My misconceptions

[stirling]

16 hours ago, Cobie said:

For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? (Matthew 16:2)

 

From my perspective, considered as a non-dual/no-self koan,  this looks like a trick question. 

[Keith108]

3 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Informally, this is also a technique in Soto Zen (all Zen?). The student is instructed to just sit, with no technique or instruction. What naturally happens (of course!) is that the mind runs riot making the sitter feel crazy. With practice the student eventually finds that the mind runs out of material and becomes still for brief periods of time. I have never recommended this practice, or met a student I thought would benefit from it, though I have met other teachers who have. 

 

I prefer the Bönpo version.

 

Probably half of Zen, or thereabouts.

 

The Linji/Korean Seon/Rinzai instruction is to investigate the hwadu (word - head). In the Korean tradition, we raise the question "what am I?". This strong self inquiry serves to do the same thing - exhaust the discursive mind, and cause a shift of view. 

 

_/|\_

Keith

 

 

[Keith108]

22 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

human beings and I'd say all other types of created beings evolve, devolve or change... Spirit/Buddha nature/The Self/or your preferred term/ do not.  But with beings that are going through particular  changes  one could say there are changing levels, states, or phases.  Imo such is depicted in the Tibetan wheel of life.  Cryptic like sayings about the absolute have different strokes for different folks.

 

 

 

This reminds of the "two truths" model of looking at the world. Ultimately, there is no enlightenment/nothing to do.

 

And yet, from a mundane viewpoint, practice is necessary. A shift away from self - reference (kensho) is necessary. Digesting the experience is necessary. In other words, stages. But to think of it terms of stages reifies the self view. 

 

So, we just practice and see what happens!

 

The best words I have ever read on the subject can be found here: Bassui's Talk on One Mind.

 

_/|\_

Keith

[Keith108]

Here is poem about the thing that never changes:

 

Quote

Coming empty-handed, going empty-handed – that is human.
When you are born, where do you come from?
When you die, where do you go?
Life is like a floating cloud which appears.
Death is like a floating cloud which disappears.
The floating cloud itself originally does not exist.
Life and death, coming and going, are also like that.
But there is one thing which always remains clear.
It is pure and clear, not depending on life and death.

Then what is the one pure and clear thing?

 

From here. 

 

[Mark Foote]

On 12/4/2025 at 6:04 PM, Tommy said:

Am I wrong to think there is no phases or levels? 
 

 

 

Working on a post in response to your last question, about "chop wood carry water"--something from that writing:

 

 

Zen teachers demonstrate the relinquishment of volitive activity in the body in favor of the free location of “one-pointedness of mind”, constantly. Reb Anderson observed such demonstrations in the actions of Shunryu Suzuki:

 

… I remember (Suzuki’s) dharma talks and I remember him in the zendo—that was wonderful teaching. I remember him moving rocks—wonderful teaching. I remember seeing him eat—that was wonderful teaching. He was teaching all the time in every situation. But when he couldn't sit anymore and couldn't walk anymore, he still taught right from there. 

(Reb Anderson, from a 1995 recording:  https://www.cuke.com/people/anderson-reb.htm)
 

 

In the parlance of Gautama:

 

And what… is the ceasing of action? That ceasing of action by body, speech, and mind, by which one contacts freedom,–that is called ‘the ceasing of action’.  

 

(SN 35.146, tr. Pali Text Society vol IV p 85)

 

As to "one-pointedness of mind":
 

In my experience, “one-pointedness” occurs when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a singular location in the body, and a person “lays hold of one-pointedness” when they remain awake as the singular location shifts.

(Just to Si

t)

 

“One-pointedness of mind” occurs out of necessity, in the course of an inhalation or exhalation. The subtle necessity of posture or carriage can induce one-pointedness in seated meditation and in daily living, again in the course of an inhalation or exhalation.

 

 

"Phases" or "levels" in concentration may have to do with the way "one-pointedness of mind" coordinates reflex activity to shift the fascia behind the sacrum and spine rearward to support the nerve exits between vertebrae, and thereby open the body to the placement of "one-pointedness" anywhere in the body.  Forsaking "one-pointedness" for the particulars drops the ball, ignoring "one-pointedness" in the apprehension of the particulars also drops the ball. 

Fortunately we still breathe. Not really levels in the necessity of that, only in opening the body appropriately.

 

 

 

 

[old3bob]

6 hours ago, Keith108 said:

 

This reminds of the "two truths" model of looking at the world. Ultimately, there is no enlightenment/nothing to do.

 

And yet, from a mundane viewpoint, practice is necessary. A shift away from self - reference (kensho) is necessary. Digesting the experience is necessary. In other words, stages. But to think of it terms of stages reifies the self view. 

 

So, we just practice and see what happens!

 

The best words I have ever read on the subject can be found here: Bassui's Talk on One Mind.

 

_/|\_

Keith

 

I'm not familiar with many Buddhist sayings but  a tangent on to the "
two truths' saying my take would say awareness of the apparent and of the not-apparent at once.

 

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

my take would say awareness of the apparent and of the not-apparent at once.

 

This allows outer action and inner action in parallel.

 

Chop wood while considering the flows of the cosmic ocean

[Keith108]

8 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

This allows outer action and inner action in parallel.

 

Chop wood while considering the flows of the cosmic ocean

Yes, you both have stated the gist of it. 

 

When some people read the Heart Sutra, they think it is nihilistic. Here is a snippet:

 

"Shariputra, all dharmas are marked with emptiness;  

they do not appear or disappear,

are not tainted or pure, do not increase or decrease.

Therefore, in emptiness no form, no feelings, perceptions, impulses, consciousness.

No eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind;  

no color, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch,

no object of mind; no realm of eyes  

and so forth until no realm of mind consciousness."

 

You can see why someone might conclude that. But, the Heart Sutra points out original emptiness (shunyatta). It's half of the equation. If we pair the view of the Heart Sutra, with everyday action, then we can act in a way doesn't cause suffering for ourselves and others. 

 

 

[Tommy]

On 12/5/2025 at 7:14 PM, Cobie said:

For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? (Matthew 16:2)

This statement made me think and ask questions.

Like what is a soul and do I have one? How would I lose my own soul if I gain the whole world? What does one have to do with the other? I mean it is a nice saying. But, its true meaning is lost because it seems to be out of context. Maybe someone is doing something that is hurting their soul while it provides that person with gain. Does this saying also include those who gain the world but hasn't done things to hurt their soul? Sorry, off topic and this mind tends to drift. 

[Lairg]

5 hours ago, Tommy said:

Like what is a soul and do I have one?

 

In the ancient Egyptian and Kabbalistic traditions the human has 5 souls.  The middle soul (anchoring in the higher mental body) corresponds to the Christian soul

 

 

[Nungali]

On 12/7/2025 at 2:08 AM, steve said:

 

There is an interesting Bönpo practice that is intended to actively exhaust the thinking mind so that it can release into stillness.

You reflect on actions of the body, speech, and mind (each individually), taking enough time to really feel and pay attention to how much energy and effort have been expended over time, going as far back in memory as possible. Take as much time as necessary to get a sense of the shear magnitude of all of that expended effort and energy. When the experience reaches a peak and feels overwhelming, you simply let all of it go and rest in the stillness, silence, and spaciousness of the present moment, similar to the feeling of returning home from a long journey or exhausting day of work and settling into your favorite chair or bed and fully allowing body and mind to rest.

It's a powerful technique.

 

Is there a (type of ) reverse Bonpo practice of this ?  ... what I call 'active meditation '   .... a 'polarity'  to the 'passive' meditation of  'stillness , silence , etc .   I dont mean like in the first part of the above practice where the mind is encouraged to be active  so as to move to the still state , but actually for the active part .  Its a process in magick   where one learns the magical  correspondences  so they 'bed in ' ( after a while into the 'unconscious ' ) so associations are 'automatic '  ; eg.  Venus  is similar to goddess Aphrodite , she rules love , her colors are the greens of nature, he incense is  jasmine , her mandala , shape,  number is .... etc . 

 

So , when one goes into the Venus temple , even the mind is active and wandering  each 'wander' ( focus on things around one ) is Venusian  and 'throws one back' into the 'Venus vibe '  ... so the active wandering mind is bought back into the focus of the operation or meditation . 

 

I am assuming something like exists  due to the extravagant flamboyance  of some rites , temples etc .  

 

 

and assuming all this  ^  is not just 'for show' but has inner significance regarding shape, sound,  form, smell,   color  ? 

[Nungali]

On 12/6/2025 at 8:51 PM, bradley said:

 

who needs a soul if you're rich... ( just kidding)  but serious though, it'd be nice to be rich, you know like crazy rich.  also be nice to be living in the 1970s, diving those awesome cars and calling people on your land line telephone, from the office in your mansion, of course, with my sectretary tapping away correspondences on her typewriter in the room next door. you know shes kind of cute, but Id never.  meanwhile my private cook is making prime rib in the kitchen for dinner. oh i can smell it from here. oh yes, tomorrow there is an art auction, im going to buy some for my mansion, we still appreciate physical things in the 1970s. and i need to meet jane for tennis at 10:00 tomorrow, before lunch. going to be a busy day 

 

     Why did Mathew 16:2  hurl you back into the 70s  ? 

 

have fun at 'tennis '   with  'Jane'   ;  

 

 

 

( ohhhhhhh   dear   !    ) 

 

[Nungali]

On 12/7/2025 at 4:06 AM, stirling said:

 

From my perspective, considered as a non-dual/no-self koan,  this looks like a trick question. 

 

or it could mean just : 

 

'' Dont take an office job . ''

 

[Nungali]

On 12/7/2025 at 7:42 AM, Keith108 said:

Here is poem about the thing that never changes:

 

 

From here. 

 

 

A curious conversation .   years back around the fire ; an aboriginal guy ; '' I dont get that white people philosophy stuff ?''

 

Me ;  '' What stuff ? ''

 

'' All that  who am I , why am I here , what is the purpose of life  ? I mean ... if you dont lknow any of that how you gonna do anything else ?  How can you go through life like that without knowing who you are and why you are here ?   You would think people like would make a real mess of things and not have a clue .''

 

Me ;  '' Ummmmm .... well,  yeah !  ''

 

'' What do you mean ?'' 

 

Me ;   < makes a gesture to include everything > 

 

'' Ohhhh  ... right  !  ''

 

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Tommy said:

This statement made me think and ask questions.

Like what is a soul and do I have one?

 

Excellent !  many just use the term and have  all sorts of ideas about it  .    

 

What do you think it might be ... from your perspective ( not really interested in a copy of others thoughts ... been researching that for decades ! )   ... let's say you do have one , what do you think it might be  ? 

 

 

8 hours ago, Tommy said:

 

How would I lose my own soul if I gain the whole world?

 

Office job ?  

 

Obviously the original context is not following the supposed  'current'  recommended  religious  practice    

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Tommy said:

 

 

What does one have to do with the other? I mean it is a nice saying. But, its true meaning is lost because it seems to be out of context. Maybe someone is doing something that is hurting their soul while it provides that person with gain. Does this saying also include those who gain the world but hasn't done things to hurt their soul? Sorry, off topic and this mind tends to drift. 

 

It can mean dont sell yourself out for material gains .

 

Are you familar with the idea that many indigenous or even 'third world ' people  with little material goods often seem naturally happy while rich people with a lot of possessions have a high rate of depression and 'pointlessness'   

 

( that is ... unless you own a jetski !     )  

 

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

In the ancient Egyptian and Kabbalistic traditions the human has 5 souls.  The middle soul (anchoring in the higher mental body) corresponds to the Christian soul

 

 

 

 You keep referencing this Egyptian  5 soul thing , even though its been pointed out twice  its incorrect 

 

Egyptian concept of 'souls' is up to 9  .  Are you trying to somehow join the Egyptian concept to the Kabbalistic ? 

 

and it also seems that by pacing them together like that you are assuming the Kabbalistic soul concept is similar to others .... nah ; 

 

 

''  In essence, while many philosophies explore multi-part souls (e.g., Ancient Egyptian) or the struggle between higher and lower selves, the specific combination of a dual soul structure, the five developmental levels, and the concept of the soul as a literal "part of God" waiting to be revealed within the context of Jewish law makes the Kabbalistic concept unique '' 

 

( not that this helps Tommy with his question ... you just obfuscated things for him )  

Edited 18 hours ago by Nungali

[stirling]

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

Egyptian concept of 'souls' is up to 9  .  Are you trying to somehow join the Egyptian concept to the Kabbalistic ?

 

Anyone who can show me at least one of your 9 souls gets a free lollipop. 

[stirling]

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

or it could mean just : 

 

'' Dont take an office job . ''

 

 

I liked my office job, but I definitely like this priest gig more.

[Apech]

4 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Anyone who can show me at least one of your 9 souls gets a free lollipop. 

Don’t make me facepalm you 😀

[bradley]

9 hours ago, Nungali said:

Why did Mathew 16:2  hurl you back into the 70s  ? 

if you are going to give up your soul to be rich, the 70s was the time to do it. sort of the height of analog american culture, before the start of the great digital downfall of man... : )

 

plus ive been watching a lot of Columbo.

[steve]

15 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Is there a (type of ) reverse Bonpo practice of this ?  ... what I call 'active meditation '   .... a 'polarity'  to the 'passive' meditation of  'stillness , silence , etc .   I dont mean like in the first part of the above practice where the mind is encouraged to be active  so as to move to the still state , but actually for the active part .  Its a process in magick   where one learns the magical  correspondences  so they 'bed in ' ( after a while into the 'unconscious ' ) so associations are 'automatic '  ; eg.  Venus  is similar to goddess Aphrodite , she rules love , her colors are the greens of nature, he incense is  jasmine , her mandala , shape,  number is .... etc . 

 

So , when one goes into the Venus temple , even the mind is active and wandering  each 'wander' ( focus on things around one ) is Venusian  and 'throws one back' into the 'Venus vibe '  ... so the active wandering mind is bought back into the focus of the operation or meditation . 

 

I am assuming something like exists  due to the extravagant flamboyance  of some rites , temples etc .  

 

 

and assuming all this  ^  is not just 'for show' but has inner significance regarding shape, sound,  form, smell,   color  ? 

 

Your image doesn't come through for me but there certainly is quite a bit of flamboyance in the Bön traditions.

The sounds, smells, costumes, iconography, stupas - lots of beautiful stuff (if you're into that sort of thing).

 

There are "nine ways" according to the old Bön tradition which I reference below. The first four are referred to as "causal vehicles" and are closely related to the shamanic roots of Bön and working with natural forces, elements, and energies and such. The 5th and 6th vehicles are related to the sutric paths (paths of renunciation, working with one's body, speech, and mind to reject samsara and strive towards liberation through prayer and mind training primarily). The 7th and 8th are the "tantric" vehicles. In this group we find many practices that I think are closest to what you are describing as "active meditation." Practices developing relationships with meditational deities (yidams) and elemental goddesses (dakinis) and becoming intimately familiar with all of their associations, visualizations, rituals, offerings, mudras, mantras, behaviors, etc... 

 

When I think of and refer to "active meditation," it is in the context of the 9th vehicle. These are not "active" practices per se but are an application of dzogchen practice to every activity imaginable. Life becomes the practice. The core practice, as I think you know, is to recognize the nature of the mind and eventually identify with this as one's ultimate "self." In this context, active meditation ultimately means that one remains fully connected with the mind's pure essence throughout every waking, active, sleeping, dreaming, and dying moment. The practice is to first establish stability and continuity in formal practice on a cushion in a quiet place, undisturbed. When stable enough, we try to find that connection, and eventually some stability and continuity, while engaged in "righteous" and "supportive" practices like reciting mantras, circumambulating sacred sites, reciting prayers, and so on. When that is successful, we move on to more mundane daily  activities like eating, cleaning, sex, and so on. Finally, we challenge ourselves with activities that would typically take us far out of that space - emotional and painful situations, jobs that involve creating harm (like butchery), fighting, and so forth. 

 

These categories are not mutually exclusive. Most practitioners are engaging with practices from different vehicles at any given time in their life depending on what is needed and how they are progressing. Tantric practitioners also practice with the nature of mind but do not consider that enough in and of itself and engage in transformative practices with the assistance of meditational deities. The 9th vehicle focuses exclusively on the nature of mind and states that the results of all other vehicles are accessible when this practice is done properly. 

 

The Nine Ways of Bön according to the Southern Treasures: (quoted from https://ravencypresswood.com/2013/02/24/what-are-the-nine-ways-of-bon/)

1. The Way of the Shen of Prediction: This Way includes divination, astrology, various rituals, and medical diagnosis.

2. The Way of the Shen of the Phenomenal World: This Way includes rituals dealing with communication with external forces such as rituals of protection, invocation, ransom of the soul and life-force, and  of repelling negative or harmful energies.

3. The Way of the Shen of Manifestation: This Way includes venerating a deity or master and then applying mantra and mudras in order to accomplish a goal such as requesting assistance from natural energies.

4. The Way of the Shen of Existence: This Way is primarily focused upon rituals for the dead and methods to promote longevity for the living.

5. The Way of the Virtuous Lay Practitioners: This Way specifies the proper conduct of lay person taking vows.

6.  The Way of the Fully Ordained: This Way specifies the proper conduct for those who are fully ordained practitioners.

7. The Way of the White AH: This Way is primarily focused upon tantric practice using visualization.

8. The Way of the Primordial Shen: This Way is primarily focused upon higher tantric practice.

9. The Unsurpassed Way: This Way is primarily focused upon the practice of Dzogchen, or The Great Perfection.  This Way does not rely upon antidotes of any kind, ritual or practice with a meditational deity.  It is concerned with the realization of the true nature of one’s own mind.

 

 

[steve]

15 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Anyone who can show me at least one of your 9 souls gets a free lollipop. 

 

My favorite -