Taijiquan. I practiced the Yang style Taiji for many years, I had changed some of the moves to fit myself. Does it affect my health? NO! Deviations are only cosmetic. Of course, I would only breathe with my nose but not my mouth. 

 

PS

Look at Cheng Man Ching. He learnt the Yang style Taiji from a great master. However, he created his own style and called The Cheng Man Ching. The movements in his style are so awkward and hard to remember.  That is a big deviation. Don't you think? FYI It still has the same heath effect of Taijiquan. To tell you the truth, I hated his style.

 

Edited Thursday at 06:17 PM by ChiDragon

[Wordless]

Using AI to get any reliable information whatsoever is foolish. At best you'll just have a bunch of random sources you now have to go read through, hoping they are of decent quality.

 

Qi gong is a modern term while neidan is a much older term.

Any true qi gong ("true" as in, effective at internal change) is based on the principles of the Yi Jin Jing.

I wouldn't consider neidan to be covered by the modern qi gong term.

Nei gong could probably be put as a subcategory or part of qi gong, but that still wouldn't make neidan the same as any qi gong.

 

Neidan is mainly a meditative, seated or standing, internal practice. Nei gong would usually include movements and such to guide internal energy.

 

Also thinking AI will provide better translations than a professional human translator is ridiculous. At best it'll provide a mixture of modern and old professional translations of the work it's attempting to translate. At worst it'll drop in all kinds of random stuff from a whole host of mixed sources with a high variation in quality. Also would not actually support the people that worked hard on making a high quality translation of a work.

 

As for the practice of neidan, i'll leave that commentary to the more senior members here. We should at least be able to somewhat agree on the meaning of the terms used, before any constructive conversation or debate can be had. Hopefully this post have managed to do so.

 

 

[ChiDragon]

Just now, Wordless said:

Qi gong is a modern term while neidan is a much older term.

 

We should at least be able to somewhat agree on the meaning of the terms used, before any constructive conversation or debate can be had. Hopefully this post have managed to do so.

The problem here is people said they practice qigong and Neidan. Unfortunately, they cannot come up a good description of how they practiced. It seems that those words are just throwing out from here and there. So what, someone practiced, but can't describe it. What good does do? It is a sad thing that people do not realize the practice of breathing is the key to everything. By ignoring this fact, there no need to talk about what they practice. 🤐

Edited Thursday at 08:01 PM by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Just now, Wordless said:

I wouldn't consider neidan to be covered by the modern qi gong term.

Sorry to hear that. The age of the term has nothing to do with the relationship of the systems. It is significant to understand the definition of the terms. The modern terms are only have a better description for expression. People don't follow the definition won't be able to understand nor link one thing to another. By saying what is not without a full understanding, it would be just like shooting air in space. For what?

Edited Thursday at 07:59 PM by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Wordless said:

Using AI to get any reliable information whatsoever is foolish. At best you'll just have a bunch of random sources you now have to go read through, hoping they are of decent quality.

 I can sense the uncertainty in your concern. It seems nothing is certain for sure.

May I have your permission to be to first fool to present the untouched original native definitions of Naidan and Qigong. Untouched means not a translation. It is not from a classic document. It is just native talk or literature by the knowledge people of the kind? 

Can we go from there without any distortion from other languages.  Please don't use any translator to avoid any misunderstanding. Otherwise, we will be ended up of where we were before. Thank you!

Respectfully wait for you response!

Edited Thursday at 08:33 PM by ChiDragon

[DynamicEquilibrium]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

 It is a sad thing that people do not realize the practice of breathing is the key to everything. 

If not mistaken, Zhang Boduan may have had realized that breathing wasn't the key to refine Yuanqi as he seems to clearly state it in his preface to the 金丹四百字：

"炼气者，炼元气，非口鼻呼吸之气"

 

 

Edited Thursday at 08:53 PM by DynamicEquilibrium

[ChiDragon]

57 minutes ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

If not mistaken, Zhang Boduan may have had realized that breathing wasn't the key to refine Yuanqi as he seems to state in his preface to the 金丹四百字：

"炼气者，炼元气，非口鼻呼吸之气"

I appreciate your valuable comment. However, the character 气 has a different contextual meaning in each context. There are tons of meanings for the character. Please accept my ignorance for being bilingual struggling to fight for my understanding of my own language. It is very difficult to explain myself in a very different hostile culture.
 

Back to the subject, I must clarify what it is saying here. What the classic statement was saying is:
Let's translate it first. It is very difficult for a non-native speaker to understand Chinese classic.
 

炼气者，炼元气: "Refining chi" means to refine the "prenatal chi"
非口鼻呼吸之气: It is not the chi(air) that we breathe by the nose or mouth.

炼元气: The chi is this phrase means the prenatal material, substance, matter and etc. Whatever you want to call it.

非口鼻呼吸之气: The chi in this phrase means breathing air.
Like I said before. 气功 means the method of breathing. I had said this many times already. I hope I don't need to repeat myself again. I hope people would know what the real meaning of 气功, Qigong is by now. 


PS

Thank you for asking the proper question to get a proper answer. Also, thank you for letting me to get this off my chest. It has been bothering me for years for not being able to explain myself.

Edited Thursday at 09:46 PM by ChiDragon

[DynamicEquilibrium]

20 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 

炼气者，炼元气: "Refining chi" means to refine the "prenatal chi"
非口鼻呼吸之气: It is not the chi that we breathe by the nose or mouth.

Clear, thank you.

 

20 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

炼元气: The chi is this phrase means the prenatal material, substance, matter and etc. Whatever you want to call it.
 

In the same preface he also states: 

"见之不可用、用之不可见."

 

Doesn't it means that Neidan 'ingredients' belong to the shapeless 無形 category ? 

If so, how could we define them as 有形 material substances since from the quote 'what can be seen can't be used' ?  

Edited Thursday at 09:48 PM by DynamicEquilibrium

[DynamicEquilibrium]

30 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

PS

Thank you for asking the proper question to get a proper answer. Also, thank you for letting me to get this off my chest. It has been bothering me for years for not being able to explain myself.

Glad you can experience a release feeling ☺️

[ChiDragon]

11 hours ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

In the same preface he also states: 

"见之不可用、用之不可见."

 

Doesn't it means that Neidan 'ingredients' belong to the shapeless 無形 category ? 

If so, how could we define them as 有形 material substances?  

The phrases are just paradoxical statements that are very common in Chinese classic. What it is trying to say was:
It was referring to Jing, Chi, Shen. Yes, they are the three treasuries imagined by the Taoist. However, they are not all shapeless. For example, yuen Jing(精) was defined as the prenatal Jing that is the basic unit comprises the human body. In modern terms, what is the basic unit that makes up the human body? Don't think that the body cell is analogous to the prenatal Jing? The best way to express 元精is by calling it a substance(物資).e  The body cell can be seen under a microscope, hence it is can be defined as 有形 material substances. However, it is invisible to the eyes of the ancient Taoist. It is because they knew it exist without a microscope.

元氣 and 元神 are shapeless is because they are just vital forces that initially drive the action of the human body.

Edited 16 hours ago by ChiDragon

[Apech]

33 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

The phrases are just paradoxical statements that are very common on Chinese classic. What it is trying to say was:
It was referring to Jing, Chi, Shen. Yes, they are the three treasuries imagined by the Taoist. However, they are not all shapeless. For example, yuen Jing(精) was defined as the prenatal Jing that is the basic unit that comprises the human body. In modern terms, what is the basic unit that makes up the human body? Don't think that the body cell is analogous to the prenatal Jing? The best way to express 元精is by calling it a substance(物資).  The body cell can be seen under a microscope, hence it is can be defined as 有形 material substances. However, it is invisible to the eyes of the ancient Taoist. It is because they knew it exist without a microscope.

元氣 and 元神 are shapeless is because they are just vital forces that initially drive the action of the human body.
 

Where does it say that Yuen jing is a ‘unit’?

[ChiDragon]

19 minutes ago, Apech said:

Where does it say that Yuen jing is a ‘unit’?

Let me ask you first. What do you think Yuen Jing is?

 

Edited Thursday at 11:16 PM by ChiDragon

[Apech]

11 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Let me ask you first. What do you think Yuen Jing is?

 

You said it was a ‘unit’ so I would like to know where you got that from.

[ChiDragon]

23 minutes ago, Apech said:

Where does it say that Yuen jing is a ‘unit’?

It says right here. However, you would like to interpret it.

https://m.baidu.com/bh/m/detail/ar_9447006070421903235
 

道家元精论

精 为形之基，是人体生命的物质基础，察受于先人而充乔十后天，故就其来源可分为先天之精与后天之精。“元精”，即揩先天之精而言。元者，始也，元精是生命的 捏源物质，并具有调节与主宰生殖、生民发育的作用。《内经》中虽无“元精”一词，但《灵枢•本神》“生之米，谓之精”、《灵枢•决气》“两神相搏，合而成 形，常先身生，是谓精”，以及《灵枢•经脉》“人始生，先成精”之“精”，皆是指元精而言。

精 为形之基，Jing is the basic form,
是人体生命的物质基础: It is the fundamental(基础) vital(生命) substance(物质) of the human body(人体).
 

[Apech]

37 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

It says right here. However, you would like to interpret it.

https://m.baidu.com/bh/m/detail/ar_9447006070421903235
 

道家元精论

精 为形之基，是人体生命的物质基础，察受于先人而充乔十后天，故就其来源可分为先天之精与后天之精。“元精”，即揩先天之精而言。元者，始也，元精是生命的 捏源物质，并具有调节与主宰生殖、生民发育的作用。《内经》中虽无“元精”一词，但《灵枢•本神》“生之米，谓之精”、《灵枢•决气》“两神相搏，合而成 形，常先身生，是谓精”，以及《灵枢•经脉》“人始生，先成精”之“精”，皆是指元精而言。

精 为形之基，Jing is the basic form,
是人体生命的物质基础: It is the fundamental(基础) vital(生命) substance(物质) of the human body(人体).
 

Thanks.  So it’s a fundamental vital substance of the body.  Good that’s clear.  A substance and not a unit after all.

 

 

[ChiDragon]

30 minutes ago, Apech said:

Thanks.  So it’s a fundamental vital substance of the body.  Good that’s clear.  A substance and not a unit after all.

 

You are welcome. Thank you for asking!

Doesn't it analogous to the body cell in modern language. The ancient Taoist do not have the term such as "body cell" to call this substance. Thus they had a way to express it by using chi(氣) to describe it. In order for the modern people to understand what chi is by using the term "物資(substance)".  The Chinese language does not spell everything out like in English. When they look at the character 氣, it could be anything that comes into their mind. It would be very confusing if we interpret 氣 as energy for anything that we come across. 

Yuen Chi comprises the structure of the human human body.

A cell is the smallest living organism and the basic unit of life on earth.
In these two statements, aren't we saying the same thing but in different time frame?
 

So, the confusion between Neigong, Neidan ang Qigong will be haunting us forever.

Edited yesterday at 12:44 AM by ChiDragon

[Apech]

31 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

You are welcome. Thank you for asking!

Doesn't it analogous to the body cell in modern language. The ancient Taoist do not have the term such as "body cell" to call this substance. Thus they had a way to express it by using chi(氣) to describe it. In order for the modern people to understand what chi is by using the term "物資(substance)".  The Chinese language does not spell everything out like in English. When they look at the character 氣, it could be anything that comes into their mind. It would be very confusing if we interpret 氣 as energy for anything that we come across. 

Yuen Chi comprises the structure of the human human body.

A cell is the smallest living organism and the basic unit of life on earth.
In these two statements, aren't we saying the same thing but in different time frame?
 

So, the confusion between Neigong, Neidan ang Qigong will be haunting us forever.

No that doesn’t follow at all.  Not even by analogy. 
 

But I’m glad you cleared up your argument for the idea of a unit.  Substance is a better word to use especially in the context of Neidan.  It is more accurate although of course one needs to be crystal clear about what exactly a substance is in this context.