Yes-But-Mind vs. Don't-Know-Mind

[stirling]

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

thus a contrivance of non-contrivance or bypassing, 

 

How so?

 

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

many here could also state or quote all sorts of transcendent stuff but such doesn't really cut it...

 

Aren't you throwing out the baby with the bathwater?  

 

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

and which can be dangerous for new and even some advanced students.  

 

How so? What danger? 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

......

 

How so? What danger? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

'' Ahhhhh ..... that's  'better'  ?  ''

[stirling]

8 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

 

 

'' Ahhhhh ..... that's  'better'  ?  ''

 

Trepanation - it's what's good for the nation!

[Mark Foote]

9 hours ago, stirling said:

 

The topic of this thread is a Zen expression, "don't know mind", that is a conceptual description of the mind clear, still, and ready for anything, arrived at by allow the mind to come to a stop. It isn't a practice, concept, or religious belief  (a baby in the bath water) it is precisely the lack of ANY effort or contrivance of the mind. It is mind "as it is", arrived at by allowing to come to a stop of its own accord. It is simply being enlightened mind in this moment. It is dropping process, technique and maps completely and finding enlightenment in this moment, if only temporarily. This is the essence of Zen. 

 

 

"so much that they refer to fellow humans as something 'other'"--Nungali.

Join with me then, Nungali, in applauding Stirling for writing the entire paragraph quoted above without a single use of the pronoun, "you". Everyone here knows that we're only talking to ourselves, right? Nobody else here, except the cat:

 

 

But seriously, I like it when we address ourselves.

"... arrived at by allowing the mind to come to a stop"--yes, but once a person is altogether "here", practice occurs and "the fundamental point" is actualized, right?

 

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.

(“Genjo Koan [Actualizing the Fundamental Point]”, tr. Kazuaki Tanahashi, included in his “Enlightenment Unfolds”)

 

 

Dogen continued:

 

When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point…

 

(ibid)
 

 

(Dogen was convinced he was talking to someone else--so sad.)

 

I would say the activity of the body can be entirely “reflex movement” occasioned by the placement of attention. To remain awake as the location of attention shifts and activity of the body takes place is “just to sit”.

The freedom of “your way at this moment” is touched on in daily living through “your place where you are”. That’s my take. Find the place, remain awake and find the way at this moment--practice occurs and the singular point of consciousness is actualized.

 

 

 

Edited Thursday at 02:42 AM by Mark Foote

[old3bob]

On 11/19/2025 at 4:38 PM, stirling said:

 

How so?

 

Aren't you throwing out the baby with the bathwater?  

 

How so? What danger? 

 

 nope,  just mean to say that lovely quotes won't really cut it when (or if) one is dangling somewhere, yet they do have a purpose not to be denied.  Btw if one does not know of the dangers then I'd say one will meet such sooner or later.   

Edited 14 hours ago by old3bob

[Nungali]

That sounded rather  .........     ominous .  

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

"so much that they refer to fellow humans as something 'other'"--Nungali.

Join with me then, Nungali, in applauding Stirling for writing the entire paragraph quoted above without a single use of the pronoun, "you". Everyone here knows that we're only talking to ourselves, right? Nobody else here, except the cat:

 

No .    I  talk to myself but here I write for others to read  . 

 

 

5 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

But seriously, I like it when we address ourselves.

 

'We'  ? 

 

5 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

"... arrived at by allowing the mind to come to a stop"--yes, but once a person is altogether "here", practice occurs and "the fundamental point" is actualized, right?

 

I am of no mind about it .

 

5 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.

(“Genjo Koan [Actualizing the Fundamental Point]”, tr. Kazuaki Tanahashi, included in his “Enlightenment Unfolds”)

 

 

Dogen continued:

 

When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point…

 

(ibid)
 

 

(Dogen was convinced he was talking to someone else--so sad.)

 

I would say the activity of the body can be entirely “reflex movement” occasioned by the placement of attention. To remain awake as the location of attention shifts and activity of the body takes place is “just to sit”.

The freedom of “your way at this moment” is touched on in daily living through “your place where you are”. That’s my take. Find the place, remain awake and find the way at this moment--practice occurs and the singular point of consciousness is actualized.

 

 

 

 

I am in my way at this moment , I am in my place where I am  ( and live here daily ) . I found it decades ago and before that I have been awake since 1965 . The way at this moment moves towards dinner time . I shall practice my cooking . 

... and try to be single pointed conscious in doing it .

[SodaChanh]

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

 nope,  just mean to say that lovely quotes won't really cut it when one is dangling somewhere, yet they do have a purpose not to be denied.  Btw if one does not know of the dangers then I'd say one will meet such sooner or later.   

 

If one is intellectualising awakening Life will throw things at you to shake things up in your system. 

[SodaChanh]

One thing I have learned by sitting everyday doing nothing is to let the mind do its thing and just watch it by not reacting or following stories. 

 

Also being verbally quiet and let it air out until there is no reaction left in the body-mind. 

 

This is undoing the do-er which itself is an object in awareness. 

[Lairg]

10 hours ago, SodaChanh said:

One thing I have learned by sitting everyday doing nothing is to let the mind do its thing and just watch it by not reacting or following stories. 

 

The human needs to establish control of its mind.  Control and refinement of the mind is a critical step in achieving first stage enlightenment

 

Second stage enlightenment is based on control and refinement of the heart

 

 

 

 

Edited Thursday at 08:42 PM by Lairg

[stirling]

On 11/19/2025 at 5:10 PM, Mark Foote said:

"so much that they refer to fellow humans as something 'other'"--Nungali.

Join with me then, Nungali, in applauding Stirling for writing the entire paragraph quoted above without a single use of the pronoun, "you". Everyone here knows that we're only talking to ourselves, right? Nobody else here, except the cat:

 

 

But seriously, I like it when we address ourselves.

 

I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to go ahead and ignore this. 

 

On 11/19/2025 at 5:10 PM, Mark Foote said:

"... arrived at by allowing the mind to come to a stop"--yes, but once a person is altogether "here", practice occurs and "the fundamental point" is actualized, right?

 

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.

(“Genjo Koan [Actualizing the Fundamental Point]”, tr. Kazuaki Tanahashi, included in his “Enlightenment Unfolds”)

 

Do you ever find yourself somewhere you aren't?  

 

His point is, awakening always happens HERE and it happens NOW. The fundamental point is actualized (you are enlightened) when you wake up. Waking up happens all the time. When the mind is still, actualizing enlightenment happens... waking up happens! Dogen believed (correctly in my experience) that there IS no difference between the mind in stillness and enlightenment itself, only that the meditator may not realize this.

 

On 11/19/2025 at 5:10 PM, Mark Foote said:

To remain awake as the location of attention shifts and activity of the body takes place is “just to sit”.

 

The body? When the mind is "awake" and still, there is just sensation and awareness of it. There is no person sitting, no body, no specific place attention could find itself in experience. When the mind is deeply still:

 

Quote

"All forms arise as magic displays of color and light; a sky of rainbows, there and not there, beyond time, beyond direction, unborn and without end."
- H.E. Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

 

If this isn't a statement you can relate to you should check in with your teacher, and definitely double down on your meditation practice. If you are still in the standard 40 minute Soto sitting session, and have been meditating for a period of months or years, I would expect you should be sitting in this experience pretty frequently in the last 20 minutes or so of your practice.

 

On 11/19/2025 at 5:10 PM, Mark Foote said:

The freedom of “your way at this moment” is touched on in daily living through “your place where you are”. That’s my take. Find the place, remain awake and find the way at this moment--practice occurs and the singular point of consciousness is actualized.

 

You don't have to find a place. Stillness is HERE. Take a deep breath where you are in this moment, and let it gently out through your mouth. Allow stillness to rise up. It's here. There is no need for a special time, place, cushion, location... anything. It happens naturally in the dentists office, or the grocery store, or when you ride a bike, drive, play drums, etc. once you are paying attention and noticing. With a few months of meditation practice, you can begin to become adept at awakening any time you realize you have been "asleep", lost in your thinking mind. The eventual track of practice in most Mahayana practices is that you start to bring awake awareness to as many of your moments as possible. 

 

If you don't have a teacher feel free to PM me. _/\_

[liminal_luke]

On 19/11/2025 at 5:38 AM, old3bob said:

 

transcendental type ramblings and throwing the baby out with the bath water,  what the hell? 

 

political talk

transcendental type rambling

best not to comment

 

-- Haiku of the Day inspired by old3bob and stirling

Edited 4 hours ago by liminal_luke

[Cobie]

 

46 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

… best not to comment …

(I haven’t read this thread) oh go on, you know you want to. 

 

 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

political talk

transcendental type rambling

best not to comment

 

-- Haiku of the Day inspired by old3bob and stirling

 

A haiku without comment  is no haiku at all . 

[stirling]

On 11/19/2025 at 7:00 PM, old3bob said:

 nope,  just mean to say that lovely quotes won't really cut it when (or if) one is dangling somewhere, yet they do have a purpose not to be denied.  Btw if one does not know of the dangers then I'd say one will meet such sooner or later.   

 

Quote

In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few. - Shuryu Suzuki

 

This is precisely a quote about "don't know" mind, the topic of this thread. 

 

"Lovely quotes" are pointers to practice. When one is "dangling somewhere" the number of possibilities for escape are only limited where the thinking mind is concerned. Allowing the mind to become still is often what creates the space that precipitates the "aha" moment that solves the conundrum. 

 

This is my experience. I understand that you may feel that it wouldn't work out for you.

 

But... do YOU know the dangers? Why not share?

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

A haiku without comment  is no haiku at all . 

 

nature´s best haiku

a haiku without comment

autumn´s first snowfall

[Mark Foote]

 

Quote

 

The body? When the mind is "awake" and still, there is just sensation and awareness of it. There is no person sitting, no body, no specific place attention could find itself in experience. 
 

 

 

“Udayin, as an emerald jewel, of all good qualities, might be strung on a thread, blue-green or yellow or red or white or orange coloured; and a [person] with vision, having put it in [their] hand, might reflect; ‘this emerald jewel... is strung on a thread, blue-green... or orange-coloured’–even so, Udayin, a course has been pointed out by me for disciples, practising which disciples of mine know thus: This body of mine... is of a nature to be constantly rubbed away... and scattered, but this consciousness is fastened there, bound there....”

 

(MN 77, tr. Pali Text Society vol II p 217)

 

 

I read that to say that Gautama was aware of both his consciousness and his body. He described the above as one of the psychic insights he had while in the fourth concentration, one of the insights that lead up to his enlightenment (DN 2). 

 

'When the mind is "awake" and still, there is just sensation and awareness of it':

 

Sometimes when you think that you are doing zazen with an imperturbable mind, you ignore the body, but it is also necessary to have the opposite understanding at the same time. Your body is practicing zazen in imperturbability while your mind is moving.

 

(“Whole-Body Zazen”, Shunryu Suzuki; June 28, 1970, Tassajara [edited by Bill Redican])

 

 

Edited 2 minutes ago by Mark Foote