Lairg Posted Saturday at 03:04 AM On 9/23/2025 at 8:49 PM, Forestgreen said: the post heaven dantian should be so much more. In the Western tradition the standard human has 7 major dantian/chakras, 49 secondary and 343 tertiary. The tertiary entities are typically in the joints. As the human progresses in controlling the physical, emotional, mental, heart, and will energies it discards lower subplane material to have only first subplane material. This allows the internal intelligence of each dantian to consolidate into a more profound entity that relates to yet higher levels of Existence. The following stages include discarding even first subplane energies and using the Five Electricities (of the Hindu) to operate the various bodies. That results in the maintenance of the physical and psychological bodies only while convenient https://duckduckgo.com/?q="the+Five+Electricities"&atb=v499-7&ia=web Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Forestgreen Posted Saturday at 06:03 AM 2 hours ago, Lairg said: In the Western tradition the standard human has 7 major dantian/chakras, 49 secondary and 343 tertiary. Seems like a confusion between dantian, chakras, and Qi Men (energy gates). For me, these are not the same. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lairg Posted Saturday at 06:18 AM (edited) Perhaps you would like to explain the differences. It may well be that western humans have a different esoteric anatomy from the easterns. But I hardly think that the nature of the physical, emotional and mental planes varies across such a short distance. I certainly did not notice that in my travels Edited Saturday at 06:19 AM by Lairg Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Forestgreen Posted Saturday at 08:35 AM 2 hours ago, Lairg said: Perhaps you would like to explain the differences. I think that you can find threads about it here, especially about the general difference between dantian and chakra. And do you not yourself find a dissonance between the common three dantian model and your model with like 400? There are numerous energy gates in the daoist models, they are not in name or in function equalled with the three dantians. If you have a view that differs so from the common model, it is more reasonable that you argue for your point. I'd be interested to hear. Why do you think that the common nomenclature is wrong and should be changed? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lairg Posted Saturday at 08:58 AM 19 minutes ago, Forestgreen said: do you not yourself find a dissonance between the common three dantian model and your model with like 400? Not at all. The three dantian model easily fits as a subset of the 7 primary chakras I make direct observations of the subtle anatomy of humans with appropriate experiments. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Master Logray Posted Saturday at 08:58 AM 5 hours ago, Lairg said: In the Western tradition the standard human has 7 major dantian/chakras, 49 secondary and 343 tertiary. The tertiary entities are typically in the joints. Chakra is Indian, not western? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bindi Posted Saturday at 09:23 AM (edited) As far as I know and understand it, the lower dantian is filled with a subtle substance equivalent to subtle water, and the middle dantian is filled with this subtle water which undergoes an alchemical process as it rises. This subtle ‘water’ (Jing and qi) has nothing to do with chakras and their energies. If someone hasn’t filled a dantian you wouldn’t see anything there, if someone really can see the subtle energy body you’d see signs of a chakra, but you wouldn’t see any sign of a dantian, so you could assume that dantians either don’t exist or are the same as chakras. Edited Saturday at 09:47 AM by Bindi 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Forestgreen Posted Saturday at 09:56 AM 53 minutes ago, Lairg said: Not at all. The three dantian model easily fits as a subset of the 7 primary chakras If I walked among people practicing neigong or neidan, and I said that I would now focus on my dantian in the distal joint of my right small toe, what do you think the reaction to that statement would be? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lairg Posted Saturday at 09:58 AM (edited) 4 minutes ago, Forestgreen said: I said that I would now focus on my dantian in the distal joint of my right small toe, what do you think the reaction to that statement would be? No doubt some would think you foolish - but in many situations I have observed immediate reduction of pain by such practices Humans hate to be wrong. Better to lose relationships and health than admit being wrong for decades Edited Saturday at 10:01 AM by Lairg Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Forestgreen Posted Saturday at 10:27 AM 16 minutes ago, Lairg said: No doubt some would think you foolish - but in many situations I have observed immediate reduction of pain by such practices I practice a chinese buddhist system. It differs between energy gates, chakras, and dantian. In my experience, they feel different and have different functions. Of course, opening an energy gate might lead to reduction of pain, among other things. That is not the point. The point is that you called all these different energetic spaces/functions dantians. The difference between us in this discussion seems to be that I believe that terms have value, while you seems to argue that any term will do if there is just some general connection to the thing it describes. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MIchael80 Posted Saturday at 10:50 AM 1 hour ago, Lairg said: Not at all. The three dantian model easily fits as a subset of the 7 primary chakras I make direct observations of the subtle anatomy of humans with appropriate experiments. If you observe subtle anatomy then you know chakras are not elixir fields. To say they are the same is like saying the spine is the same as my lungs or my liver is the same as my heart. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- Posted Saturday at 11:06 AM 1 hour ago, Forestgreen said: If I walked among people practicing neigong or neidan, and I said that I would now focus on my dantian in the distal joint of my right small toe, what do you think the reaction to that statement would be? I would love to see a YouTube channel where you do this 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lairg Posted Saturday at 11:07 AM 37 minutes ago, Forestgreen said: you seems to argue that any term will do If there is one reality, it may be that different cultures have different namings 15 minutes ago, MIchael80 said: If you observe subtle anatomy then you know chakras are not elixir fields. I deal with intelligent energy fields - of which there are a variety In the current forming of this solar system, relationship with the intelligences is more important than namings 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- Posted Saturday at 11:08 AM 1 hour ago, Lairg said: Humans hate to be wrong. The irony here is amazing 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MIchael80 Posted Saturday at 12:05 PM (edited) 58 minutes ago, Lairg said: If there is one reality, it may be that different cultures have different namings I deal with intelligent energy fields - of which there are a variety In the current forming of this solar system, relationship with the intelligences is more important than namings This is just empty talk. There are different intelligences as you say... whatever name they have. Again, a liver is not a heart....however you would describe that thing we call heart and liver. Edited Saturday at 12:05 PM by MIchael80 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cobie Posted Saturday at 12:29 PM (edited) There's only one reality. All systems refer to this same reality. Chakras and dantien refer to the same things. On 19-5-2022 at 6:08 PM, Cobie said: I think Chakras can be useful for understanding Daoism. https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/50542-sink-chi-to-the-dantien-氣沈丹田/?do=findComment&comment=918953 Edited Saturday at 12:35 PM by Cobie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cobie Posted Saturday at 12:33 PM (edited) The truth is always the same everywhere and very simple. Ignoremuses with big egos make up things to look impressive; complicating systems to obscurity. The Hindu chakra system originally had only 3 chakras (the primary colours). The Chinese have 上, 中,and 下 丹田 On 21-5-2022 at 6:33 PM, Cobie said: Originally the Hindu chakra system had only 3 chakras (the primary colours). The Chinese have 上, 中,and 下 丹田 三清 san1 qing1 - three distinct [colours]link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Pure_Ones Edited Saturday at 12:46 PM by Cobie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MIchael80 Posted Saturday at 12:53 PM 17 minutes ago, Cobie said: There's only one reality. All systems refer to this same reality. Chakras and dantien refer to the same things. The one truth gives rise to the 10 000 things. Freeform who was highly refered here repeatedly stressed that this "everything is the same" notion is ignorance. Your subtle bodies have a lot of different layers...chakras, energy pathways at different densities, energy nodes, subtle organs.... they all have DIFFERENT functions. A heart does something different than a liver. A car is not a bycicle just because there are wheels on both of them. If you have problems with your heart you go to a doctor who is specialized on heart health and not to one who is specialized on eye health. Chakras are in the spine ... fields in the regions of the inner organs.... both have very different functions....what they do, with what substances they work...etc. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Forestgreen Posted Saturday at 12:57 PM (edited) 41 minutes ago, Cobie said: There's only one reality. All systems refer to this same reality. Chakras and dantien refer to the same things. Or, some of them are located in the same space. But feels different, have different functions. Edited Saturday at 01:12 PM by Forestgreen Added stuff. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Forestgreen Posted Saturday at 01:10 PM (edited) 1 hour ago, Cobie said: The truth is always the same everywhere and very simple. Reality is always the same, and very simple. When it cross over to manifest reality, it becomes layered and facetted. Quote Ignoremuses with big egos make up things to look impressive; complicating systems to obscurity. Tsk tsk tsk. People with knowledge know that function differs ( and that it is very practical in the beginning and intermediate stages) people with wisdom know that behind that is something else. Saying that things that have different functions are the same, muddles the path. But yes, some complicate systems in absurdum. I do not think that this discussion has gone in that direction (yet). On the other hand, some simplify systems in absurdum. Quote The Hindu chakra system originally had only 3 chakras (the primary colours). According to Christopher Wallis, at least one of the three chakra systems saw them all as red. But what you are saying here is that the three chakra system and the three dantian system is good, and people using 5, 7 or 12 chakras, or 400, are ignoremuses with big egos. I guess that using one channel is good, and exploring the energy body and finding several , with different functions, is also in the ignoremuses camp. Cool. Edited Saturday at 01:39 PM by Forestgreen Added stuff. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
forestofclarity Posted Saturday at 03:42 PM Interesting conversation. I actually tend to agree with how Christopher Wallis put it in his article. Chakras are not necessarily inherent IME, although the three main ones and the channels do seem to more universalized. The reason I say that is because practicing different chakra systems reveal different chakras, but some things appeared without priming. This makes sense in Buddhist/Tantric contexts and other models that assert the primacy of consciousness rather than matter. I would say that the energy in Buddhist Tantric systems feels different than the Daoist models so far. I think his statement about priming is key. Even the so-called "don't do anything" approaches use priming. They will say, "Well, the relaxed mind ought to settle into the dan tian, but don't make it happen." Well, why bother even mentioning it then? It is because the seed is being implanted, but they don't want the acquired mind messing with it since it often produces false experiences or facsimiles as opposed to the deeper, reality shaping "elements." https://medium.com/@hareesh_59037/the-real-story-on-the-chakras-b321fd662daa 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Master Logray Posted Saturday at 04:21 PM My understanding for Dantian is the place you select to cultivate. It is the "field" as per the meaning of the word. Where do you till your field and grow food? It is naturally the place with sunshine, water, rich soil. In human body, we would choose a single place with best potential like abundance of blood, oxygen, nerve cluster, endocrine glands and energies to be the "field". So it is the reason to coincide with the locations of Chakra. Different systems made the same choice. Yet there are schools that use Dantian as place to rest the mind only. In that case, it doesn't have to have relationship with the Charkra or the other Taoist favourable potential "fields". It could even be outside of the body. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Forestgreen Posted Saturday at 04:26 PM 1 minute ago, Master Logray said: It could even be outside of the body. Can you name a school that call an area outside the body "dantien"? I am familiar with using the space outside of the body, and the western neidan school does use that. Taoist Texts linked to an article about that a year or two ago. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Forestgreen Posted Saturday at 04:39 PM 52 minutes ago, forestofclarity said: It is because the seed is being implanted,/... .../ the deeper, reality shaping "elements." Some would say that we implant these. But do you feel that we implant the potential of a dantian or a chakra as well? Or that the method shapes the function of the energy centers? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Master Logray Posted Saturday at 04:42 PM 15 minutes ago, Forestgreen said: Can you name a school that call an area outside the body "dantien"? I am familiar with using the space outside of the body, and the western neidan school does use that. Taoist Texts linked to an article about that a year or two ago. The western and the central school use outside Dantian or multiple Dantians. The Fukien School uses the back as the Dantian location. And in different stages, people use different Dantian/locations. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites