The fabric of the 10,000 things

[dwai]

Was in the park yesterday morning, doing dao gong and Tai chi with my friends. We’ve been practicing at this specific park for close to 10 years now, normally from late spring through fall, as winters in Chicago are brutal. 
 

As we were doing the meditation, I started to see what seemed like cobwebs of white light all over, all around us. It is interesting it was visible with both eyes open and closed.

 

Very interesting phenomenon, thought I’d drop this pebble in the proverbial pond and see what happens

[Cobie]

Wow, that’s wonderful.

 

 

Reminds me of Alex Grey, e.g. this painting. 

 

 

Edited May 26 by Cobie

[Gerard]

Yes that's Qi, the underlying web that keeps everything interconnected, and up and running. 

 

Good stuff.

 

So, no practice in Chicago's snowfields?

 

 

 

 

[dwai]

20 minutes ago, Gerard said:

So, no practice in Chicago's snowfields?

Not in the snow  

[Nungali]

Photo  please  .  

 

 

 

  

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, Cobie said:

Wow, that’s wonderful.

 

 

Reminds me of Alex Grey, e.g. this painting. 

 

 

 

A 'Yin-Yangy ' version 

 

 

 

Net of Being by Alex Grey

[Cobie]

 

8 hours ago, Nungali said:

... Net of Being by Alex Grey 

 

Reminiscent of 木 (mu4) wood, tree. 木 represents a tree with roots, trunk, and branches.

 

Derived from  oracle bone script.

 

 

Edited May 27 by Cobie

[Vajra Fist]

Indra's net

[dwai]

This is what it sort of looked like 

[stirling]

36 minutes ago, dwai said:

This is what it sort of looked like 

 

Yes, I have seen this a few times in my life. Once, age 19 in the broad daylight while simply walking across my college campus this appeared slowly as very gossamer prismatic lines like vertices, seemingly stretching between every object you could name or call a separate "thing". It came with it the ability to seemingly know anything I wanted about those objects, but it was actually impossible to ask any questions, which I now realize, was because this visualization (for want of a better word) was only a relative representation of the deeper reality of unity/"emptiness". 

 

The next time I saw it, I had taken a low dose of MDMA and out walking by the ocean in the evening. It was most visible in the connections of the stars to each other. 

 

I would agree that this experience is where our contemporary stories of "Indra's Net" come from, and that such experiences are universally available, though still rare or possibly commonly dismissed as hallucination or mental illness. 

 

In the Buddhist model I would put this phenomena (like most "supernatural" events) squarely in the "Arising and Passing" category of the "Progress of Insight". These phenomena don't MEAN anything, except that your practice is exceptionally deep in the moment you are experiencing it, IMHO.  That's good!

 

More on the "Arising and Passing":

 

https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight/30-the-progress-of-insight/4-the-arising-and-passing-away/

 

More on the Progress of Insight (this is unlikely to benefit most casual practitioners):

 

https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight/30-the-progress-of-insight/

 

 

I include the links above NOT because the "Progress of Insight" or "Arising and Passing" represent that ABSOLUTE TRUTH about these experiences and are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT about what they are, but because, as a description and working theory it expresses much of what I would say about this phenomena. Like ALL theories, religions, and stories about phenomena there just ISN'T a right answer about what they are, except to say that they aren't the full depth of understanding because they are impermanent and they DON'T mean anything specific except that you are "getting there". Of course, such things continue to show up even after you believe you have "arrived".

(Hint: You never completely arrive! There is nowhere to GO! Just this is IT!   )

 

Some other experiences I have had that fit this category:

 

A whispy "fog" (seen with eyes open OR closed) that starts to form and not quite envelope the visual boundaries seeming to come from behind, and then almost closing the visual space. This usually happens when concentration/absorbtion is very deep but not concentrated on a particular object, as evidenced by intense "Nada Sound"/Celestial Chorus/Ear Ringing. 

 

A nice discussion on this predating my time here:

 

A toroidal distortion in the shape of visual space, where the horizon is slightly curved to the right and left, and the sky and ground are turned under slightly. 

 

 

The perspective seems to be from the empty center. The same conditions apply - deep concentration, no object, Nada Sound.

 

I first saw this during my "awakening" when the first taste of center-less, complete "no-self" occurred with it. I have seen it a couple of other times since then - once on the cushion and a few times when walking in meditation in the forest. It has no "meaning" really, beyond being a representation of the underlying non-dual reality. My teacher says that this one (to paraphrase), "Probably represents the limit at which "emptiness" can be seen by "beings" "with remainder". 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_(Buddhism)#Nirvana_with_and_without_remainder_of_fuel

 

[dwai]

Ditto on the fog (I saw this on a regular basis during early days after getting initiated by my teacher), and the torroid (during practice, especially circulating the energy) 

[Cobie]

I cannot see this web, but it does resonate with how I feel inside.  
 

 

Edited May 27 by Cobie

[Nungali]

'Between the stars'  is the relevant phrase for me here .    Where as  'earth based' energies  I have seen differently (on rare occasions ) including in the day sky  (more like it is depicted in some traditional Aboriginal art  depicting the subtle energy  that is  the connection between places) . But with the stars , more like in the picture above . 

 

Practice on the stars Coby  ... but relax, its not something to be forced . 

[Nungali]

Cant post image    

Edited Tuesday at 11:06 PM by Nungali

[Nungali]

 

 

Damn !   Its a good one . 

 

( How come it shows in the post box before its posted but will show when posted    

Edited Tuesday at 11:08 PM by Nungali

[doc benway]

The fabric of the 10,000 things is empty, otherwise there would be no opportunity for the infinite display of the 10,000 things to arise. But that emptiness is elucidated by awareness and the union of that space and awareness is the lively and energetic display we label the 10,000 things. I like the metaphor of space, awareness, and warmth that my teacher uses. 

We can have so many kinds of meditative or lucid experiences and visions, they are innumerable.

And these visions reflect our own conditions as much, or more so, than anything else. 

This is one of the lessons of the dark retreat associated with dzogchen practitioners in the Bön and Nyingma traditions, as well as practices like sky and sun gazing.

 

[Sherman Krebbs]

 

3 hours ago, doc benway said:

The fabric of the 10,000 things is empty, otherwise there would be no opportunity for the infinite display of the 10,000 things to arise.

 

How is one to regard meditative insight views then? Northern lights, ripples like a pebble thrown in still water, stings of beads. Do they have meaning or significance or just an aberration of the mind, or perhaps just light adaptation of the eye?

[doc benway]

28 minutes ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

 

 

How is one to regard meditative insight views then? Northern lights, ripples like a pebble thrown in still water, stings of beads. Do they have meaning or significance or just an aberration of the mind, or perhaps just light adaptation of the eye?

 

"Meditative insight views" could mean different things for me but hopefully I'll address your question. 

 

There are visions like webs of light, Northern lights, ripples, distortions of time and space, demons, yidams, dakinis, immortals, OBE's, seeing across distances of time and space, so many different experiences! These things do not have meaning or significance in and of themselves. They are considered, in dzogchen terms, the spontaneous display of the base, nothing aberrant about it, simply the natural arising of the 10,000 things in the openness of awareness. It is our minds that add the meaning and significance, those minds being a product of conditioning and circumstances. So our eyes play a role, our brain, atmospheric conditions, our emotions and memories, expectations,  you name it; there are countless interconnected variables that give rise to our life and meditative experiences. Such experiences can elicit aversion, attachment, confusion and other reactions and come easily become obstacles when we engage with them.

 

It is said in Bön dzogchen teachings that, and I paraphrase, 'When the sounds, lights, and rays encounter the mind of the practitioner, they are impure because they reflect the mind which has the nature of samsara. When they encounter the mind's nature (ie. the practitioner resting in the nature of mind, the non-dual state), they liberate spontaneously and remain pure, reflecting the nature of liberation.' Pure and impure in this context simply refer to whether we grasp or allow the experience of visions to spontaneously liberate, they are not judgmental in a moral sense.

 

Then there are what I would call insights - meditative experiences that leave a lasting change in consciousness or that open us to another level of understanding or experience in our practice, in our view. These experiences can also take many different forms because there are many ways in which we are disconnected or out of touch with our deeper essence. Similarly, they only have the meaning and significance we impute on them, however they can be reliable indicators of our progress on the path so they are useful to student and teacher alike. Nevertheless, we must treat them the same as any meditative experience, in dzogchen practice that means to leave it as it is, don't engage or analyze, simply abide. These insightful meditative experiences can become even more formidable obstacles as we can be very attached to experiences that indicate spiritual growth. 

 

 

[stirling]

13 minutes ago, doc benway said:

It is said in Bön dzogchen teachings that, and I paraphrase, 'When the sounds, lights, and rays encounter the mind of the practitioner, they are impure because they reflect the mind which has the nature of samsara. When they encounter the mind's nature (ie. the practitioner resting in the nature of mind, the non-dual state), they liberate spontaneously and remain pure, reflecting the nature of liberation.' Pure and impure in this context simply refer to whether we grasp or allow the experience of visions to spontaneously liberate, they are not judgmental in a moral sense.

 

Beautiful.

 

In Zen such experiences are called "makyo". 

 

Quote

Makyō are the phenomena–visions, hallucinations, fantasies, revelations, illusory sensations–which one practicing zazen is apt to experience at a particular stage in his sitting. ...Never be tempted into thinking that these phenomena are real or that the visions themselves have any meaning. To have a beautiful vision of Buddha does not mean that you are any nearer becoming one yourself, any more than a dream of being a millionaire means you are any richer when you awake. -  Hakuun Yasutani, in Philip Kapleaus's The Three Pillars of Zen, pp. 42-44

 

Having crazy experiences is part of the path, and a fascinating one. Having them means that you have begun, and are moving forward toward understanding, but not much else generally.

 

I would call most of these sorts of events "experiences". Experiences, like all other relative phenomena are impermanent. How do you know what is important or not? Ask yourself, has it created a shift toward something permanent? Is it something I can see is true in this moment, and in ALL moments? Real insight permanently and dramatically alters your understanding and world view. THESE sorts of experiences are the ones to ask about.