Guru Yoga - Weird Religious Anachronism, or Essential for Realization?

[Robin]

As the title says.

 

One of my Dzogchen teachers recently told me explicitly that Guru Yoga is essential for practising Trekcho. She also said that she suspects I am confused abut the meaning of Guru Yoga. She may well be right.

 

What's the deal? It kind of gives me religious ick vibes, and I know there are modern interpretations (e.g. Candice Rinpoche, I think) who dispense with the cultural embellishments.

 

How do you relate to Guru Yoga? What role does it play in your practice? (None, a pre-meditation ritual, something else?)

If I can't swallow the Guru Yoga pill, should I look elsewhere for similar teaching relating to resting in open awareness (e.g. some Advaita stuff, or contemporary mindfulness methods)?

Curious to hear your thoughts. Thanks in advance.

[BigSkyDiamond]

i would like to hear from @steve on this.  He is my go-to person on this forum for questions about Dzogchen practice.

i have never heard of Guru Yoga but am curious to hear more.  

I do practice stillness silence spaciousness, as laid out in the book "Awakening the Luminous Mind" by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche.

 

Good topic for thread, i look forward to hearing more.

 

 

 

 

[Robin]

16 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

I do practice stillness silence spaciousness, as laid out in the book "Awakening the Luminous Mind" by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche

I love that guy. I did a retreat with him on the Sacred Warrior Seed Syllables. We started each session with guru yoga, and for some reason it didn't bother me much. If I was to practice devotion to a human guru, he'd be a strong candidate.

Thinking on, he seems to offer both approaches. Some of his online teachings just focus on the inner refuge via the three door which you mention.

I've heard Lama Lena say guru yoga is a combination of generating bodhicitta and taking refuge. 

Personally I'd like to just get on with meditation, with an internal attitude of goodwill to all beings and gratitude to my teachers. Perhaps that's enough. It may even qualify as guru yoga.

 

Colour me confused.

Edited August 6 by Robin
elaboration

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Robin said:

As the title says.

 

One of my Dzogchen teachers recently told me explicitly that Guru Yoga is essential for practising Trekcho. She also said that she suspects I am confused abut the meaning of Guru Yoga. She may well be right.

 

What's the deal? It kind of gives me religious ick vibes, and I know there are modern interpretations (e.g. Candice Rinpoche, I think) who dispense with the cultural embellishments.

 

How do you relate to Guru Yoga? What role does it play in your practice? (None, a pre-meditation ritual, something else?)

If I can't swallow the Guru Yoga pill, should I look elsewhere for similar teaching relating to resting in open awareness (e.g. some Advaita stuff, or contemporary mindfulness methods)?

Curious to hear your thoughts. Thanks in advance.

 

Yep I agree about the sense of religious ick ... but in the end I found that when I practiced this as part of the ngondro those kinds of reservations disappeared.  I don't practice Dzogchen so its slightly different but essentially there's a point in meditation where your own efforts are not enough and you draw on 'blessings' to get through.  The origin of the blessings in the first sense is your Lama (regarded as a Buddha) but in the end it is your Buddha-nature itself.

 

 

[forestofclarity]

11 hours ago, Robin said:

She also said that she suspects I am confused abut the meaning of Guru Yoga.

 

What do you think guru yoga is? It has different meaning according to the different yanas. 

[steve]

11 hours ago, Robin said:

As the title says.

 

One of my Dzogchen teachers recently told me explicitly that Guru Yoga is essential for practising Trekcho. She also said that she suspects I am confused abut the meaning of Guru Yoga. She may well be right.

 

Hopefully she will help clear up your confusion if you continue to study with her. It certainly is a foreign concept to most Westerners. Not only that, I think it is fairly sophisticated, esoteric, and abstruse. I think the meaning can be quite elusive and easily misunderstood.

 

Quote

 

What's the deal? It kind of gives me religious ick vibes, and I know there are modern interpretations (e.g. Candice Rinpoche, I think) who dispense with the cultural embellishments.

 

The first time I encountered it was at a Bön retreat with Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche. We also did a daily protector deity practice and both gave me religious ick vibes. It was my first ever retreat of any kind and first exposure to Bön or Buddhism. I considered leaving after the first day but resigned myself to give it a chance. By the end of that week and in the few days after returning home I had some very shocking and profound experiences and visions that made it clear this was the right practice for me and I’ve practiced it for the past 12 years.

 

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How do you relate to Guru Yoga? What role does it play in your practice? (None, a pre-meditation ritual, something else?)

 

My daily practice starts with some energetic and breathing practices, tsa lung and the 9 breathings of purification. Next I recite some prayers, practice guru yoga, and then rest in the nature of mind. I wrap it up with a dedication prayer.

 

Quote

If I can't swallow the Guru Yoga pill, should I look elsewhere for similar teaching relating to resting in open awareness (e.g. some Advaita stuff, or contemporary mindfulness methods)?

Curious to hear your thoughts. Thanks in advance.

 

I think it is a good exercise in openness and flexibility to consider giving new and strange things a try, with the exception of balut, that shit’s crazy.

 If we are too closed off we can miss a wonderful opportunity. On the other hand, if you try and can’t connect don’t force it. Tibetans with the right cultural background are going to expect, even need this sort of experience to make a deep connection. Westerners are going to be very hit or miss with this sort of thing. You can tell Tenzin Rinpoche has realized this by watching how he teaches. I’ve watched his method change over the past decade. I rarely see him formally guide guru yoga, except in very specific circumstances. Most times he will recite the prayer and then lead the sangha in a very simple mantra, A Om Hung which is a simplified and secularized form of guru yoga. Reciting A Om and Hung we are receiving the empowerment of the enlightened body, speech, and mind without having to embrace a foreign icon. 

 

10 hours ago, Robin said:

I love that guy. I did a retreat with him on the Sacred Warrior Seed Syllables. We started each session with guru yoga, and for some reason it didn't bother me much. If I was to practice devotion to a human guru, he'd be a strong candidate.

 

I love him too. He is a great teacher and human being, he really walks the walk. One very important point he emphasizes is to never practice guru yoga with your living teacher. This can set up an unhealthy relationship and dynamic. We mostly practice guru yoga with the 8th century dzogchen master Tapihritsa (the icon in my avatar) who represents all the masters and teachers who have helped you on the spiritual path, especially your root master and the one that introduced you to the nature of your own mind.

 

Quote

Thinking on, he seems to offer both approaches. Some of his online teachings just focus on the inner refuge via the three door which you mention.

 

He founded a secular program called the 3 Doors Academy that teaches the core of dzogchen with none of the religious trappings. I’ve been through that program as well and have seen amazing results and transformations in the participants. Of late, he rarely guides or teaches the full formal guru yoga practice but the more traditional Bön teachers still do. Tenzin Rinpoche’s teacher also taught ‘there is no dzogchen without guru yoga’ but Tenzin has allowed his experience of Western life and students to inform how he presents it.

 

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I've heard Lama Lena say guru yoga is a combination of generating bodhicitta and taking refuge. 

 

While these are both implicit in guru yoga, the traditional way in Bön is to go through guru yoga, refuge, and bodhicitta prayers in each practice session. 

 

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Personally I'd like to just get on with meditation, with an internal attitude of goodwill to all beings and gratitude to my teachers. Perhaps that's enough. It may even qualify as guru yoga.

 

If this works for you it is enough. Ultimately, guru yoga is to recognize and develop a deep and stable relationship with true nature of your being, the essence of your own mind. This is the secret guru. The outer guru is your human teacher and the inner guru is your yidam. The most important thing is to find something we can trust, be it the human teacher, the yidam, or the inner refuge, the nature of our own mind. Trust, dedication, and gratitude are the key and the fuel for connecting with the teachings, teachers, and most importantly the inner teacher.

 

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Colour me confused.

 

I think you’re asking great and important questions. Nothing more important than being true to your feelings and personal experience. Feel free to reply or PM if interested in further discussion.

Edited August 7 by steve

[BigSkyDiamond]

Good stuff Steve, thank you.

And good thread topic and comments.

 

I have a follow up question on a related topic and will start a different thread.

 

Edited August 7 by BigSkyDiamond

[SodaChanh]

VortexHealing has a Presence transmission which IMHO has the same quality of abiding in awareness / true nature. 

 

No religion required here just a number of paid courses. 

 

Once you have the transmission you can do it on your own and no teacher is required. 

 

I like human teachers though, at least sometimes 😊

[Miroku]

Guru yoga is indispensable in any vajrayana teaching. The whole path can be summarized into guruyoga.

 

I think you should share what you consider guruyoga to be and maybe Steve will be able to correct the assumptions.

 

In anycase, guruyoga is not about personality cult. You do not pray to your teacher's body or personality. That is why we should not pray to our physical form teachers until we see them the same as the Buddha, Guru Rinpoche, Milarepa or other fully enlightened being. Until you see them like that you use visualizstion of Guru Rinpoche, Vajradhara, etc. and unify all your teachers in their form as it represents and is the same as their enlightened mind.

 

And through offering,praying and praising you purify yourself, develop merit, develop devotion snd on basis of that will realize budhahood in this life or through the hook of compassion go to the purelands or at the very least be born in higher realms.

 

Guruyoga is for purification, guruyoga is for blessings, guruyoga dissolves hindrances and obstacles, guruyoga is the best phowa, guruyoga leads to pure lands.

 

It ofc has to be connected with and grounded in the basics like renunciation and bodhicitta. Without these, you are lost.

 

Sorry for my ramble heh.

Edited yesterday at 07:09 AM by Miroku

[Lairg]

On 8/7/2025 at 2:05 AM, Robin said:

If I was to practice devotion to a human guru

 

Devotion is natural in the Age of Pisces - that the planet is now leaving

 

 

[Mark Foote]

On 8/6/2025 at 7:16 AM, Robin said:

 

One of my Dzogchen teachers recently told me explicitly that Guru Yoga is essential for practising Trekcho. She also said that she suspects I am confused abut the meaning of Guru Yoga. She may well be right.

 

What's the deal? It kind of gives me religious ick vibes, and I know there are modern interpretations (e.g. Candice Rinpoche, I think) who dispense with the cultural embellishments.

 

How do you relate to Guru Yoga? What role does it play in your practice? (None, a pre-meditation ritual, something else?)

If I can't swallow the Guru Yoga pill, should I look elsewhere for similar teaching relating to resting in open awareness (e.g. some Advaita stuff, or contemporary mindfulness methods)?

Curious to hear your thoughts. Thanks in advance.

 

I've always been a Doubting Thomas, looking to stick my fingers in the spear holes to confirm the special guru status, you know.

I have met Zen teachers who did impress me mightily. Of course, in the Soto Zen tradition that came to Northern California in the form of Shunryu Suzuki, Kobun Chino Otogawa, and others, chants listing the names in the lineage are recited daily, and praise for Buddha, dharma, and sangha as well, but guru yoga I think not so much.

Gautama didn't become an other-worldly figure until a long time after his death, probably about the time they started making statues of him instead of just footprints.

I heard Kobun speak on a number of occasions, and sat with him through a part of a sesshin. As with most of the teachers who trained in Japan, I was genuinely impressed. American teachers, not so much. 

It's apparently my curse and my blessing to have to figure things out from books a lot. I'm ok with that. 

It's possible I picked up one thing from Kobun, but I'll never know. One day I decided I was going to try to be aware of every breath I took, all day long. Sometime in the early afternoon, I was sitting at a desk, and my awareness of my breathing got me up and walked me to the door of my room.

Maybe ten years later, I heard Kobun close a lecture at S. F. Zen Center with "you know, sometimes zazen gets up and walks around." Took me a long time to integrate that experience into my life.

What impressed me about the Japanese Zen teachers was that they seemed to have had a similar experience--again, not so much the American teachers. 

Didn't help me sit the lotus, though. Now I find Gautama's teachings in the Pali sermons and modern kinesiology to be my teachers, and I'm back to sitting 40's in my sloppy half-lotus. 

I've been trying to figure out what to say to a neighbor who wants to sit with me. Maybe I will tell him to observe where his mind goes, as he breathes in and as he breathes out. I’ll probably tell him that the longer he sits, the more interesting that gets, within limits.

 

Edited 10 hours ago by Mark Foote