Meditation - how to?

[Surya]

In an earlier thread Stirling and I had a chat about meditation. I said that it didn’t work for me, and Apech replied that meditation is one of the worst thought subjects out there. So, that leads to the question: how is it done correctly? What even is it?

 

Ofc, I could (and have) googled it, but I’d much rather here what experienced bums has to say.

 

Thank you

[BigSkyDiamond]

Great topic Surya!  I look forward to hearing and reading responses.

[Neirong]

46 minutes ago, Surya said:

In an earlier thread Stirling and I had a chat about meditation. I said that it didn’t work for me, and Apech replied that meditation is one of the worst thought subjects out there. So, that leads to the question: how is it done correctly? What even is it?

 

Ofc, I could (and have) googled it, but I’d much rather here what experienced bums has to say.

 

Thank you

 

You cannot learn meditation like this. 
 

Plenty of people out there have mastered meditation art through wikiHow and ChatGPT, and are offering guidance on how to do it - quick and easy.

I have seen people claiming that anyone can master meditation, that it is easy, and requires nothing, and honestly, these claims sound full-scale retarded. Retardation and mental ailments are commonly met on online platforms and can be spread for free, unlike meditation skill that takes quite a bit of effort and investment. 

For a meditation skill to bloom, multiple of the requirements have to be met. 

• About 10 years of daily dedicated practice - that is the bare minimum. 
• A proper energy development. You must be thriving with an excess energy cultivated on every chakra.
• An awakening of upper mental bodies. That would also mean shedding your human (mortal) self. 
• A power transmission (probably many times that). I have no knowledge of anyone skilled doing that for free, that is comparable to blood transfusion. 
• An opened third eye.
• A legit tradition / lineage, with other "living" masters.

All of the above is still the baseline for meditation skill, which has no limits.
 

The public in general does not have any intention of finding or accepting the truth. Even talking about reality would cause adverse reactions. They usually want to bring reality to their expectations and meditation to their existing capabilities. If "I can do this," that means this is meditation.

[BigSkyDiamond]

I have found the book "Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle to be a wonderful and helpful guide, $10 on Amazon.  He also has many videos free on you tube, which give you a flavor.  I love his Zen stories  (I am partial to Zen) and he makes a serious subject quite funny.

 

 

[Gerard]

By attending a Vipassana retreat run by a Theravada Buddhist monastery. You'll be assigned a lay teacher, who'll have a minimum of ten years of experience. This is a mandatory baseline. 

 

Seated meditation is not the only way to practice meditation. Walking is a must and part of the practice 

 

Resources:

 

https://retreat-infos.de/Download/RFAE2010.pdf

 

https://www.dhamma.org/en-US/locations/directory
 

Good luck! 

**EDITED

 

Note: Here's some good advice from the abbot of the local Buddhist monastery close to where I live:

 

https://www.dhammagiri.net/post/tips-for-new-meditators

 

Maybe there is such a monastery in your location. Go have a look online. 

Edited yesterday at 07:23 AM by Gerard

[Gerard]

Note added. 

[Master Logray]

7 hours ago, Surya said:

In an earlier thread Stirling and I had a chat about meditation. I said that it didn’t work for me, and Apech replied that meditation is one of the worst thought subjects out there. So, that leads to the question: how is it done correctly? What even is it?

 

Ofc, I could (and have) googled it, but I’d much rather here what experienced bums has to say.

 

Thank you

 

There are many types of meditations, for many different purposes.   They range from sitting to walking to varied movements, from immobile to slow or even faster.   They may empty the mind yet some actively engage the conscious mind.   Some can be learnt in 10 minutes and the others could take 10 years to start off.   It is like walking.   Walking is merely a process for your purposes.

 

[BigSkyDiamond]

 

17 hours ago, Surya said:

about meditation. 

how is it done correctly? What even is it?

 

Allow yourself to wander around, read about, explore, learn about, hear about a variety of different traditions, types, methods.  Follow your intuition and try things out.  Observe what may or may not be a fit for you. When reading about a teacher or training or method or technique pay attention to your internal responses.  Are you seeing red flags or does it induce a sense of peace and well-being even reading about it.

 

For instance, is the tone bossy, or is it nurturing. Is it contentious, or calming.  Is the language abrasive and critical, or is it respectful and uplifting.  Is it force and control, or is it rest and observe.  Does it demand obedience and impose hierarchy, or are you recognized and valued.  How compatible is it with your belief system, world view, values, ethics, and path.  Does it include and value humor, and joy.   Is the focus and organizing principle magic and powers; or is it divinity and enlightenment.  Are "special powers" considered a goal to be pursued, or are they seen as a barrier and distraction. That sort of thing. 

 

What is the correct meditation?  The one that fits you best.   Trust your intuition.  Give yourself permission to try different things, to change if something feels off, and to let go of anything that does not have your best interests at heart.

 

What even is it?

a. one of my favorite answers I ever heard is that prayer is talking to God and meditation is listening to the reply.  

b. it does not have to look a certain way.  

c. it is paying attention to and becoming familiar with your inner world

d.  another favorite of mine:  observe and let it go.  be the sky, .  wispy clouds (thoughts and emotions) just float on by.

e.  drop into the core

f.  peace be still.  Be still and know that I AM.

g.  stillness, silence, spacious  (that is why my screen name is big sky, to keep that before me)

h.  pure awareness

 

Edited 19 hours ago by BigSkyDiamond

[Master Logray]

16 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

Allow yourself to wander around, read about, explore, learn about, hear about a variety of different traditions, types, methods.  Follow your intuition and try things out.  Observe what may or may not be a fit for you. 

 

What is the correct meditation?  The one that fits you best.   Trust your intuition.  Give your permission to try different things, to change if something feels off, and to let go of anything that does not have your best interests at heart.

 

Enjoy!

 

 

 

I would suggest caution.   Since there are many techniques, it is natural many of them could be against each other.   Mantra with the god's name is a good example.   He won't want to call wrongly.   Meditation works on the sub consciousness.  Choosing a wrong approach could make adopting future systems difficult or even dangerous.   I would still say define the purpose first is the most important.

[BigSkyDiamond]

7 hours ago, Gerard said:

Note: Here's some good advice from the abbot of the local Buddhist monastery close to where I live:

https://www.dhammagiri.net/post/tips-for-new-meditators

 

from article at link above, i love this part:  
 

"it's most important to enjoy the meditation.  Meditation should be fun. If you compare it to school, meditation is more like the recess, the break. It schouldn't be like the lessons which you don't enjoy, perhaps math, where you have to go whether you like it or not. So I would suggest to have a fun-approach. Because meditation can be some of the best fun."

 

yes yes yes

 

 

in my own tradition (chassidus) it is considered a commandment, an imperative, a requirement:

עבדו את ה' בשמחה   Ivdu es Hashem b’simcha (serve God with joy)

שמחה פורצת גדר   Simcha poretz Geder  (joy breaks through barriers)

 

Edited yesterday at 12:52 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[Cobie]

 

3 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

... is the tone bossy, or is it nurturing ...

 

Exactly. E.g. the end of DDJ ch. 51 (MWD A, Henricks): 

 

 7.  生 而 弗 有 也  (sheng1 er2 fu2 you3 ye3) [The Way] It gives birth to them but doesn't try to own them;

 8.  為 而 弗 志       (ch. 2 恃) 也 (wei4 zhi4)     It acts on their behalf but doesn't make them dependent;

 9.  長 而 勿 宰 也  (zhang3 wu4 zai3)              It matures them but doesn't rule them.              

10. 此 之 謂 玄 德  (ci3 wei4 xuan2 de2)         This we call Profound Virtue.

 

 

Edited yesterday at 01:15 PM by Cobie

[Tommy]

The topic of meditation has always been an interest of mine. However, I do not know what others know. My knowledge is limited to my experiences. For instance, I was never told what the purpose of sitting cross leg and setting the mind on a single task was meant to do. It was called meditation. But, according to some, there are different methods.

 

So, what is the method (i used) and what does it do (to my mind) and what is the purpose (to bring to the present)? I started with watching breath go in and come out. At first I counted the breaths. Then went simpler to just saying in on the in breath and out on the out breath. So what does that do? I was told that the mind is constantly active. Creating its own world. That meditation would relax the mind and make it more focused. Words like one pointed concentration were thrown around.

 

The practice has changed from watching breath to just sitting with the mind and listening to the quiet. Being present. Most of the time the narration of events or how one perceives the world is constantly creeping in. I just want to sit and be present in the quiet. To let go of this thinking mind.

 

One person told me that he figured his way to enlightenment. The way was to stop thoughts. But, the method I was taught was to let the thoughts go. Not to chase them nor follow them. Not to suppress them for that causes them to come up more frequently. So, I believe that the method is to release ourselves from the thinking mind. Not to stop thoughts. To experience our self. I may be delusional in my thinking. And all my efforts are for naught. But when I sit in the quiet, ... I do not want to leave, to stop. However, I do slump and fall over in sleep at times. I have given up on the purpose and where I am in terms of stages. 

 

I guess meditation is what one makes of it. The How-to, ... well that depends on who one listens to or how one is taught.

Edited yesterday at 01:09 PM by Tommy

[Cobie]

 

4 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

... Follow your intuition ...

 

Agreed.

 

Spoiler

then again - by the time you know what that is (your intuition), you don't need to meditate anymore. 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 01:35 PM by Cobie

[BigSkyDiamond]

27 minutes ago, Tommy said:

the method I was taught was to let the thoughts go. Not to chase them nor follow them. Not to suppress them for that causes them to come up more frequently. So, I believe that the method is to release ourselves from the thinking mind. Not to stop thoughts.

 

yes.  spot on, well said

 

 "what i resist persists"  what i push away (suppress) comes back even stronger and brings their friends (returns in greater intensity).

 

Edited yesterday at 01:33 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[old3bob]

 

the more advanced one can said to be then the more that basic humility is needed, since the higher one goes the further one can fall.

 

Btw. I'd say the internet is no place to be giving out certain methods, but giving out pointers to find  qualified teachers is another thing and meant to be helpful.

[BigSkyDiamond]

"Zen is turning a complicated mind into a simple mind.

If you have a simple mind, you can do everything and there is no hindrance anywhere."

 

     --- Korean Zen Master Seung Sahn

[Krenx]

34 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

"Zen is turning a complicated mind into a simple mind.

If you have a simple mind, you can do everything and there is no hindrance anywhere."

 

     --- Korean Zen Master Seung Sahn

 

What is the quality of a simple mind. What are its signs and features? What is its conditions and attitude towards phenomena? How does it react towards phenomena? Why do certain minds decide to act in one way instead of another way? 

 

How was this mind convinced to incline towards simplicity, instead of complications? What are the practices and gradual methods to tame this mind. What level is the restraint imposed on the wild mind, and what are the treats, rewards we offer/ bring awareness to for it to understand the benefits of being tamed and cooled down. For it to understand for itself.

 

Good questions to ask. 

 

The mind is a wild animal we picked up in this life, that does not know how to "be" on its own. It requires training, taming. It requires convincing. 

 

Like a wild animal, you begin with proper restraint. Not abuse. But healthy restraint with virtue. Virtue is very uncomfortable in the world, but gradually it beara fruits, unburdens the mind from many nonsense and potential bad results from bad action.  Sets up an opportunity/ chance for the mind to achieve neutral abiding due to the unburdened lifestyle, conduct. 

 

At the awareness of a neutral abiding, the mind is cooled, at rest, collected, powerful, and awaits instructions. You direct the mind to that quality, and show itself that reward, peacefulness, and proof that is the state of has been attempting to acquire, but could not on its own. Recognized you as its master.  

 

A tamed mind, abides its masters command. 

Edited 22 hours ago by Krenx

[stirling]

2 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

"Zen is turning a complicated mind into a simple mind.

If you have a simple mind, you can do everything and there is no hindrance anywhere."

 

     --- Korean Zen Master Seung Sahn

 

This!

 

Meditation is not taking on complicated intellectual ideas, instructions, actions, etc., it is DROPPING all of that and allowing mind to be what it actually is. Meditation is not a technique or practice, it is the moment that technique and practice fall away and there is stillness. It is actually something that the mind does naturally all the time and takes NO EFFORT. In fact, it is effort that impedes it.

 

Most people will stumble across stillness within a week or so of adopting a simple daily practice like watching the breath, or putting attention on an object. With someone experienced available to point out what stillness is, most will recognize it in that time and then eventually be able to drop the practice and just witness the action of mind for seconds at a time or more. Within a month or so there will be brief periods of resting the mind in stillness.

 

Continuing the practice of resting the mind in its own nature is transformative.

[liminal_luke]

6 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

"it's most important to enjoy the meditation.  Meditation should be fun. 

 

 

Should it?  I´m not sure but think this is a great question for discussion.  Do you have any perspective on this, @stirling?  My own experience is that meditation is definitely not fun.  I´ve sat for several vipassana retreats and each experience was worthwhile but decidedly not fun.  Sometimes I experienced physical discomfort, often I experienced emotional discomfort.  There was plenty of joy too but it mostly appeared after I´d faced difficulty.  

 

On the other hand, I think there´s great value in gentleness.  I´m something of a Type A personality, always wanting to do more and perform, and I bring these traits to my spiritual practice, not always a good thing.  I could probably stand to be more compassionate with myself and stop meditating when it gets hard.   Or maybe not???  

[Cobie]

 

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

… meditation is definitely not fun …

 

In my experience too, at times it’s not for the faint hearted. Aligning with the Dao/the water, initially caused fear and panick.

 

Quote

… stop meditating when it gets hard.   Or maybe not?

 

Eventually results come from sitting through it. But imo best to take it at a pace that’s comfortable, I listen to myself.

 

 

Edited 19 hours ago by Cobie

[BigSkyDiamond]

several decades ago, a counselor gave me a question to use on, well, just about anything in my life that i was doing, or trying to do, or thinking about doing or pushing myself to do.  Ask myself:  Is this a "want to" or a "should"

 

 

a related colorful quote and reminder for myself (not from the counselor, but from a recovery group):  Don't should on me.  This applies to others who may be shoulding on me; and also to myself if I am shoulding on myself.

 

Edited 18 hours ago by BigSkyDiamond

[Cobie]

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

Meditation is not taking on complicated intellectual ideas, instructions, actions, etc., it is DROPPING all of that and allowing mind to be what it actually is. Meditation is not a technique or practice, it is the moment that technique and practice fall away and there is stillness. It is actually something that the mind does naturally all the time and takes NO EFFORT. In fact, it is effort that impedes it. …

 

Yes, I agree.  

 

 

 

[Cobie]

Another thread about meditation being difficult at times: 

 

On 08/02/2024 at 11:34 PM, Apech said:

[I started meditating to relax and I ended up sobbing with rage - am I stange?]

Discuss. …

 

 

Edited 17 hours ago by Cobie

[Surya]

10 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

a. one of my favorite answers I ever heard is that prayer is talking to God and meditation is listening to the reply.  

«Contemplate is from Latin contemplatus, past participle of contemplari "to gaze attentively, observe," from the prefix com- "together" plus templum "temple."»

 

[stirling]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Should it?  I´m not sure but think this is a great question for discussion.  Do you have any perspective on this, @stirling?

 

Meditation is just being. When the mind is still it is no different from enlightened mind. It has no qualities. There is no "self" when the mind is stilled, so no-one to own those qualities.

 

Many students will get up from a meditation session and say that they feel so good... so relaxed.  They will ask themselves why the don't do it more often. Later when you ask them how they feel about it they say it is "difficult" or "a struggle". This is the thinking mind talking. Often a student will say, "I don't enjoy meditation. It is boring." My response is always, "If it is boring, there is an "I" there. Bring your mind back to stillness."

 

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

My own experience is that meditation is definitely not fun.  I´ve sat for several vipassana retreats and each experience was worthwhile but decidedly not fun.  Sometimes I experienced physical discomfort, often I experienced emotional discomfort.  There was plenty of joy too but it mostly appeared after I´d faced difficulty.

 

Depending on the technique, Vipassana is often a much more effortful and exhausting practice. Shamatha practices are much more about just "being", especially Zen and Dzogchen.

 

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

On the other hand, I think there´s great value in gentleness.  I´m something of a Type A personality, always wanting to do more and perform, and I bring these traits to my spiritual practice, not always a good thing.  I could probably stand to be more compassionate with myself and stop meditating when it gets hard.   Or maybe not???  

 

We could probably all use more compassion in our approach to life.

 

_/\_