Demonology. Why focus on the negative?

[Apotheose]

So, as I’ve been studying christian demonology for a few years now, I still can’t help but to think that it is an absolute waste of time. Reason why I’m planning to quit it for good.

 

Why study demons when you can avoid “them” if you sustain a healthy and balanced way of living life?

 

Of course, you can definitely “encounter” “demons” if you cultivate extreme opinions and identity yourself with strong worldviews, hence the karmic-educational nature of life.

 

But why would an actual mystic —who practices under a legit organization or tradition— would spend his time studying in detail such a negative field which, by the way, actually leads to nowhere?

 

In fact, all demons are representations of something, and the Holy Bible is on point, since there are no random demons. However, isn’t it more productive to improve your spiritual experience through “taking the correct path” instead of “avoiding the wrong paths”?

 

(Obviously) The study of demonology, because of its very nature, tends to be sought after by teens and young adults, which is justified. But why would an adult mystic —who likely knows the allegorical implications of its study— think he would find so much answers in its study?

 

Have they forgotten the meaning of John 1:5?

”And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not”.

[Ascetic]

Well, there's a lot you can learn and improve about yourself when studying Demons. Its effectively a study of lifeforms that lack more than we do, as a side effect of being raised in Hell and all.

While approaching issues and problems as demonic taint is certainly a faster character growth than any emotional separation. It's honestly rewarding to be able to blame Demons for things, better than always rolling up your sleeves. While it seems evil and perhaps chaotic, it is to me more efficient than any other ways of thinking.

We're so used to having to blame ourselves all the time, but rarely does someone who knows a lot about Demons actually find the space to ever blame themselves for anything. It's always a Demon that causes problem, and that conviction is freedom of its own kind.

Understanding of Demons will also translate very clearly to any actual talent for Magic. Now of course if someone isn't interested in Magic a lot of Demonology becomes useless, but Demonology isn't just for magic, it's also how most people should learn etiquette.

Even if Demonology is only used for the banishing of Demons, any subtle understanding will turn even the corpses of Imaginary Demons into Real Wealth. The value of Runes alone on a Demon is often more than what most gain after a lifetime of meditation. The merit of harvesting Runes from Demons alone is enough for me to consider Demonology worthwhile.

When I don't know how to draw a Rune even, I don't study manuscripts, no, instead I shuffle through Demons.

[Neirong]

16 hours ago, Apotheose said:

But why would an actual mystic —who practices under a legit organization or tradition— would spend his time studying in detail such a negative field which, by the way, actually leads to nowhere?

 

Who told you it leads nowhere? It is extremely rewarding field of self-cultivation.
 

16 hours ago, Apotheose said:

The study of demonology

The demonology is very much like biology, but instead of studying elementals of life (animals and various  "life" forms), it examines creatures from other worlds.

 

16 hours ago, Apotheose said:

So, as I’ve been studying christian demonology for a few years now, I still can’t help but to think that it is an absolute waste of time. Reason why I’m planning to quit it for good.

 

Why study demons when you can avoid “them” if you sustain a healthy and balanced way of living life?

 

Why do people train in martial arts and develop their bodies if they never plan to fight on the street?
 

Security based on skill and ability, rather than chance or luck, is a key reason. Also, it improves your health, well-being and productivity in life.

I know of many cases where people were parasitized and victimized by otherworldly entities (demons) without even realizing it was happening. It is easy to fall into a trap and have your entire life consumed or drained by entities, without the host ever becoming aware of it.

The consequences of being "eaten" may not be as dramatic as depicted in movies but can be as common as depression, anxiety disorders, eating disorders, fatigue, and an inability to think clearly or enjoy life. If you cannot resist and protect your energy and mind from external influences, you will inevitably become prey.

Remember the scene in The Matrix where humans are kept in capsules and their energy is siphoned off by another civilization?

Edited Tuesday at 07:54 PM by Neirong

[Nungali]

20 hours ago, Apotheose said:

So, as I’ve been studying christian demonology for a few years now, I still can’t help but to think that it is an absolute waste of time. Reason why I’m planning to quit it for good.

 

Why study demons when you can avoid “them” if you sustain a healthy and balanced way of living life?

 

Of course, you can definitely “encounter” “demons” if you cultivate extreme opinions and identity yourself with strong worldviews, hence the karmic-educational nature of life.

 

But why would an actual mystic —who practices under a legit organization or tradition— would spend his time studying in detail such a negative field which, by the way, actually leads to nowhere?

 

In fact, all demons are representations of something, and the Holy Bible is on point, since there are no random demons. However, isn’t it more productive to improve your spiritual experience through “taking the correct path” instead of “avoiding the wrong paths”?

 

(Obviously) The study of demonology, because of its very nature, tends to be sought after by teens and young adults, which is justified. But why would an adult mystic —who likely knows the allegorical implications of its study— think he would find so much answers in its study?

 

Have they forgotten the meaning of John 1:5?

”And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not”.

 

There are many reasons that are valid , but I assume they are beyond you .

 

And if one is going to study this , I would not recommend 'Christian demology' at all . 

 

No wonder you got a biased education on it ! 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Neirong said:

 

Who told you it leads nowhere?

 

 

 

The Christians . But they should not have ... they should have said it leads to hell and eternal damnation  ! 

 

  

 

 

4 hours ago, Neirong said:

 

 

It is extremely rewarding field of self-cultivation.
 

The demonology is very much like biology, but instead of studying elementals of life (animals and various  "life" forms), it examines creatures from other worlds.

 

And that is without examining the whole historical concept  and understanding of the term  .  I guess the Christina demonologists left that bit out ? 

 

4 hours ago, Neirong said:

 

Why do people train in martial arts and develop their bodies if they never plan to fight on the street?

 

Ya never know .... walking down the street one day and ..... 

 

Dr Wilson Van Dusen in his article 'Presence of spirits in madness ' observes that  psychiatric patients that complain of possession or similar conditions are often previously 'normal people like me and you ' that have a strange event 'happen to them ' ... you need not have a history of 'psychosis' .

 

and of course, as you hint, there a variety of other reasons  to study as well .

 

 

 

[Neirong]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

The Christians . But they should not have ... they should have said it leads to hell and eternal damnation  ! 

 

No wonder , people who make a living by telling others how they should live and think, would not be interested in anyone learning to think by themselves. It is common among religions to just label magic as evil practice, satan or shaitan occultism.

Magic is akin to science, involving the exploration of reality and the pursuit of truth.
During the medieval era, religious authorities often persecuted scientists and brilliant minds, through burning or torture.
 

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

Ya never know .... walking down the street one day and ..... 

 

Dr Wilson Van Dusen in his article 'Presence of spirits in madness ' observes that  psychiatric patients that complain of possession or similar conditions are often previously 'normal people like me and you ' that have a strange event 'happen to them ' ... you need not have a history of 'psychosis' .

 

and of course, as you hint, there a variety of other reasons  to study as well .

 

One benefit of studying and practicing magic is the development of mental resilience and protective layers. A person living an entirely mundane life without any exposure to cultivation faces a much higher risk of accidentally going insane, becoming possessed, or losing their mind and sanity. In contrast, those like myself and peers in magic, who regularly venture into dangerous realms, interact with spirits, and engage in astral battles, are better safeguarded.

[Apotheose]

I’m into Magic too, and the kind of Magic I practice is that of the Heart. And that leads me to disagree with some of your points like [by Ascetic] (i) “The value of Runes alone on a Demon is often more than what most gain after a lifetime of meditation” and [by Neirong] (ii) “If you cannot resist and protect your energy and mind from external influences, you will inevitably become prey”.

Respectfully, believing that external forces can takeover your wellbeing when your have a strong enough inner conversation is a excessively bold idea IMO. I don’t know if any of you are into christian mysticism, but that premise, in and of itself, entirely contradicts the Holy Bible (John 1:5 being maybe the best example of it). Runes are not needed, neither is resisting maleficent external sources of information, if you truly are a source of Light.

 

In general, I see that (christian) practices like Magic and Theurgy come from a very strong premise that “outer” things can never takeover one’s “inner” state if the latter is of Light. Hence the hermeneutical exegesis of “taking the correct path” instead of “avoiding the wrong paths”. No need to occupy yourself with “not doing wrong things” when you could just be “doing the right things”.

 

Of course demonology can be informative to someone who is suffering from anger, depression or anxiety, but first we need to address the compulsory karmic nature of life. There’s no “occasional” anger or depression as well as there’s no “random” demons. For every action there is a proportional educative compensation. So, if one happens to reap what he’d sowed, it will be his own inner atributes that will be responsible for putting him on the right tracks again.

 

In my opinion, the best way to protect yourself from external waves of negative “outsiders” is to cultivate a healthy inner world, which of course is attainable through Magic — and not through the practical or theoretical approaches of demonology.

[Nungali]

16 hours ago, Apotheose said:

I’m into Magic too, and the kind of Magic I practice is that of the Heart. And that leads me to disagree with some of your points like [by Ascetic] (i) “The value of Runes alone on a Demon is often more than what most gain after a lifetime of meditation” and [by Neirong] (ii) “If you cannot resist and protect your energy and mind from external influences, you will inevitably become prey”.

 

 

You probably already have become 'prey' . This goes way beyond the concepts mentioned here . Consider indoctrination, advertising propaganda  .... etc . 

 

 

16 hours ago, Apotheose said:

Respectfully, believing that external forces can takeover your wellbeing when your have a strong enough inner conversation is a excessively bold idea

 

 

One of the aims of demonology though is to improve and strengthen  - and manage the right way - that 'strong inner conversation' .

 

Then there is the question of how external are those 'external' forces ?   If they were external, trouble comes about when they become internal .  Or  a lot more accurately , the other way around ;   an internal force or drive becomes separated from the 'governor'  and assumes or  becomes convinced ( and then tries to convince you  and itself )  that  it is  disparate . 

 

16 hours ago, Apotheose said:

 

IMO. I don’t know if any of you are into christian mysticism, but that premise, in and of itself, entirely contradicts the Holy Bible (John 1:5 being maybe the best example of it).

 

Not just the Bible - throughout the whole magical  tradition  ( well, the 'valid' tradition ) ;   Its a Central theme  and power source of Magick But also of Psychology 

 

Hence first steps like pentagram / banishing / middle piller , etc. exercises . 

 

BUT  I note your inclusion of  " strong enough "  .  Here is the issue - hence the 'subliminal approach' of the 'demon'  ( whether spawned from an unresolved nagging internal doubt or an external Coca-cola advert) . 

 

It's a bit like saying if you are healthy enough you will not catch a cold .  

 

 

16 hours ago, Apotheose said:

Runes are not needed, neither is resisting maleficent external sources of information, if you truly are a source of Light.

 

 

That takes some time and evolution to accomplish though . 

 

 

The Magician .

 

O Lord, deliver me from hell's great fear and gloom!
Loose thou my spirit from the larvae of the tomb!
I seek them in their dread abodes without affright:
On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

I bid the night conceive the glittering hemisphere.
Arise, O sun, arise! O moon, shine white & clear!
I seek them in their dread abodes without affright:
On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

Their faces and their shapes are terrible and strange.
These devils by my might to angels I will change.
These nameless horrors I address without affright:
On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

These are the phantoms pale of mine astonied view,
Yet none but I their blasted beauty can renew;
For to the abyss of hell I plunge without affright:
On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

 

- Eliphas Levi .

 

16 hours ago, Apotheose said:

 

In general, I see that (christian) practices like Magic and Theurgy

 

 

Are they not at least discouraged practice for the non-clergy in Christianity ... if not banned or even considered 'sinful'  ? Does not the Bible preach against them ?  

 

Maybe I missed something , perhaps you are ordained and 'allowed' to practice magic in the church ? 

 

16 hours ago, Apotheose said:

come from a very strong premise that “outer” things can never takeover one’s “inner” state if the latter is of Light. Hence the hermeneutical exegesis of “taking the correct path” instead of “avoiding the wrong paths”. No need to occupy yourself with “not doing wrong things” when you could just be “doing the right things”.

 

 

Sometimes one can realize one is immersed in a surrounding ocean of wrong doings - the correct path may not be clear at all for many. Then of course there is the huge blunder that one might be self assured they are full of right and righteousness  ... we see that constantly .  .

 

16 hours ago, Apotheose said:

 

Of course demonology can be informative to someone who is suffering from anger, depression or anxiety, but first we need to address the compulsory karmic nature of life.

 

Can you explain what this means please ?

 

 

16 hours ago, Apotheose said:

There’s no “occasional” anger or depression as well as there’s no “random” demons. For every action there is a proportional educative compensation. So, if one happens to reap what he’d sowed, it will be his own inner atributes that will be responsible for putting him on the right tracks again.

 

 

 

What does 'there is no occasional anger or depression '   mean ?   You never have 'mood swings' .  Are you talking about some 'above it all state ' where you are never effected by the external world due to your inner world being so illuminated ? 

 

16 hours ago, Apotheose said:

 

In my opinion, the best way to protect yourself from external waves of negative “outsiders” is to cultivate a healthy inner world, which of course is attainable through Magic — and not through the practical or theoretical approaches of demonology.

 

Demonology has always been a part of magic though  and its part of maintaining and cultivating a healthy inner world . 

 

I found that many many years back during some visits to a  Kama Kargu   temple  - straight in the door ; demonic invocations .  Yet all the monks there  very happy and compassionate  - they looked after a few homeless  youth ,  and had taken in a one eyed cat and three legged dog , all there seemed to have ......   ' resolved ' certain things . 

[Paradoxal]

If one assumes Abrahamic religion is "good" or "positive", then what it condemns is naturally "negative".

 

From all I've seen of Abrahamic religion, it is an exceptionally negative influence on the world, thus it becomes tempting to view its enemies as positive.

 

Nonetheless, in reality, it contains both negative and positive aspects. If you truly profess to "study" demonology, then you should do so after letting your biases go. 

[Sanity Check]

The bible itself containing parables and narratives of fallen angels.

 

Even christians who usually avoid topics of magic & the occult must know some degree of biblical demonology.

 

Christians who say things like "Satan get behind me" while believing there isn't an element of demonology study involved in these quotations and stories of fallen angels.

 

Are a strange people.

 

 

[Nungali]

I doubt Christians never knew ( and  probably still do not )  'demonology' .   

 

Most of  what is in their  old manuscripts , they picked up in the early period by copying the lore from  Greek and Arabic grimories  and some passed down Mesopotamian lore  and Jewish mythological   sources. 

 

And a lot of the Jewish 'demonology' merely refers to  aspects of other religions ;   going to the actual Biblical references  ( ;heaven forbid !   )  se'irim -  an Assyrian goat like creature that sacrifices are NOT to be made to ,  shedim - does seem to refer to a demon but it comes from an Akkadian term  for demon .  Both are about idolatry and   forbidden sacrifices .  Basically ; don't sacrifice to other Gods ( even though they supposedly do not exist )  only sacrifice to Jehovah . 

 

But most don't know that ... as they have been 'indoctrinated' .  Even the modern word 'demon'  is not usually understood etymologically .  I suggest looking at some variant spellings like diamon / daemon  and the history of its concepts through Zoroastrianism , Greek philosophy and Jung . 

 

THEN  maybe you might start to gain an understanding of the concept . 

[Sanity Check]

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

I doubt Christians never knew ( and  probably still do not )  'demonology' .   

 

Most of  what is in their  old manuscripts , they picked up in the early period by copying the lore from  Greek and Arabic grimories  and some passed down Mesopotamian lore  and Jewish mythological   sources. 

 

And a lot of the Jewish 'demonology' merely refers to  aspects of other religions ;   going to the actual Biblical references  ( ;heaven forbid !   )  se'irim -  an Assyrian goat like creature that sacrifices are NOT to be made to ,  shedim - does seem to refer to a demon but it comes from an Akkadian term  for demon .  Both are about idolatry and   forbidden sacrifices .  Basically ; don't sacrifice to other Gods ( even though they supposedly do not exist )  only sacrifice to Jehovah . 

 

But most don't know that ... as they have been 'indoctrinated' .  Even the modern word 'demon'  is not usually understood etymologically .  I suggest looking at some variant spellings like diamon / daemon  and the history of its concepts through Zoroastrianism , Greek philosophy and Jung . 

 

THEN  maybe you might start to gain an understanding of the concept . 

 

 

The concept of 33% of fallen angels rebelling against heaven in the bible.

 

Is not something found in greek or arabic tomes.

 

The bible also repeats certain numbers and fractions like 1/3rd in ways which may have deep hidden meanings.

 

In ways which cannot be compared to other religions. Which do no such thing.

[Neirong]

On 07.05.2025 at 8:08 AM, Apotheose said:

Respectfully, believing that external forces can takeover your wellbeing when your have a strong enough inner conversation is a excessively bold idea IMO. I don’t know if any of you are into christian mysticism, but that premise, in and of itself, entirely contradicts the Holy Bible (John 1:5 being maybe the best example of it). Runes are not needed, neither is resisting maleficent external sources of information, if you truly are a source of Light.

 

In general, I see that (christian) practices like Magic and Theurgy come from a very strong premise that “outer” things can never takeover one’s “inner” state if the latter is of Light. Hence the hermeneutical exegesis of “taking the correct path” instead of “avoiding the wrong paths”. No need to occupy yourself with “not doing wrong things” when you could just be “doing the right things”.

 

Science differs from belief systems because it tests ideas in practical settings.
 

Here is a simple test to verify your concept:
 

Try walking alone into the wild Amazon jungle at night without any weapons or tools to see if a holy aura or positive thinking will deter predators. If your belief holds true, no one will bite or attack you, and you will be able to live for weeks in a literal paradise, breathing high-quality air within the rainforest.

 

18 hours ago, Nungali said:

Sometimes one can realize one is immersed in a surrounding ocean of wrong doings - the correct path may not be clear at all for many. Then of course there is the huge blunder that one might be self assured they are full of right and righteousness  ... we see that constantly .  .

Yes, life, self-development, and personal growth are based on learning from experience. If someone believes with absolute certainty that there is a "correct path," from the beginning, they have already lost their way.
 

Most destructive cults I have encountered operate like this. The brainwashed mind shuts down, and the person believes they are following the correct path.

[Nungali]

23 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

If one assumes Abrahamic religion is "good" or "positive", then what it condemns is naturally "negative".

 

From all I've seen of Abrahamic religion, it is an exceptionally negative influence on the world, thus it becomes tempting to view its enemies as positive.

 

Nonetheless, in reality, it contains both negative and positive aspects. If you truly profess to "study" demonology, then you should do so after letting your biases go. 

 

There where Gnostics that thought exactly that  and thought to do 'bad' in the eyes of this terrible 'God' actually means you are doing good , So they worshiped other Gods , practiced  homosexuality,  adultery ,  etc  . 

 

Then there was the other group that wanted to do all that but were still too indoctrinated . Solution ?   They found some passage that said while man walks on God's earth he must obey his rules ....  when they were 'on the surface ' they were good .  For 'other needs'  they set up down in caves        party time !    

[Nungali]

15 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

The concept of 33% of fallen angels rebelling against heaven in the bible.

 

Nope .  They were "stars fallen from heaven "  .

 

15 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

Is not something found in greek or arabic tomes.

 

Like I said , if you  REALLY want to know , follow the history of the word  and do some research  

 

EG  .  Realize what  Revelations actually  IS and there metaphors in it . Realize its a story about the then current political world  in context of the COMMON   'war in heaven '  motif  that is throughout  the ancient world : Aesir - Vanir War ,  Asuras , Devas, Gigantomancy, War between Angels and Jinn, Theomachy, Titanomarchy, etc . 

 

15 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

The bible also repeats certain numbers and fractions like 1/3rd in ways which may have deep hidden meanings.

 

That's some deep  gematria you got going there    

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

In ways which cannot be compared to other religions. Which do no such thing.

 

Rubbish !  

 

You going to claim some special power of the Bible now because it may or may not have  deep hidden meanings about fractions ?

 

 

 

- excuse me Sir .....  your indoctrination is showing .  

 

 

 

[Sanity Check]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Nope .  They were "stars fallen from heaven "  .

 

 

Like I said , if you  REALLY want to know , follow the history of the word  and do some research  

 

 

 

 

The only similarity I see.

 

Greek mythology contains references to giants (titans) of past eras.

 

While the bible contains references to giants of past ages who were wiped out during the great flood.

 

Similar to the great flood of Noah's Ark and the flood tale of the Epic of Gilgamesh.

 

I've seen atheists claim the story of Jesus is a copycat of the story of Mithras for the last 20 years.

 

Making those types of unsubstantiated claims is an integral part of how atheism lost ground over the past 20 years as well.

 

Edited yesterday at 01:38 AM by Sanity Check

[Nungali]

Ohhhh ..... you want me to substantiate my claims do you  ?  

 

 

 

Okay then ; 

 

 

 

Now if you could  get to the end of that , past the attempts of 'the believers' to derail it (who got banned , by the way )  ,  I would have gone on to this . 

 

 

26 episodes there are . I have  studied all of them .  After you have , we can discuss it . 

 

Oh and by the way ,   my first 'theories' in that Judaism thread have been well backed up by Dr Finklestien now  , and also, when I started that thread I had never heard of him .  

 

Now moving on to your UNSUBSTANTIATED  claim about religion growing  ... rather sully as now anyone can check  with a quick  Google and get ;

 

 

" AI Overview

In recent decades, religious affiliation has generally decreased in many parts of the world, with a rise in the number of people identifying as non-religious. While some religions, like Islam, have experienced growth, the overall trend shows a decline in religious affiliation and a rise in the number of religiously unaffiliated individuals. "

 

Of course no proof or evidence or logic will sway you from this path you are on here though will it ?   

[Sanity Check]

54 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Ohhhh ..... you want me to substantiate my claims do you  ?  

 

 

 

Okay then ; 

 

 

 

 

Now moving on to your UNSUBSTANTIATED  claim about religion growing  ... rather sully as now anyone can check  with a quick  Google and get ;

 

 

" AI Overview

In recent decades, religious affiliation has generally decreased in many parts of the world, with a rise in the number of people identifying as non-religious. While some religions, like Islam, have experienced growth, the overall trend shows a decline in religious affiliation and a rise in the number of religiously unaffiliated individuals. "

 

Of course no proof or evidence or logic will sway you from this path you are on here though will it ?   

 

 

 

Attempts to substantiate your claims.

 

Are exactly what I would expect from you.

 

...

 

15 to 20 years ago.

 

There was a news story in circulation announcing religious folks who no longer affiliate with a specific denomination would be recategorized as "atheist".

 

That's where your "growth in atheism" stems from. 

 

There are many atheists who say they're "atheist but not woke".

 

And many atheists who claim they're "agnostic not atheist".

 

Those distancing themselves from wokeness and atheism can tell which direction winds of public opinion are blowing. No amount of pretending will ever make those winds favorable.

 

This is like digging up fossils from 15 to 20 years ago. This is ancient & irrelavent knowledge to me.

 

But to those like yourself, who could be the last to know things.

 

You might consider this "new".

 

People got banned for disagreeing with you?

 

Its not a quote from cartoons.

 

But good enough.

Edited yesterday at 08:35 AM by Sanity Check

[idiot_stimpy]

Quote

“They're freeing your soul.

So, if you're frightened of dying and … you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away.

But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.”

- Jacob's Ladder (1990 film)

 

[old3bob]

 

look at politics in the US and around the world, such are full of demonically or adharmic driven folks practicing greed, malice, sickening lies about anything or anyone from A-Z if it serves their purpose,  serious harm against the common good,  grift, violence and inciting violence in multiple forms, false imprisonment,  insulting ways,  propaganda while ignoring verifiable facts, (example: the "Big lie") nepotism,  forms of genocide,  theft, coups,  destruction of decent humanistic norms,  unlawful takeovers, health and environmental harm, ignoring reasonably founded and fair laws of the land that are meant to apply to everyone,  stealing or corrupting elections, various and vast manipulation's of financial systems or laws to benefit themselves, sowing doubt and fear, temporary "rope a dope" types of shallow appeasements used to gain time for amassing ill begotten power, screwing with families daily lives and jobs, religious persecutions,  making vice a virtue, etc., etc... such does not apply to all of them just way to many for the common people to deal with very well!

 

 

Edited 16 hours ago by old3bob

[Nungali]

14 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

Attempts to substantiate your claims.

 

Are exactly what I would expect from you.

 

 

Also then here is the quote you where referring to  

 

" ts tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. "

 

Rev. 12 : 4

 

stars . 

 

 

 

Quote

 

...

 

15 to 20 years ago.

 

There was a news story in circulation announcing religious folks who no longer affiliate with a specific denomination would be recategorized as "atheist".

 

That's where your "growth in atheism" stems from. 

 

the number of religiously unaffiliated individuals, including atheists, agnostics, and those who identify as "nones," continues to increase in many parts of the world, particularly in Western Europe and North America. 

 

What you are seeing is a  rise in the birth rate of places that have more  religious people as the less religious people don't breed as much  because they are not restricted in things like contraception and abortions .

 

 

Quote

 

There are many atheists who say they're "atheist but not woke".

 

And many atheists who claim they're "agnostic not atheist".

 

Those distancing themselves from wokeness and atheism can tell which direction winds of public opinion are blowing. No amount of pretending will ever make those winds favorable.

 

How did 'wokeness' get into your religious / atheist   comparisons  ? 

 

Quote

 

This is like digging up fossils from 15 to 20 years ago. This is ancient & irrelavent knowledge to me.

 

And of course we have never learnt anything from examining fossils      

 

Besides , if you can remember it was YOU that started digging up  20 years ago ;  " Making those types of unsubstantiated claims is an integral part of how atheism lost ground over the past 20 years as well "

 

Your own comments are irrelevant and ancient knowledge to you now ?  

 

I responded to what was happening in the last 20 years 

 

You  then respond with a lame comment about me digging up fossils from 20 years ago . 

 

Your brain works strangely ! 

 

 

 

 

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But to those like yourself, who could be the last to know things.

 

You might consider this "new".

 

Nope, I don't consider your view of it new at all .    Its about to increase actually .... due to the current forces in the greatest country in the world and its illustrious leader .... but I am not allowed to talk about that here .

 

 

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People got banned for disagreeing with you?

 

NO , they got banned for being inconsistent  argumentative dorks that could not hold their end up in a debate and used all those BS tactics people use in a discussion when they cant address the facts presented to them reasonably, then they start playing games and insulting the person because they are loosing their faith based arguments .  

 

people like that  , of course  , cant help themselves and inevitably they tried it on at least one moderator here  and then 'ended up being banned ' 

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

 

 

 

 

Take that up with the moderator team .    Its not my issue . 

 

Got any thing else   ' on me '  ?  

 

 

.

Edited 13 hours ago by Nungali

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

 

 

Ohhh ... your quotes gone  ... anyway , it reminded me of the  'gateway' of Saturn  - Binah on the Tree of Life , The Great Sea but also The Great Mother .  The forces are collected  *  and joined together and birthed through the abyss ..... when the energy is coming 'down'  , so she is the giver of life . Hence Saturn represents structure, order, systems  and the discipline to keep it all together and functioning . 

 

But going up the Tree it is a dissolving , Saturn is seen as 'destructive '  pulling things apart, releasing  and a death through the abyss and a rising beyond - death and 'liberation' from life . 

 

It's a perspective thing ;  from 'down here '    we rejoice when the gate opens and life comes forth , but not when life departs and the gate closes over . 

 

 

[Nungali]

I left out my note to *   (forces are collated )  ;

 

* 

Spoiler

“Before The Beginning Of Years"

Before the beginning of years
There came to the making of man
Time, with a gift of tears;
Grief, with a glass that ran;
Pleasure, with pain for leaven;
Summer, with flowers that fell;
Remembrance, fallen from heaven,
And madness risen from hell;
Strength without hands to smite;
Love that endures for a breath;
Night, the shadow of light,
And life, the shadow of death.

And the high gods took in hand
Fire, and the falling of tears,
And a measure of sliding sand
From under the feet of the years;
And froth and the drift of the sea;
And dust of the laboring earth;
And bodies of things to be
In the houses of death and of birth;
And wrought with weeping and laughter,
And fashioned with loathing and love,
With life before and after
And death beneath and above,
For a day and a night and a morrow,
That his strength might endure for a span
With travail and heavy sorrow,
The holy spirit of man.

From the winds of the north and the south,
They gathered as unto strife;
They breathed upon his mouth,
They filled his body with life;
Eyesight and speech they wrought
For the veils of the soul therein,
A time for labor and thought,
A time to serve and to sin;
They gave him light in his ways,
And love, and space for delight,
And beauty, and length of days,
And night, and sleep in the night.
His speech is a burning fire;
With his lips he travaileth;
In his heart is a blind desire,
In his eyes foreknowledge of death;
He weaves, and is clothed with derision;
Sows, and he shall not reap;
His life is a watch or a vision
Between a sleep and a sleep.”

― Algernon Charles Swinburne, Poems and Ballads & Atalanta in Calydon

 

[Nungali]

Let's tour wiki   (as it saves a lot of typing  ) ; 

 

 

"  The daimon (δαίμων), also spelled daemon (meaning "god", "godlike", "power", "fate"),^[1][2] denotes an "unknown superfactor", which can be either good or hostile.^[3]

In ancient Greek religion and mythology a daimon was imagined to be a lesser deity or guiding spirit.^[4] The word is derived from Proto-Indo-European daimon "provider, divider (of fortunes or destinies)," from the root *da- "to divide".^[5] Daimons were possibly seen as the souls of men of the golden age, tutelary deities, or the forces of fate.^[6]

 

^"  A tutelary (/ˈtjuːtəlɛri/; also tutelar) is a deity or a spirit who is a guardian, patron, or protector of a particular place, geographic feature, person, lineage, nation, culture, or occupation. The etymology of "tutelary" expresses the concept of safety and thus of guardianship.

In late Greek and Roman religion, one type of tutelary deity, the genius, functions as the personal deity or daimon of an individual from birth to death. Another form of personal tutelary spirit is the familiar spirit of European folklore.^[1] "

 

"  Socrates spoke of hearing the voice of his personal spirit or daimonion:

You have often heard me speak of an oracle or sign which comes to me … . This sign I have had ever since I was a child. The sign is a voice which comes to me and always forbids me to do something which I am going to do, but never commands me to do anything ....^[2] "e

 

 

^{-  It isn't just the Greeks ;  Blavatski had her King John and Yung had his  'Philamon'   . We all have one , but not many are in communication consciously with them  .... usually they work through the unconscious  and seem 'suppressed ' or 'sleeping ' otherwise  , which is the usual situation.   Not really a problem unless some lesser part of the psyche 'splits off' and attempts to create its own identity .  These lesser parts are better known as 'demons'   and depending on their level or function can be malevolent .  Which means , originally, they were 'out of place ' .   Think of bringing inside the guard dog from the junkyard while you have invited  people around for dinner .  Or an excavator in a veggie patch .}

 

^{If that seems obscure think of your own anger and violence  .... something not be used for accessed but kept in reserve for the appropriate time and action  ( and if you cant conceive of that  think of a home invasion when its up to you to preserve your family ; anger, adrenaline ,   swift reaction,  etc  might all be required )  .   Like a crocodile that cleans up the dead and rotten from the   bottom or the slow and sick from the shore, we too have forces like that inside us . Or even more subtle  forces,  when out of place or unregulated become troublesome and disruptive .} 

 

^{There are more abstract forces 'above ' the tutilary spirit  that relate more to the  'Superconscious' but they are more abstract and 'de-personified' ( meaning they don't claim personality or names  but give identity as 'forces' or 'regulators'  - these seem the opposite of 'demons' and have authority over them .  The psychiatrist  Dr VanDusen observed that when they are  in 'absence '  ( sleeping,  suppressed  or ignored )   and other parts of the psyche attempt a 'take over' or an independence  (or even a 'rebellion ' ) they can, if not overrule  the psyche , at least 'pre occupy' it with their  dramas, schemes, false information, insults  and annoyances  ( just like someone that is loosing an argument on an internet forum    ) .} 

 

^{However once invoked or 'awakened'  these 'higher order'   superconscious  communications have hierarchy over these lower forces and can 'put them back in their place '  ....  Dr VanDusen noticed that  and recorded it as a ' rule' in dealing with these problems .} 

 

^{It's a basic premise of magick} 

 

^{So how is one to deal with  this all  ( if you don't want to 'deal' with it the usual way  -  stick head in sand )  ?   Through 'magical technology' - available through some forms of  magick or religion .}   

 

^{One might then pose the question how to manage these forces in the psyche .   The usual way is to go about believing there is one self with a will that decides what it is doing and then go about that  .}

 

  ^{yeah right  .  But as some say " Well, that seems to work ... look how far we have got , we are doing pretty good ."}

 

 Are we ?   ... Are we really doing that good  at  managing things, ourselves  and our environment ?  

 

Psychically we are collective .   So who is going to run the show ?   This is why one of the main symbolic accouterments  ( or weapons or tools ) of the magician is the crown , you will often see them depicted wearing one .  It is the magician which must rule this kingdom  of internal 'spirits'  or forces or 'drives'  .... tendencies , influences , compulsions ....    ( if you find this hard to comprehend , have you ever admonished yourself ?  " Why the hell did you do that ?  " or  "  I didn't want to do that but I had to and gave in ."  - maybe it's violence or just eating chocolate cake  BUT   who is talking to who here ? Who is admonishing who or what ?)  

 

Of course it isn't as simple as putting on a crown and declaring your kingship  ( many try , hence all the fake unbalanced egotistical masters and magicians in  many areas . 

 

The tree of life titles offer some help here ; 

 

 

 

The first observation is that there is a male / female side  , IE it has a polarity .  Starting at the top  the  Magician has his crown . It is based on , or has worth in or was developed by the twin forces underneath it ; wisdom and understanding . . . of a higher nature , above the 'abyss'  wherein lies 'knowledge '  ( Daath - not shown in diagram ) . 

 

Knowledge alone is not enough and can be dangerous without the other aspects ;  Understanding is about the results of applying knowledge  and wisdom is about creating those results within the right circumstances - the results of the knowledge itself and the wisdom in where and how to apply it and what will come from it .   A King needs that . 

 

below that is mercy and judgement  (or severity )  , very important for a king to have balance in . As it says in an important initiatory document  "  Remember that unbalanced force is evil; that unbalanced severity is but cruelty and oppression; but that also unbalanced mercy is but weakness which would allow and abet Evil." 

 

And so the qualities continue down until we get to the  foundation which the Empire / Kingdom   (psyche ) is built up on . 

 

In the hierarchy of the Psyche there are all types of levels , some have been briefly outlined above , but there are others which are 'autonomous '  ( a physical equivalence  would be  our autonomous functions like heart rate or respiration ) ; they care care of a LIMITED field ' by themselves ' without the need for higher or conscious regulation   UNLESS they move out of place  ( become 'rebellious'  )   But also , they don't have a say in running things on a higher level and make higher decisions .  Those forces are  further up in the hierarchy .  

 

Its all spelled out clearly in the second degree initiation -  life  ( 3 degrees relating to  birth life and death  )  - including how to live your life , which includes , of course 'the vehicle' ;  how to run and regulate your life ;

 

" 1. This is the Constitution and Government of our Holy Order; by the study of its Balance you may yourself come to apprehension of how to rule your own life. For, in True Things, all are but images one of another; man is but a map of the universe, and Society is but the same on a larger scale.

.....

34 ....  Such is a brief outline ... It combines monarchy with democracy; it includes aristocracy, and conceals even the seeds of revolution, by which alone progress can be effected. Thus we balance the Triads, uniting the Three in One; thus we gather up all the threads of human passion and interest, and weave them into an harmonious tapestry .... See thou to it, brother Magician, that thine own thread be strong, and pure, and of a colour brilliant in itself, yet ready to mingle in all beauty with those of thy brethren... " 

 

I realize  hierarchical ideas are not popular like they used to be . Smart modern people just do what they feel like and justify and rationalize on a whim .... 'know without learning ' and act on what they think is 'intuition' , all the time praising this approach  and  complaining about the 'hierarchical  authority ' that long term  learning and trial and error and resultant adjustment brings about  ... well that's turned out real well hasn't it ?  

 

 

 

 

 

[Sanity Check]

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Also then here is the quote you where referring to  

 

" ts tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. "

 

Rev. 12 : 4

 

stars . 

 

 

 

Revelation deals mainly with future prophecy.

 

The rebellion of fallen angels happened in the past.

 

 

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

the number of religiously unaffiliated individuals, including atheists, agnostics, and those who identify as "nones," continues to increase in many parts of the world, particularly in Western Europe and North America. 

 

What you are seeing is a  rise in the birth rate of places that have more  religious people as the less religious people don't breed as much  because they are not restricted in things like contraception and abortions .

 

 

How did 'wokeness' get into your religious / atheist   comparisons  ? 

 

 

Many abandoned atheism after it went woke.

 

Men chopping off their pee pees to compete in woman's sports.

 

Who wants to be associated with that?

 

 

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

And of course we have never learnt anything from examining fossils      

 

Besides , if you can remember it was YOU that started digging up  20 years ago ;  " Making those types of unsubstantiated claims is an integral part of how atheism lost ground over the past 20 years as well "

 

Your own comments are irrelevant and ancient knowledge to you now ?  

 

I responded to what was happening in the last 20 years 

 

You  then respond with a lame comment about me digging up fossils from 20 years ago . 

 

Your brain works strangely ! 

 

 

 

Its like a joke being said 1,000 years ago.

 

And people being so slow they still haven't got the punchline thousands of years later.

 

If the sharp mind takes 5 seconds to comprehend something.

 

The slow mind will take 50 to 500+ years to comprehend the same content.

 

It should be ancient knowledge but people working night and day to live under a rock make that ancient knowledge into unobtainable knowledge.

 

 

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

Nope, I don't consider your view of it new at all .    Its about to increase actually .... due to the current forces in the greatest country in the world and its illustrious leader .... but I am not allowed to talk about that here .

 

 

I've seen more than a few attempts to blame Trump for everything bad in the world.

 

There is no shortage of that out there.

 

 

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

NO , they got banned for being inconsistent  argumentative dorks that could not hold their end up in a debate and used all those BS tactics people use in a discussion when they cant address the facts presented to them reasonably, then they start playing games and insulting the person because they are loosing their faith based arguments .  

 

people like that  , of course  , cant help themselves and inevitably they tried it on at least one moderator here  and then 'ended up being banned ' 

 

 

 

Well, like I said.

 

I don't discuss or debate much anymore.

 

As I have come to realize facts and science are things most consider useless.

 

 

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Take that up with the moderator team .    Its not my issue . 

 

Got any thing else   ' on me '  ?  

 

 

 

You?

 

Who are you anyway.

 

I thought you were some nun who took a vow of chastity.

 

Nun - gali.