A short essay on the subtle architecture of our inner life

[BigSkyDiamond]

7 minutes ago, Lairg said:

Test it for yourself

Western education systems are largely based on male thinking processes.  Women have to learn to think as men to succeed

It seems, however, that women often make the best ecosystem scientists.  Their awareness is encompassing and complex rather than one-pointed.

 

my religion teaches recognizes that women are closer to Divintiy than men are, and that it comes easier for women, it is more natural for women.   It is also the reason why men have more visible religious duties and responsibilities and roles than women do.  They have more homework because they have farther to go.   To reach the level women are already at.

Edited Monday at 10:19 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[Lairg]

3 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

women are closer to Divinity and that it comes easier for women, it is more natural for women.    

 

Agreed. 

 

At the denser levels this is because emotional and heart processes tend to support group processes - as compared to the one-pointedness of many men(tal) and will processes

 

 

Edited Monday at 10:19 PM by Lairg

[Bindi]

7 hours ago, Sahaja said:

I think the Tantric Saivites  describe it as removing coverings (malas) as opposed to identification with something new. This is reflected soteriologically as a reversal of course back up through the tattvas including fundamental coverings like time and space. We are all inherently Shiva/sakti who has obscured their  true nature with these coverings that result in our identification with the limited self reinforced by our individuated thoughts, emotions etc. Shiva/sakti allows this because they enjoy hiding and then rediscovering themselves (Lila-divine play).  I personally relate better to a proto Daoist model than the tantric saivite one but I think both have common tantric elements. 

Thanks for your excellent responses above 🙂 I’d be interested to hear more about your proto Daoist model and how it tracks with my chart above. I don’t personally follow any model, I merely notice similarities between various systems and what I discover by looking within. Hence my chart of all the systems that acknowledge this shiva/shakti true yin/true yang level. I’ve found deep resonances to various aspects of neidan and the TTC, just slightly more to the shiva/Shakti portrayals. Not being in any particular sect I also don’t know at this stage if shiva is the end point or if there is another end point, I could only guess at the moment, which can be a fun mental exercise but holds no real value. 

[BigSkyDiamond]

22 minutes ago, Lairg said:

Agreed. 

At the denser levels this is because emotional and heart processes tend to support group processes - as compared to the one-pointedness of many men(tal) and will processes

 

i don't see it so much as group processes.

i see it more as women innately being more tuned into their intuition.  and seeing sensing what is going on and bypassing and not being distracted by mental thought processes, or emotional feeling processes. It is my view that intuition is the still small voice of Divinity within us that we can tune in to directly.   Everyone has it but comes more naturally for women to be able to not only hear it, but also to be able to distinguish it from the mind that thinks, and the emotions that feel.  It is separate and distinct.

 

that is at the human level.  at the level of Divinity, at the level of the soul, there is no gender. 

 

Edited Monday at 10:41 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[BigSkyDiamond]

16 hours ago, Bindi said:

Head or heart first is an issue that isn’t addressed in the above chart. From my perspective, the head can stand for Shiva and the heart for Shakti, as these are their respective domains.

In the Head → heart → will trajectory, the personal mind is refined first, then the personal heart is aligned, and finally the higher will comes into play.

In the Heart → head → will trajectory, the emotional/heart field is purified first, which allows the mind to stabilise naturally, and only then does the higher will become active.

In my view, the sequence is crucial, in fact IMO it makes all the difference in the world.

 

regarding bold above, i am curious to hear more.  in what way is the sequence crucial?

thank you.

 

Edited Monday at 10:39 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[BigSkyDiamond]

27 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I’d be interested to hear more about your proto Daoist model 

 

me too, i second the motion.

 

what it brings to mind for me is making the distinction between the Tao Te Ching (which resonates deeply for me); and the religion of Daosim which later sprang up and developed (which does not resonate for me at all) including the alchemical practices such as neigong and neidan.

 

but i am curious to hear more on what is referenced above.

 

 

Edited Monday at 10:49 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[Bindi]

48 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

regarding bold above, i am curious to hear more.  in what way is the sequence crucial?

thank you.

 

For me, sequence matters because from my perspective the subtle body works like a complex factory, with each part depending on others being in place first. If the emotional stream (heart field) isn’t cleared first, higher development will be unstable, like building upper floors without a solid foundation.

 

Starting from the head or will can bring awakenings, but the energy structure will end up patchwork, with unused or mismatched pieces that don’t function as a whole.

 

If the goal is full subtle-body integration, heart-first isn’t optional. But if the sole aim is nondual realisation, the subtle body process isn’t part of the map, and that leads to a different focus and different outcome entirely.

[BigSkyDiamond]

11 minutes ago, Bindi said:

For me, sequence matters because from my perspective the subtle body works like a complex factory, with each part depending on others being in place first. If the emotional stream (heart field) isn’t cleared first, higher development will be unstable, like building upper floors without a solid foundation.

 

Starting from the head or will can bring awakenings, but the energy structure will end up patchwork, with unused or mismatched pieces that don’t function as a whole.

 

If the goal is full subtle-body integration, heart-first isn’t optional. But if the sole aim is nondual realisation, the subtle body process isn’t part of the map, and that leads to a different focus and different outcome entirely.

 

Thank you.  OK.

I don't know what a subtle body is (something like soul compared to physical body?  my infinite non-physical being compared to my finite physical body?) but i appreciate the information and following along with this discussion and all the contributions.

 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

my religion teaches recognizes that women are closer to Divintiy than men are, and that it comes easier for women, it is more natural for women.   It is also the reason why men have more visible religious duties and responsibilities and roles than women do.  They have more homework because they have farther to go.   To reach the level women are already at.

May I ask what your religion is?

[BigSkyDiamond]

2 minutes ago, Apech said:

May I ask what your religion is?

 

Sure thing!  I am an Orthodox Jew.  

[Bindi]

30 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

Sure thing!  I am an Orthodox Jew.  

Given this, the closest parallel for you could be kabbalistic/Jewish mysticism - 

 

My Subtle-Body Model	Kabbalistic / Jewish Mysticism Parallel
Physical vitality layer (foundation of energy system), Qi	Nefesh – animating life-force tied to the body and instincts.
Emotional / heart field (yin side) – must be cleared first for whole-system stability	Ruach – the emotional and moral dimension; bridge between body and higher soul. Needs refinement to channel higher light without distortion.
Higher mind / clarity (yang side) – stabilises naturally after Shakti / l higher emotional heart purification	Neshamah – the higher intellect and spiritual awareness; only functions properly when Ruach is balanced.
Higher will / unitive purpose – integrates and directs the whole system	Chayah – transcendent life-force; and Yechidah – oneness with the Divine.
Subtle-body purpose – Neidan’s Yang Shen, birth of a new subtle form	Tzelem and Kavod – divine image and spiritual “form” that manifest when all soul levels are aligned.

[BigSkyDiamond]

13 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Given this, the closest parallel for you could be kabbalistic/Jewish mysticism - 

 

thank you for the charts presented across many paths.

[BigSkyDiamond]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

But if the sole aim is nondual realisation, the subtle body process isn’t part of the map, and that leads to a different focus and different outcome entirely.

 

it sounds like in the frameworks presented overall,  then yes for me the nondual is where i fit.

Thank you.

 

(in my religion, the most important prayer we say everyday first thing upon waking, and last thing before going to sleep, and sing to our babies, and the first prayer we teach our children, and recite as we are dying, is a simple short six-word prayer and the last word translates to "is One.")

 

Edited Tuesday at 01:22 AM by BigSkyDiamond

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

it sounds like in the frameworks presented overall,  then yes for me the nondual is where i fit.

Thank you.

 

(in my religion, the most important prayer we say everyday first thing upon waking, and last thing before going to sleep, and sing to our babies, and the first prayer we teach our children, and recite as we are dying, is a simple short six-word prayer and the last word translates to "is One.")

 

Is your nondual take on this prayer (the Shema Yisrael?) a standard orthodox view? 

[BigSkyDiamond]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

Is your nondual take on this prayer (the Shema Yisrael?) a standard orthodox view? 

 

For Chassidus it is yes.  In addition to the "outer" meaning, Chassidus also looks at the "inner" meaning.  Yes it is the Shema.  During the Shema prayer we declare that everything is God.   The physical universe is a product of Divine consciousness.  The universe and everything in it flows from and is an outpicturing of Divinity. 

 

God is infinite, permanent, unchanging,  existing beyond time and space as an eternal absolute Being, the continuous source of all creation.  God is both transcendent ("out there") and also immanent ("in here" within me).  There is no place where God is not.    

אין עוד מלבדו  (ein od milvado)  There is nothing other than God

 

Edited Tuesday at 03:14 AM by BigSkyDiamond

[BigSkyDiamond]

7 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

my religion teaches recognizes that women are closer to Divintiy than men are, and that it comes easier for women, it is more natural for women.   It is also the reason why men have more visible religious duties and responsibilities and roles than women do.  They have more homework because they have farther to go.   To reach the level women are already at.

 

it also teaches another reason why men are given a greater amount of religious duties, obligations, tasks, and responsibilities than women.  Because keeping them busy and occupied with more obligations means they are less likely to get in trouble.  I remember when the rabbi was explaining this to me i must have look surprised, I had never heard such a thing.   It just seemed so novel to me, and at the same time very practical.  He went on to say "look at the prisons, it is the men causing trouble."  

 

I looked it up:  Men commit 90% of violent crimes (Sweden , 2013 data); federal prison population is 93% men (USA, 2017 data)

 

Edited Tuesday at 05:38 AM by BigSkyDiamond

[Bindi]

While men may often lean toward mind dominance and women toward heart dominance, this doesn’t alter the fundamental requirements of the subtle energy body. The sequencing is structural, not gender based. Just as you wouldn’t begin building the second story of a house before laying a solid foundation, regardless of whether a woman or a man will live in it, the subtle body needs its base layers in place before higher functions can be developed without distortion. Of course, if the aim is purely nondual realisation and not the cultivation of the subtle energy body, this sequencing is not relevant, but I bring it up here because this thread is fundamentally about head/male/shiva and heart/female/shakti energies. 

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

oh, OK, thank you.  That makes sense.

On a different forum i read a lot from someone who posted there, that is where i learned the bit i do know about Hindusim.  She talked a lot about Brahman, Atman, Advaita.  So it sounds like as you say, a different flavor, a different hierarchy.

 

Thank you.

 

It goes much further ;   actually Hinduism is a very collective umbrella term .   Much like 'Australian Indigenous religion ..... s    and also culture ..... s  . 

 

One difference I note is  argument or debate is usually  political . Not theological . I have never met a 'Hindu "  who rants at another Hindu  that HIS God is the real God and the other's God  a false God  . And certainly not in Aboriginal religions . 

 

I suspected , like the way deity  has been conceived through the  eras and locations  in  ancient Egypt , that no one view is  in itself right or wrong but each is a part of the puzzle which shows a closer understanding of the larger  reality .  I ran this by my (indigenous ) teacher  and he  enthusiastically affirmed that is exactly what ( at least )  they   do . and how they conceive it . 

 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

it also teaches another reason why men are given a greater amount of religious duties, obligations, tasks, and responsibilities than women.  Because keeping them busy and occupied with more obligations means they are less likely to get in trouble.  I remember when the rabbi was explaining this to me i must have look surprised, I had never heard such a thing.

 

He sounds exactly like my Jewish friend     ... Claiming all sorts of 'strange stuff'  ... then he shows me how its valid , from texts .  

 

Rabbis often have  a certain '  unique logic and reason'   , often interesting to converse with .

 

( Do you know 'the one' about the Rabbi, the Aussie and the 'magic cheese sandwich '  ?   )  

 

( I am often his  'shabbos goy'       -  " Would you like a coffee ?  Then press the button on the coffee machine for me  .... make two while you at it  .  "    )  

 

2 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

   It just seemed so novel to me, and at the same time very practical.  He went on to say "look at the prisons, it is the men causing trouble."  

 

I looked it up:  Men commit 90% of violent crimes (Sweden , 2013 data); federal prison population is 93% men (USA, 2017 data)

 

 

Well, I doubt BIndi nor I can support that one !  That would mean black people here ( and I think in USA too ! ) would be 'causing all the trouble  '    ... I'd hit your Rabbi with that one . 

 

Rabbi  :  "  Aha !  But the statistics  show  there are more whites males in USA prison than black people  ." 

 

Me : "  Yes but   the statistics also show 29% of black Americans are likely to go to prison at some stage , while for white Americans its around 5%  ."

 

Rabbi ;  " Would you like a coffee ?" 

 

 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

While men may often lean toward mind dominance and women toward heart dominance, this doesn’t alter the fundamental requirements of the subtle energy body. The sequencing is structural, not gender based. Just as you wouldn’t begin building the second story of a house before laying a solid foundation, regardless of whether a woman or a man will live in it, the subtle body needs its base layers in place before higher functions can be developed without distortion. Of course, if the aim is purely nondual realisation and not the cultivation of the subtle energy body, this sequencing is not relevant, but I bring it up here because this thread is fundamentally about head/male/shiva and heart/female/shakti energies. 

 

 

Its very pronounced in the  magical systems here ..... Men's  'business' and 'women's business '  and never the two should meet .... no spying on ceremony !  Mind your own business !  

 

We have a few traditional stories like that .... one girl spied ... what a story .... and that's how we got the  stars up there  ( points at what we call Scorpio  ) ... there is the girl and the boy out the front ( head of scorpion ) , those two, they are bundi , boomerang  thrown at them , the next two, over threr , they are the circle guardians chasing the law breakers ..." 

 

of course they don't see or relate the asterism to a scorpion , but their story is FULL of 'scorpionic'  themes  , just like we attribute to Scorpio .... curious that . 

 

But anyway , that big dipping head in the sky is a reminder  .... don't break law! Don't spy on ceremony ! 

 

[BigSkyDiamond]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 That would mean black people here ( and I think in USA too ! ) would be 'causing all the trouble  '    ... I'd hit your Rabbi with that one . 

 

No, becauase the discussion occurred in the context of religious roles duties tasks obligations and responsibilities. So race is not relevant, because it is not a determining factor, nothing is race-specific.  Gender is a factor, race is not.  The context matters.

 

Edited Tuesday at 09:24 AM by BigSkyDiamond

[Cobie]

 

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

… their story is FULL of 'scorpionic'  themes  , just like we attribute to Scorpio .... curious that . 

Yes curious.  I had wondered before about the character 萬 (wan4) the myriad [as in ‘the 1, 2, 3, the myriad’ DDJ 42].

The glyph origin is ‘scorpion’ and it also had the meaning of “religious dance; sorcery”.

 

萬 Oracle bone script:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E8%90%AC 

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 02:48 PM by Cobie

[Sahaja]

17 hours ago, Bindi said:

Thanks for your excellent responses above 🙂 I’d be interested to hear more about your proto Daoist model and how it tracks with my chart above. I don’t personally follow any model, I merely notice similarities between various systems and what I discover by looking within. Hence my chart of all the systems that acknowledge this shiva/shakti true yin/true yang level. I’ve found deep resonances to various aspects of neidan and the TTC, just slightly more to the shiva/Shakti portrayals. Not being in any particular sect I also don’t know at this stage if shiva is the end point or if there is another end point, I could only guess at the moment, which can be a fun mental exercise but holds no real value. 

I had a teacher once that said the map is not the territory. I think what he meant was there was risk in getting too reliant on maps of reality because they are not the same as reality. The maps can give you a useful framework but your direct experience will show you things you didn’t see on the map, some real some not real. Your success or failure in traversing this ground will be determined by your discernment (and grace)
 

It’s clear to me when I look at the various maps you laid out that they have some commonalities and some differences. The commonalities may be due to a shared underlying reality related to the nature of spirit/divinity and to the nature of human beings. There are also differences that are significant that aren’t always clear from just a cursory reading. For example what is meant by  the name “Shiva”.  I am not a big fan of comparisons across traditions as they tend to gloss over the depths/nuances of these differences in favor of the commonalities. This can result in both dilution in the richness of individual traditions and unnecessary tensions/conflicts over defense of their perceived uniqueness. Daoists talk about this issue as one intrinsic to “naming things”. 

 

I’ve used different maps from different traditions at different points of my life depending on what teacher I was learning from - so they aren’t mine, I am just borrowing them from the teacher to help me on the journey. However the writings of the proto Daoists like Zhuangzhi , Liezi and the Nei Yeh have held a particular resonance for me. Their sense of humor and humility about the nature of humans I find continually refreshing and insightful. 
 

 

 

 

[BigSkyDiamond]

those are really good points (post just above).  Also my understanding or interpretation of an element from the "outside" of a path, can be very different (or way off base) from what that element means or how it is used "inside" the path.  Context determines meaning.  When i lift it out of one context and plug it into another context there is typically a distortion.  This is compounded even more when there are translations across a different language because that too changes the meaning.  Just as there are words and meanings and concepts which don't even exist in some languages, so too there are elements in a path that do not exist in other paths.  And sacred scripture by nature carries multiple meanings for a single word or element or teaching.  By its vary nature there is never just a single or simple meaning, but there are stacked meanings (which are often contradictory) which intentionally gives a richness and depth.

 

Also for the same passage, it may mean something very different to me when i first read it than when i read it one or two or ten years later.  My own view (and how I experience it) is that sacred texts (holy books) carry and deliver a transmission to the reader.   All books do this to a certain extent, but it can be more pronounced for sacred texts due to the subject matter. . 

 

Edited Tuesday at 04:24 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

No, becauase the discussion occurred in the context of religious roles duties tasks obligations and responsibilities. So race is not relevant, because it is not a determining factor, nothing is race-specific.  Gender is a factor, race is not.  The context matters.

 

 

yes.... I was just referring to the logical point he made about  prisoner's  sex  and what conclusion he drew from that .  'Race' is a false construct  ... that's why I referred to skin color .. 

 

besides ... we all know    that women are more advanced       

 

I used to read Tarot publicly  and  I would also speak at  certain 'pagan' events .  One thing I would outline to them , and in readings where the issue came up , was this idea of the 3 stages of womanhood .  Of course only a man like me would comment on that    

 

Traditionally it is said to be ; maiden mother crone  ... like the Moon phases .....  rubbish !    The Moon as FOUR phases !  (I would say  to them during a reading )   ; It should be maiden mother pirate elder . 

"Pirate ? ! "

" Sure  !  You wanted to know what was next in life for you ; the kids are grown up and left home , you have left hubby behind as now you have more time to yourself you are on a spiritual journey ... and he just does not get it !   Are you ready to be an old woman crone yet ? NO !  You still have a lot of life to live and vitality and now ... its YOUR time ... get out there,  be, free , on the high seas ... plunder ;  Fun ... business .... men's hearts !     Hoist the Jolly Roger  !  "

 

Once a woman  in the little  audience  during a 'pagan conference ' heard that and asked ,  What about the male stages of life ?" 

 

" Well, there is child , youth / boy  ...... ummmmm  ,  youth/  boy  ...... and then .......    youth boy  ... and then   mmmmmmmh  .... mmman?     .....   Man ?   .......  ahhhhh  Man !   ..... Father  .... although Father can come anywhere within the preceding  ,   eventually ,  Elder. "