Yes-But-Mind vs. Don't-Know-Mind

[stirling]

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

thus a contrivance of non-contrivance or bypassing, 

 

How so?

 

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

many here could also state or quote all sorts of transcendent stuff but such doesn't really cut it...

 

Aren't you throwing out the baby with the bathwater?  

 

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

and which can be dangerous for new and even some advanced students.  

 

How so? What danger? 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

......

 

How so? What danger? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

'' Ahhhhh ..... that's  'better'  ?  ''

[stirling]

8 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

 

 

'' Ahhhhh ..... that's  'better'  ?  ''

 

Trepanation - it's what's good for the nation!

[Mark Foote]

9 hours ago, stirling said:

 

The topic of this thread is a Zen expression, "don't know mind", that is a conceptual description of the mind clear, still, and ready for anything, arrived at by allow the mind to come to a stop. It isn't a practice, concept, or religious belief  (a baby in the bath water) it is precisely the lack of ANY effort or contrivance of the mind. It is mind "as it is", arrived at by allowing to come to a stop of its own accord. It is simply being enlightened mind in this moment. It is dropping process, technique and maps completely and finding enlightenment in this moment, if only temporarily. This is the essence of Zen. 

 

 

"so much that they refer to fellow humans as something 'other'"--Nungali.

Join with me then, Nungali, in applauding Stirling for writing the entire paragraph quoted above without a single use of the pronoun, "you". Everyone here knows that we're only talking to ourselves, right? Nobody else here, except the cat:

 

 

But seriously, I like it when we address ourselves.

"... arrived at by allowing the mind to come to a stop"--yes, but once a person is altogether "here", practice occurs and "the fundamental point" is actualized, right?

 

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.

(“Genjo Koan [Actualizing the Fundamental Point]”, tr. Kazuaki Tanahashi, included in his “Enlightenment Unfolds”)

 

 

Dogen continued:

 

When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point…

 

(ibid)
 

 

(Dogen was convinced he was talking to someone else--so sad.)

 

I would say the activity of the body can be entirely “reflex movement” occasioned by the placement of attention. To remain awake as the location of attention shifts and activity of the body takes place is “just to sit”.

The freedom of “your way at this moment” is touched on in daily living through “your place where you are”. That’s my take. Find the place, remain awake and find the way at this moment--practice occurs and the singular point of consciousness is actualized.

 

 

 

Edited Thursday at 02:42 AM by Mark Foote

[old3bob]

On 11/19/2025 at 4:38 PM, stirling said:

 

How so?

 

Aren't you throwing out the baby with the bathwater?  

 

How so? What danger? 

 

 nope,  just mean to say that lovely quotes won't really cut it when (or if) one is dangling somewhere, yet they do have a purpose not to be denied.  Btw if one does not know of the dangers then I'd say one will meet such sooner or later.   

Edited yesterday at 09:40 AM by old3bob

[Nungali]

That sounded rather  .........     ominous .  

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

"so much that they refer to fellow humans as something 'other'"--Nungali.

Join with me then, Nungali, in applauding Stirling for writing the entire paragraph quoted above without a single use of the pronoun, "you". Everyone here knows that we're only talking to ourselves, right? Nobody else here, except the cat:

 

No .    I  talk to myself but here I write for others to read  . 

 

 

5 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

But seriously, I like it when we address ourselves.

 

'We'  ? 

 

5 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

"... arrived at by allowing the mind to come to a stop"--yes, but once a person is altogether "here", practice occurs and "the fundamental point" is actualized, right?

 

I am of no mind about it .

 

5 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.

(“Genjo Koan [Actualizing the Fundamental Point]”, tr. Kazuaki Tanahashi, included in his “Enlightenment Unfolds”)

 

 

Dogen continued:

 

When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point…

 

(ibid)
 

 

(Dogen was convinced he was talking to someone else--so sad.)

 

I would say the activity of the body can be entirely “reflex movement” occasioned by the placement of attention. To remain awake as the location of attention shifts and activity of the body takes place is “just to sit”.

The freedom of “your way at this moment” is touched on in daily living through “your place where you are”. That’s my take. Find the place, remain awake and find the way at this moment--practice occurs and the singular point of consciousness is actualized.

 

 

 

 

I am in my way at this moment , I am in my place where I am  ( and live here daily ) . I found it decades ago and before that I have been awake since 1965 . The way at this moment moves towards dinner time . I shall practice my cooking . 

... and try to be single pointed conscious in doing it .

[SodaChanh]

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

 nope,  just mean to say that lovely quotes won't really cut it when one is dangling somewhere, yet they do have a purpose not to be denied.  Btw if one does not know of the dangers then I'd say one will meet such sooner or later.   

 

If one is intellectualising awakening Life will throw things at you to shake things up in your system. 

[SodaChanh]

One thing I have learned by sitting everyday doing nothing is to let the mind do its thing and just watch it by not reacting or following stories. 

 

Also being verbally quiet and let it air out until there is no reaction left in the body-mind. 

 

This is undoing the do-er which itself is an object in awareness. 

[Lairg]

10 hours ago, SodaChanh said:

One thing I have learned by sitting everyday doing nothing is to let the mind do its thing and just watch it by not reacting or following stories. 

 

The human needs to establish control of its mind.  Control and refinement of the mind is a critical step in achieving first stage enlightenment

 

Second stage enlightenment is based on control and refinement of the heart

 

 

 

 

Edited Thursday at 08:42 PM by Lairg

[stirling]

On 11/19/2025 at 5:10 PM, Mark Foote said:

"so much that they refer to fellow humans as something 'other'"--Nungali.

Join with me then, Nungali, in applauding Stirling for writing the entire paragraph quoted above without a single use of the pronoun, "you". Everyone here knows that we're only talking to ourselves, right? Nobody else here, except the cat:

 

 

But seriously, I like it when we address ourselves.

 

I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to go ahead and ignore this. 

 

On 11/19/2025 at 5:10 PM, Mark Foote said:

"... arrived at by allowing the mind to come to a stop"--yes, but once a person is altogether "here", practice occurs and "the fundamental point" is actualized, right?

 

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.

(“Genjo Koan [Actualizing the Fundamental Point]”, tr. Kazuaki Tanahashi, included in his “Enlightenment Unfolds”)

 

Do you ever find yourself somewhere you aren't?  

 

His point is, awakening always happens HERE and it happens NOW. The fundamental point is actualized (you are enlightened) when you wake up. Waking up happens all the time. When the mind is still, actualizing enlightenment happens... waking up happens! Dogen believed (correctly in my experience) that there IS no difference between the mind in stillness and enlightenment itself, only that the meditator may not realize this.

 

On 11/19/2025 at 5:10 PM, Mark Foote said:

To remain awake as the location of attention shifts and activity of the body takes place is “just to sit”.

 

The body? When the mind is "awake" and still, there is just sensation and awareness of it. There is no person sitting, no body, no specific place attention could find itself in experience. When the mind is deeply still:

 

Quote

"All forms arise as magic displays of color and light; a sky of rainbows, there and not there, beyond time, beyond direction, unborn and without end."
- H.E. Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

 

If this isn't a statement you can relate to you should check in with your teacher, and definitely double down on your meditation practice. If you are still in the standard 40 minute Soto sitting session, and have been meditating for a period of months or years, I would expect you should be sitting in this experience pretty frequently in the last 20 minutes or so of your practice.

 

On 11/19/2025 at 5:10 PM, Mark Foote said:

The freedom of “your way at this moment” is touched on in daily living through “your place where you are”. That’s my take. Find the place, remain awake and find the way at this moment--practice occurs and the singular point of consciousness is actualized.

 

You don't have to find a place. Stillness is HERE. Take a deep breath where you are in this moment, and let it gently out through your mouth. Allow stillness to rise up. It's here. There is no need for a special time, place, cushion, location... anything. It happens naturally in the dentists office, or the grocery store, or when you ride a bike, drive, play drums, etc. once you are paying attention and noticing. With a few months of meditation practice, you can begin to become adept at awakening any time you realize you have been "asleep", lost in your thinking mind. The eventual track of practice in most Mahayana practices is that you start to bring awake awareness to as many of your moments as possible. 

 

If you don't have a teacher feel free to PM me. _/\_

[liminal_luke]

On 19/11/2025 at 5:38 AM, old3bob said:

 

transcendental type ramblings and throwing the baby out with the bath water,  what the hell? 

 

political talk

transcendental type rambling

best not to comment

 

-- Haiku of the Day inspired by old3bob and stirling

Edited 17 hours ago by liminal_luke

[Cobie]

 

46 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

… best not to comment …

(I haven’t read this thread) oh go on, you know you want to. 

 

 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

political talk

transcendental type rambling

best not to comment

 

-- Haiku of the Day inspired by old3bob and stirling

 

A haiku without comment  is no haiku at all . 

[stirling]

On 11/19/2025 at 7:00 PM, old3bob said:

 nope,  just mean to say that lovely quotes won't really cut it when (or if) one is dangling somewhere, yet they do have a purpose not to be denied.  Btw if one does not know of the dangers then I'd say one will meet such sooner or later.   

 

Quote

In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few. - Shuryu Suzuki

 

This is precisely a quote about "don't know" mind, the topic of this thread. 

 

"Lovely quotes" are pointers to practice. When one is "dangling somewhere" the number of possibilities for escape are only limited where the thinking mind is concerned. Allowing the mind to become still is often what creates the space that precipitates the "aha" moment that solves the conundrum. 

 

This is my experience. I understand that you may feel that it wouldn't work out for you.

 

But... do YOU know the dangers? Why not share?

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

A haiku without comment  is no haiku at all . 

 

nature´s best haiku

a haiku without comment

autumn´s first snowfall

[Mark Foote]

 

Quote

 

The body? When the mind is "awake" and still, there is just sensation and awareness of it. There is no person sitting, no body, no specific place attention could find itself in experience. 
 

 

 

“Udayin, as an emerald jewel, of all good qualities, might be strung on a thread, blue-green or yellow or red or white or orange coloured; and a [person] with vision, having put it in [their] hand, might reflect; ‘this emerald jewel... is strung on a thread, blue-green... or orange-coloured’–even so, Udayin, a course has been pointed out by me for disciples, practising which disciples of mine know thus: This body of mine... is of a nature to be constantly rubbed away... and scattered, but this consciousness is fastened there, bound there....”

 

(MN 77, tr. Pali Text Society vol II p 217)

 

 

I read that to say that Gautama was aware of both his consciousness and his body. He described the above as one of the psychic insights he had while in the fourth concentration, one of the insights that lead up to his enlightenment (DN 2). 

 

'When the mind is "awake" and still, there is just sensation and awareness of it':

 

Sometimes when you think that you are doing zazen with an imperturbable mind, you ignore the body, but it is also necessary to have the opposite understanding at the same time. Your body is practicing zazen in imperturbability while your mind is moving.

 

(“Whole-Body Zazen”, Shunryu Suzuki; June 28, 1970, Tassajara [edited by Bill Redican])

 

 

The ease of reflex activity in the body occasioned by the place of occurrence of consciousness can remain constant, even if the location of consciousness shifts, provided the body is open to the free occurrence of consciousness.

 

The ease goes away, the activity occasioned by the place of occurrence of free consciousness remains.

 

 

 

Edited 13 hours ago by Mark Foote

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

 

“Udayin, as an emerald jewel, of all good qualities, might be strung on a thread, blue-green or yellow or red or white or orange coloured; and a [person] with vision, having put it in [their] hand, might reflect; ‘this emerald jewel... is strung on a thread, blue-green... or orange-coloured’–even so, Udayin, a course has been pointed out by me for disciples, practising which disciples of mine know thus: This body of mine... is of a nature to be constantly rubbed away... and scattered, but this consciousness is fastened there, bound there....”

 

(MN 77, tr. Pali Text Society vol II p 217)

 

 

I read that to say that Gautama was aware of both his consciousness and his body. He described the above as one of the psychic insights he had while in the fourth concentration, one of the insights that lead up to his enlightenment (DN 2).

 

Are we talking about Theravada Buddhism or Zen? To try to bridge or conflate the two is a mistake, they are fundamentally different approaches.

 

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

'When the mind is "awake" and still, there is just sensation and awareness of it':

 

Sometimes when you think that you are doing zazen with an imperturbable mind, you ignore the body, but it is also necessary to have the opposite understanding at the same time. Your body is practicing zazen in imperturbability while your mind is moving.

 

(“Whole-Body Zazen”, Shunryu Suzuki; June 28, 1970, Tassajara [edited by Bill Redican])

 

After some research I discovered a source for your quote:

 

https://shunryusuzuki2.com/Detail1?ID=368

 

You left a few things out I think are important to this quote. 

 

The full text is as follows:

 

Quote

You should sit zazen with your whole body; your spine, mouth, toes, mudra. Check on your posture during zazen. Each part of your body should practice zazen independently or separately; your toe should practice zazen independently, your mudra should practice zazen independently; your spine and your mouth should practice zazen independently. You should feel each part of your body doing zazen separately. Each part of your body should participate completely in zazen.

Check to see that each part of your body is doing zazen independently. This is also known as shikantaza. To think, “I am doing zazen” or “My body is doing zazen” is wrong understanding. It is a self-centered idea.

The mudra is especially important. You should not feel as if you are resting your mudra on the heel of your foot for your own convenience. Your mudra should be placed in its own position.

Don't move your legs for your own convenience. Your legs are practicing their own zazen independently and are completely involved in their own pain. They are doing zazen through pain. You should allow them to practice their own zazen. If you think you are practicing zazen, you are involved in some selfish, egotistical idea.

If you think that you have some difficulty in some part of your body, then the rest of the body should help the part that is in difficulty. You are not having difficulty with some part of your body, but the part of the body is having difficulty: for example, your mudra is having difficulty. Your whole body should help your mudra do zazen.

The entire universe is doing zazen in the same way that your body is doing zazen. When all parts of your body are practicing zazen, then that is how the whole universe practice zazen. Each mountain and each river is going and flowing independently. All parts of the universe are participating in their practice. The mountain practice independently. The river practices independently. Thus the whole universe practices independently.

When you see something, you may think that you are watching something else [outside yourself]. But, actually, you are watching your mudra or your toe. That is why zazen practice represents the whole universe. We should do zazen with this feeling in our practice. You should not say, “I practice zazen with my body.” It is not so.

Dogen Zenji says, “Water does not flow, but the bridge flows.” You may say that your mind is practicing zazen and ignore your body, the practice of your body. Sometimes when you think that you are doing zazen with an imperturbable mind, you ignore the body, but it is also necessary to have the opposite understanding at the same time. Your body is practicing zazen in imperturbability while your mind is moving. Your legs are practicing zazen with pain. Water is practicing zazen with movement, yet the water is still while flowing because flowing is its stillness, or its nature. The bridge is doing zazen without moving.

Let the water flow, as that is the water's' practice. Let the bridge stay and sit there, because that is the actual practice of the bridge. The bridge is practicing zazen; painful legs are practicing zazen; imperturbable zazen is practicing zazen. This is our practice. - Shuryu Suzuki

 

To break this down:

 

Each part of your body should participate completely in zazen. - See that the body is a field of sensations all comprised of stillness.
 

To think, “I am doing zazen” or “My body is doing zazen” is wrong understanding. It is a self-centered idea. -  No "self" does Zazen. Nothing separate does zazen. 

 

If you think you are practicing zazen, you are involved in some selfish, egotistical idea.- Zazen is the ultimate reality of things. No ego or "self-ish" part of you can practice it. 

 

The entire universe is doing zazen in the same way that your body is doing zazen. - As above, so below - the universe is awakened and doing zazen when and where you are. Actualization is always here, and now.

 

That is why zazen practice represents the whole universe. We should do zazen with this feeling in our practice. You should not say, “I practice zazen with my body.” It is not so. -  No-body is DOING zazen, zazen is what is always happening in this moment when we are awake.

 

Your body is practicing zazen in imperturbability while your mind is moving. Your legs are practicing zazen with pain. Water is practicing zazen with movement, yet the water is still while flowing because flowing is its stillness, or its nature. The bridge is doing zazen without moving. - The nature of reality is Zazen. Zazen happens with all possible conditions and movements perfectly because they are not separate from what Zazen IS.

 

...imperturbable zazen is practicing zazen. - ONLY Zazen practices zazen. No-self, thought, action, activity or separateness is present when Zazen is practiced.

 

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

 

The ease of reflex activity in the body occasioned by the place of occurrence of consciousness can remain constant, even if the location of consciousness shifts, provided the body is open to the free occurrence of consciousness.

 

The ease goes away, the activity occasioned by the place of occurrence of free consciousness remains.

 

No. Just Zazen being Zazen. Timeless, placeless, "self-less". Here/Now. 

 

-

 

If your interest is in proving your personal view of these practices, I can see how selective quoting might be advantageous. If your interest is in pulling back the veil, taking the entirety of a master's quotes might be more advantageous. _/\_

[Mark Foote]

yes, but...

 

Dogen Zenji says, “Water does not flow, but the bridge flows.” You may say that your mind is practicing zazen and ignore your body, the practice of your body. Sometimes when you think that you are doing zazen with an imperturbable mind, you ignore the body, but it is also necessary to have the opposite understanding at the same time. Your body is practicing zazen in imperturbability while your mind is moving. Your legs are practicing zazen with pain. Water is practicing zazen with movement, yet the water is still while flowing because flowing is its stillness, or its nature. The bridge is doing zazen without moving.

(“Whole-Body Zazen”, Shunryu Suzuki; June 28, 1970, Tassajara [edited by Bill Redican])

 

 

Suzuki is riffing on a poem by the 6th century C.E. Chinese Buddhist monk Fuxi:

 

The empty hand grasps the hoe handle
Walking along, I ride the ox
The ox crosses the wooden bridge
The bridge is flowing, the water is still

 

(“Zen’s Chinese Heritage”, tr. Andy Ferguson, p 2.)
 

 

I'm not sure what Suzuki was trying to say with "Water is practicing zazen with movement, yet the water is still while flowing because flowing is its stillness, or its nature" and "The bridge is doing zazen without moving", other than to say it's perfectly acceptable if the bridge is not flowing and the water is not still. I think it helps to look at his remarks in the context of the original poem.

 

Something I wrote about the bridge and the water, back in 2021:

 

The place where consciousness occurs suddenly becomes the source of action of the body, the place seeming to flow from moment to moment, while action based on volition or habit ceases entirely, or falls still.

 

 

Edited 10 hours ago by Mark Foote

[Lairg]

Brilliant quotes but is there any evidence?

 

 

[old3bob]

13 hours ago, stirling said:

 

 

This is precisely a quote about "don't know" mind, the topic of this thread. 

 

"Lovely quotes" are pointers to practice. When one is "dangling somewhere" the number of possibilities for escape are only limited where the thinking mind is concerned. Allowing the mind to become still is often what creates the space that precipitates the "aha" moment that solves the conundrum. 

 

This is my experience. I understand that you may feel that it wouldn't work out for you.

 

But... do YOU know the dangers? Why not share?

 

various people have been sharing some of "dangers" at this site for many years, I'd say that many have noticed such when brought up (now and then) and have sometimes offered advice, help or warnings as best they can.   

Edited 2 hours ago by old3bob

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

nature´s best haiku

a haiku without comment

autumn´s first snowfall

 

Haiku  is comment 

without 'comment' - no haiku

Do you get it yet ?