Robin Posted 22 hours ago As the title says. One of my Dzogchen teachers recently told me explicitly that Guru Yoga is essential for practising Trekcho. She also said that she suspects I am confused abut the meaning of Guru Yoga. She may well be right. What's the deal? It kind of gives me religious ick vibes, and I know there are modern interpretations (e.g. Candice Rinpoche, I think) who dispense with the cultural embellishments. How do you relate to Guru Yoga? What role does it play in your practice? (None, a pre-meditation ritual, something else?) If I can't swallow the Guru Yoga pill, should I look elsewhere for similar teaching relating to resting in open awareness (e.g. some Advaita stuff, or contemporary mindfulness methods)? Curious to hear your thoughts. Thanks in advance. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigSkyDiamond Posted 21 hours ago i would like to hear from @steve on this. He is my go-to person on this forum for questions about Dzogchen practice. i have never heard of Guru Yoga but am curious to hear more. I do practice stillness silence spaciousness, as laid out in the book "Awakening the Luminous Mind" by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche. Good topic for thread, i look forward to hearing more. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robin Posted 21 hours ago (edited) 16 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said: I do practice stillness silence spaciousness, as laid out in the book "Awakening the Luminous Mind" by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche I love that guy. I did a retreat with him on the Sacred Warrior Seed Syllables. We started each session with guru yoga, and for some reason it didn't bother me much. If I was to practice devotion to a human guru, he'd be a strong candidate. Thinking on, he seems to offer both approaches. Some of his online teachings just focus on the inner refuge via the three door which you mention. I've heard Lama Lena say guru yoga is a combination of generating bodhicitta and taking refuge. Personally I'd like to just get on with meditation, with an internal attitude of goodwill to all beings and gratitude to my teachers. Perhaps that's enough. It may even qualify as guru yoga. Colour me confused. Edited 21 hours ago by Robin elaboration 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted 20 hours ago 1 hour ago, Robin said: As the title says. One of my Dzogchen teachers recently told me explicitly that Guru Yoga is essential for practising Trekcho. She also said that she suspects I am confused abut the meaning of Guru Yoga. She may well be right. What's the deal? It kind of gives me religious ick vibes, and I know there are modern interpretations (e.g. Candice Rinpoche, I think) who dispense with the cultural embellishments. How do you relate to Guru Yoga? What role does it play in your practice? (None, a pre-meditation ritual, something else?) If I can't swallow the Guru Yoga pill, should I look elsewhere for similar teaching relating to resting in open awareness (e.g. some Advaita stuff, or contemporary mindfulness methods)? Curious to hear your thoughts. Thanks in advance. Yep I agree about the sense of religious ick ... but in the end I found that when I practiced this as part of the ngondro those kinds of reservations disappeared. I don't practice Dzogchen so its slightly different but essentially there's a point in meditation where your own efforts are not enough and you draw on 'blessings' to get through. The origin of the blessings in the first sense is your Lama (regarded as a Buddha) but in the end it is your Buddha-nature itself. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
forestofclarity Posted 11 hours ago 11 hours ago, Robin said: She also said that she suspects I am confused abut the meaning of Guru Yoga. What do you think guru yoga is? It has different meaning according to the different yanas. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve Posted 11 hours ago (edited) 11 hours ago, Robin said: As the title says. One of my Dzogchen teachers recently told me explicitly that Guru Yoga is essential for practising Trekcho. She also said that she suspects I am confused abut the meaning of Guru Yoga. She may well be right. Hopefully she will help clear up your confusion if you continue to study with her. It certainly is a foreign concept to most Westerners. Not only that, I think it is fairly sophisticated, esoteric, and abstruse. I think the meaning can be quite elusive and easily misunderstood. Quote What's the deal? It kind of gives me religious ick vibes, and I know there are modern interpretations (e.g. Candice Rinpoche, I think) who dispense with the cultural embellishments. The first time I encountered it was at a Bön retreat with Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche. We also did a daily protector deity practice and both gave me religious ick vibes. It was my first ever retreat of any kind and first exposure to Bön or Buddhism. I considered leaving after the first day but resigned myself to give it a chance. By the end of that week and in the few days after returning home I had some very shocking and profound experiences and visions that made it clear this was the right practice for me and I’ve practiced it for the past 12 years. Quote How do you relate to Guru Yoga? What role does it play in your practice? (None, a pre-meditation ritual, something else?) My daily practice starts with some energetic and breathing practices, tsa lung and the 9 breathings of purification. Next I recite some prayers, practice guru yoga, and then rest in the nature of mind. I wrap it up with a dedication prayer. Quote If I can't swallow the Guru Yoga pill, should I look elsewhere for similar teaching relating to resting in open awareness (e.g. some Advaita stuff, or contemporary mindfulness methods)? Curious to hear your thoughts. Thanks in advance. I think it is a good exercise in openness and flexibility to consider giving new and strange things a try, with the exception of balut, that shit’s crazy. If we are too closed off we can miss a wonderful opportunity. On the other hand, if you try and can’t connect don’t force it. Tibetans with the right cultural background are going to expect, even need this sort of experience to make a deep connection. Westerners are going to be very hit or miss with this sort of thing. You can tell Tenzin Rinpoche has realized this by watching how he teaches. I’ve watched his method change over the past decade. I rarely see him formally guide guru yoga, except in very specific circumstances. Most times he will recite the prayer and then lead the sangha in a very simple mantra, A Om Hung which is a simplified and secularized form of guru yoga. Reciting A Om and Hung we are receiving the empowerment of the enlightened body, speech, and mind without having to embrace a foreign icon. 10 hours ago, Robin said: I love that guy. I did a retreat with him on the Sacred Warrior Seed Syllables. We started each session with guru yoga, and for some reason it didn't bother me much. If I was to practice devotion to a human guru, he'd be a strong candidate. I love him too. He is a great teacher and human being, he really walks the walk. One very important point he emphasizes is to never practice guru yoga with your living teacher. This can set up an unhealthy relationship and dynamic. We mostly practice guru yoga with the 8th century dzogchen master Tapihritsa (the icon in my avatar) who represents all the masters and teachers who have helped you on the spiritual path, especially your root master and the one that introduced you to the nature of your own mind. Quote Thinking on, he seems to offer both approaches. Some of his online teachings just focus on the inner refuge via the three door which you mention. He founded a secular program called the 3 Doors Academy that teaches the core of dzogchen with none of the religious trappings. I’ve been through that program as well and have seen amazing results and transformations in the participants. Of late, he rarely guides or teaches the full formal guru yoga practice but the more traditional Bön teachers still do. Tenzin Rinpoche’s teacher also taught ‘there is no dzogchen without guru yoga’ but Tenzin has allowed his experience of Western life and students to inform how he presents it. Quote I've heard Lama Lena say guru yoga is a combination of generating bodhicitta and taking refuge. While these are both implicit in guru yoga, the traditional way in Bön is to go through guru yoga, refuge, and bodhicitta prayers in each practice session. Quote Personally I'd like to just get on with meditation, with an internal attitude of goodwill to all beings and gratitude to my teachers. Perhaps that's enough. It may even qualify as guru yoga. If this works for you it is enough. Ultimately, guru yoga is to recognize and develop a deep and stable relationship with true nature of your being, the essence of your own mind. This is the secret guru. The outer guru is your human teacher and the inner guru is your yidam. The most important thing is to find something we can trust, be it the human teacher, the yidam, or the inner refuge, the nature of our own mind. Trust, dedication, and gratitude are the key and the fuel for connecting with the teachings, teachers, and most importantly the inner teacher. Quote Colour me confused. I think you’re asking great and important questions. Nothing more important than being true to your feelings and personal experience. Feel free to reply or PM if interested in further discussion. Edited 11 hours ago by steve 3 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigSkyDiamond Posted 10 hours ago (edited) Good stuff Steve, thank you. And good thread topic and comments. I have a follow up question on a related topic and will start a different thread. Edited 10 hours ago by BigSkyDiamond Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
