What is meant by Emptiness?? Especially in meditation??

[Tommy]

When I was first taught how to meditate, no one mentioned emptiness. Just how to sit relaxed and watch the breath. Not to get caught up in chasing thoughts. And after some practice, I can sit in what I consider some quiet. I observe my breath. I observe my mind. Thoughts come and go. There are times when I can not tell the different from watching myself from just being myself. I have read a lot about emptiness lately but still do not understand the meaning.

 

I am reminded of the story of Bodhidharma's visit to the Shaolin Temple. He went into a room where the monks were suppose to spend all the time there in meditation and not speaking.  Bodhidharma asked what the monks were doing there. The monks replied with something like they wanted to become enlightened or become Buddha like. So, Bodhidharma picked up a roof tile and started rubbing it against the ground. The other monks asked him what he was doing. I think he said something like if you can practice meditation to become enlightened then I can polish this roof tile to become a mirror. It just shows the actions are not congruent. One doesn't lead to the other.

 

So, practice doesn't make one become enlightened. But, without practice then there may be no chance to become enlightened?? IDK. Is one awareness? And does keeping that awareness clear and empty allow one to see the truth of nature? When I first started and much younger, I so wanted to experience this. Then having read that the person who want this isn't the same person to experience this. I no longer believe this to be my wish. I think the experiences along the way is what is important. And the people we meet along the way helps us to understand more. So what does emptiness mean especially during meditation?

 

Please feel free to say anything. I appreciate replies especially if you are not on my ignore list. 

Edited Monday at 04:43 AM by Tommy

[Lairg]

It seems to me that all parts of the human have at least two uses.

 

For example the intelligence that operates the personality, at first stage enlightenment, transitions from defense to creativity.

 

I recall long ago, TM meditators complaining that they were losing their personality.  That may have felt a bit empty, but they were just losing the most obvious (obnoxious?) parts of their persona (mask)

 

It may be that the apparent emptiness is soon filled by beneficial qualities previously obscured.

 

Later the human initiate becomes active outside the planet as well as within the human race

 

 

[stirling]

10 hours ago, Tommy said:

When I was first taught how to meditate, no one mentioned emptiness. Just how to sit relaxed and watch the breath. Not to get caught up in chasing thoughts. And after some practice, I can sit in what I consider some quiet.

 

If you don't mind me asking, who or what tradition taught you to meditate? It sounds like you have landed close to the mark for early stage meditator, which is fantastic. Few make it this far. 

 

10 hours ago, Tommy said:

I observe my breath. I observe my mind. Thoughts come and go. There are times when I can not tell the different from watching myself from just being myself.

 

This is great, and a real hint at how things are. Some questions you can pose yourself when your mind is quiet: What if everything just comes and goes, including "Tommy". Where is Tommy where there is stillness? These are direct hints at that nature of mind. 

 

10 hours ago, Tommy said:

I have read a lot about emptiness lately but still do not understand the meaning.

 

Do you have a teacher who has been approved to teach in a lineage tradition? In most decent sized towns and cities there are one, or a few of these people. If you find one in a no -dual tradition that does "direct pointing" (Advaita Vedanta, Sufi, Buddhism, Hinduism) you might get someone who can show you. If not feel free to message me. I find that this sort of thing is easiest in person, but have had some success over Zoom.

 

10 hours ago, Tommy said:

I am reminded of the story of Bodhidharma's visit to the Shaolin Temple. He went into a room where the monks were suppose to spend all the time there in meditation and not speaking.  Bodhidharma asked what the monks were doing there. The monks replied with something like they wanted to become enlightened or become Buddha like. So, Bodhidharma picked up a roof tile and started rubbing it against the ground. The other monks asked him what he was doing. I think he said something like if you can practice meditation to become enlightened then I can polish this roof tile to become a mirror. It just shows the actions are not congruent. One doesn't lead to the other.

 

This is correct. To put it more clearly:

 

Quote

To seek Mind with discriminating mind
is the greatest of all mistakes.

- Tsin Tsin Ming, Seng T'san

 

 

10 hours ago, Tommy said:

So, practice doesn't make one become enlightened. But, without practice then there may be no chance to become enlightened?? IDK.

 

Enlightenment isn't caused by a practice, it is made more likely however, depending on the practice. 

 

Quote

“Gaining enlightenment is an accident. Spiritual practice simply makes us accident-prone.” - Shunryu Suzuki Roshi

 

Without practice can there be enlightenment? It is less likely, but yes. In the same way that having an intention and doing the ground work for something in the future makes it more likely to happen, practice of a constructive type can make conditions more favorable. The trick, however, is not to equate practice to enlightenment, and cling to practices as an absolutely reliable method. One of the first realizations of the awakened is that "rites and rituals" aren't the cause of it. Clinging to rites and rituals drops away:

 

Quote

Clinging to rites and rituals — The view that one becomes pure simply through performing rituals (animal sacrifices, ablutions, chanting, etc.), adhering to rigid moralism, or relying on a god for non-causal delivery (issara nimmāna). Rites and rituals now function more to obscure than to support the right view of the sotāpanna's now-opened dharma eye. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sotāpanna#Three_fetters

 

10 hours ago, Tommy said:

Is one awareness?

 

Absolutely, depending on what "awareness" means to you, though I would say, "There is ONLY awareness". What I mean specifically is when your mind is still, and there is just observing the play of color and light that is the world, without labeling in the mind, or mental discourse about what is witnessed.

 

10 hours ago, Tommy said:

And does keeping that awareness clear and empty allow one to see the truth of nature?

 

That is my experience, and the view of many non-dual traditions. In fact, if you are doing it correctly you ARE seeing that "true nature", though you may not be enlightened to it.

 

Think of it like training a willow to become a fence, or a chair. For extreme bends you must gently train the willow in the direction you wish it to go every day until it naturally starts to have a curve. Eventually the willow will be bent and will just hold its new shape. Training the mind is the same. 

 

Resting the mind in awareness (buddha nature/Rigpa/primordial awareness/the nature of mind) increases the ease with which you can rest it, increases the amount of time it can stay there, increases the amount of times it spontaneously manifests in day to day life, and the chances that one day it will just click into place. 

 

10 hours ago, Tommy said:

When I first started and much younger, I so wanted to experience this. Then having read that the person who want this isn't the same person to experience this. I no longer believe this to be my wish. I think the experiences along the way is what is important. And the people we meet along the way helps us to understand more.

 

I encourage you to think of your practice like some of the more mundane daily activities you do. Do it every day at a non-negotiable time, like you would brushing your teeth or eating breakfast. Have no expectations, do not grasp or cling to it doing anything beyond making you more calm, less reactive, and a better person in your relationships. All of these will naturally be true with at least 20 minutes a day, though 40 is better if you can do it even occasionally.

 

10 hours ago, Tommy said:

So what does emptiness mean especially during meditation?

 

It means that time, self, and space drop out in a very familiar and actually quite mundane way. You are already experiencing emptiness every day of your life, but you don't have a word, or thought about it because that is not the nature of it. It is the space BETWEEN words and thoughts. It is easiest to notice when your mind is quiet and still in meditation, when you are paying attention and are "alert but relaxed". Given time the mind will eventually run itself out of its stream of thoughts and drop out. There will be pause in between the last thought and the next. The mind won't be labelling the objects you see in consciousness, like the table or lamp in front of you, or the mental objects in your thoughts. With your eyes open there will just be color and light, no objects being differentiated by the mind.

 

I hope this is helpful. _/\_

[Tommy]

@Stirling, Thanks for the reply. Your insights are very much appreciated.

 

 

Do I have a teacher from an approved tradition?

No, my mom was actually the first to teach me how to meditate. She taught me to count to three. One number for every complete breath. I practiced only a little bit. Later on, I had another teacher who was a bit unorthodox. He taught the forth way by Gurdjieff. What I learned from that was that if one wanted to improve oneself that one must spend much time in self observation. To understand that many react rather than respond to the environment. When someone says something and a person reacts that there is no self control. Where as a person who responds, that person takes the time to understand the situation and think before acting. Therefore, the person who responds is always in control of themselves. Only in this way can one learn how to put this house (self) in order. A lot of time was spent in meditation with incense and background music. There is a bit more to Gurdjieff but, I have forgotten. Later, I learned a little about Sufism thru books. And then Zen, rather Zen Buddhism. Haven't looked for another teacher but like to lurk on Buddhist forums. Learn what I can. Again, I really do appreciate your insights.

[stirling]

28 minutes ago, Tommy said:

Do I have a teacher from an approved tradition?

No, my mom was actually the first to teach me how to meditate. She taught me to count to three. One number for every complete breath. I practiced only a little bit.

 

How fortunate to encounter meditation at home. I didn't find it until I was in my teens. My parents were clueless about such things.

 

28 minutes ago, Tommy said:

Later on, I had another teacher who was a bit unorthodox. He taught the forth way by Gurdjieff. What I learned from that was that if one wanted to improve oneself that one must spend much time in self observation. To understand that many react rather than respond to the environment. When someone says something and a person reacts that there is no self control. Where as a person who responds, that person takes the time to understand the situation and think before acting. Therefore, the person who responds is always in control of themselves. Only in this way can one learn how to put this house (self) in order.

 

Indeed, my own teacher would say precisely the same thing. What we are in charge of is how we respond, NOT how the world is, or what happens next. 

 

28 minutes ago, Tommy said:

A lot of time was spent in meditation with incense and background music. There is a bit more to Gurdjieff but, I have forgotten. Later, I learned a little about Sufism thru books. And then Zen, rather Zen Buddhism. Haven't looked for another teacher but like to lurk on Buddhist forums. Learn what I can. Again, I really do appreciate your insights.

 

Zen I can help with, if you decide you want more guidance. _/\_

[Tommy]

22 hours ago, stirling said:

Zen I can help with, if you decide you want more guidance. _/\_

Being exposed to meditation when young made no difference as I never seriously pursued it. It was only in my teens that I developed an interest. And only after I retired, that I have decided to integrate the practice into my nightly routine. I have looked into Zen centers near where I live. All of them teach meditation in one form or another. But, I have for one reason or another have not decided to seek a teacher. I thank you for your offer to help. And do really appreciate the advice you have given me here on this forum.

[Neirong]

On 28.04.2025 at 7:32 AM, Tommy said:

So, practice doesn't make one become enlightened. But, without practice then there may be no chance to become enlightened?? IDK. Is one awareness? And does keeping that awareness clear and empty allow one to see the truth of nature?

Practicing sitting on the toilet for hours every day will never make you a kickboxing world champion.
 

Meditation is a broad term. Some people sit and count their breaths as a form of meditation, while others focus on being aware of something.
 

I visit public places with a sense of humor, but it is unfortunate to see all kinds of young people and some not so young wasting their lives on meaningless activities, believing that "it will happen" one day. A few more years of pointless sitting on the toilet, and they expect to become world champions in everything at once, complete with a rainbow body and ascension.
 

Moreover, instead of gaining insights from practice, they engage in endless debates and discussions that are even more futile and pointless than the practice itself.

 

On 28.04.2025 at 7:32 AM, Tommy said:

So, practice doesn't make one become enlightened. But, without practice then there may be no chance to become enlightened?? IDK. Is one awareness? And does keeping that awareness clear and empty allow one to see the truth of nature?

Naturally, common sense, such as the idea that "sitting on forums for decades and guessing the path to divinity" is futile, is not welcomed.
 

Then there are social gatherings filled with copium, where people describe their 20 to 30 years of "cultivation," claiming, "I have become a better, kinder person."
 

On 28.04.2025 at 7:32 AM, Tommy said:

Please feel free to say anything. I appreciate replies especially if you are not on my ignore list. 

"Tell me what I want to hear, but not the truth that I need to hear."
 

On 28.04.2025 at 7:05 PM, stirling said:

Few make it this far. 

 

Few.

[Lairg]

Emptiness in meditation is a transitional stage.

 

Initially there are many thoughts and emotions.  Depending on efficiency of technique and refinement of the personality, there are increasing gaps in the thinking/feeling.   These gaps in consciousness can result in time appearing to pass very quickly

 

The gaps, depending upon technique, may contain higher awareness that is not recorded in the brain.

 

Later in the refinement process, the initiate's brain provides some awareness of transcendental processes.

 

Thus the emptiness phase is passed and the initiate learns to be consciously active beyond the planet

 

 

[Cobie]

2 hours ago, Neirong said:

… copium …

 

I learned a new word today.  

 

Quote

… Few.

  … Phew.    
 

 

Edited Tuesday at 10:51 PM by Cobie

[Cobie]

… coming to the rescue

 

Edited Tuesday at 10:56 PM by Cobie

[Tommy]

5 hours ago, Neirong said:

Practicing sitting on the toilet for hours every day will never make you a kickboxing world champion.

I do not believe anyone said anything about sitting on the toilet and trying to become kickboxing champion except for you. 

 

5 hours ago, Neirong said:

Meditation is a broad term. Some people sit and count their breaths as a form of meditation, while others focus on being aware of something.

True. But, at least they are not sitting on the toilet for hours everyday trying to become a kick boxing champion.

 

5 hours ago, Neirong said:

I visit public places with a sense of humor, but it is unfortunate to see all kinds of young people and some not so young wasting their lives on meaningless activities, believing that "it will happen" one day. A few more years of pointless sitting on the toilet, and they expect to become world champions in everything at once, complete with a rainbow body and ascension.
 

Moreover, instead of gaining insights from practice, they engage in endless debates and discussions that are even more futile and pointless than the practice itself.

Public places are for public assembly and discussion. Seeing it as sitting on the toilet is pointless. People need to be social and assemble to talk and discuss and debate. There is a natural need for people to do this. I do doubt that they are all looking to become a kickboxing champion. What they do gain is obviously more than you can see. The Dharma does say a teacher and a sangha is needed in advancing along the path.

 

A sense of humor? It is sometimes good to be able to laugh at oneself???

 

5 hours ago, Neirong said:

Naturally, common sense, such as the idea that "sitting on forums for decades and guessing the path to divinity" is futile, is not welcomed.
 

Then there are social gatherings filled with copium, where people describe their 20 to 30 years of "cultivation," claiming, "I have become a better, kinder person."

The old saying applies. Seek and you shall find. You seek futility in others actions and that is what you will find. If you are trapped by tigers above you and by tigers below you while you hang by the vine. Then is it futile to see the fruit on the vine and taste its beauty?

 

I asked for replies to meet people and learn from them. You see social gathering fill with "copium". I see you here trying to proclaim how superior you are to others. Telling me that sitting on the toilet will not make me a kickboxing champion. Well at least sitting on the toilet I know which way the crap flows. 

 

 

Note: I find there are times when I am like a mirror. What comes in front of me, gets reflected back. I am so sorry for my reflections. Do not worry. I will put you on my ignore list.

Edited yesterday at 01:44 AM by Tommy

[Tommy]

 

[forestofclarity]

Emptiness is a subtle topic that can take a long time working with a teacher and one's own practice to understand and then hopefully experience. It also has different meanings depending on which tradition and which level you are dealing with. In the Tibetan world, for instance, Madhyamaka, Tantra, and Dzogchen all have different meanings to terms. Ultimately, the traditions tend to come together, but they often have different starting points depending on what you are dealing with. Often it starts intellectually, wth an inference, but with the right guidance it should eventually become experiential. 

 

The "sutra" definition generally means that nothing (meaning neither the self nor phenomenon) has a permanent, independent nature (sometimes called true existence or inherent existence, svabhava). Everything has parts, and these parts are dependently originated. For instance, a tree is not self produced, it comes about due to a number of causes and conditions like the sun, soil, waters, etc. When these causes and conditions cease, the tree ceases. In addition, there is nothing "substantial" to the tree--- there is no single, indivisible entity you can point at an label "tree." 

[Keith108]

14 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

I learned a new word today.  

 

  … Phew.    
 

 

See also "hopium".

[doc benway]

Some random thoughts fwiw.

 

Emptiness is not empty. Emptiness is full. Emptiness has the capacity to arise as anything whatsoever. 

In fact, that’s one reason why the abiding nature of being must be empty.

 

One way I’ve found it helpful to think about it is with respect to how I experience my self and others. 

Each one of us is a composite of many different “selves" that are defined in relationship to others.

For example, when dealing with my children, I am a father and I bring to that role physical, psychological, and emotional characteristics and actions that are determined by my upbringing, by my society, culture, teachers, family, friends, and so on. 

And there are many other identities - the father, the son, the lover, the professional, the musician, the addict, and the list goes on and on. The truth is "I am" no one of those things but I can be any of those things depending on circumstances and at some level I am all of those things and more.

 

So is it possible to define who I am, what my “self” is, in isolation, without any relative relationship?

There are exercises that can effectively negate any particular label or identity I may offer as “me."

I’m not that sophisticated in this area but a few examples.

I am not my name, that’s easy - I can change my name but I’m still me.

I am not my profession, I can change jobs, retire, etc… but I am still me.

I am not my body - this one is a little more challenging to negate. I can have a leg, or an arm amputated but “me” is still there.

I could have heart, liver, kidney, and lung transplants - did a new me come with the new organs? No, I’m still “me."

I am not my brain - this one is even trickier but one way to look at it is that my brain cannot exist in isolation. It needs the heart to pump blood, the lungs to oxygenate, sensory organs, nutrition, and so forth, so the brain itself is not me, it needs a lot of other supports.

I am not my body, brain, and mind because I cannot exist independent of my environment - I need food, air, a place to stand, etc...

And this same process applies to all of the identities, be they functional identities or physical entities, that I may refer to as “me."

 

Modern biology, physics, social theory, psychology, and other disciplines already acknowledge the lack of independent, permanent identity and it is expressed in their theories and applications. For example, in biology it is well accepted that there is no such thing as an organism that exists independent of an environment, so organism-environment is accepted as a more precise description than either by itself. Relational quantum mechanics similarly acknowledges the relational nature between any observer and the system under observation. Luhmann’s social systems theory brings this into social systems, and so forth.

 

So emptiness does not refer to absolute absence, it refers to the absence of something very specific - the inability to identify an unchanging and wholly independent essence or core that can be defined for a person or an object as its “self.". When we try to define such a “self” we find that it is connected to other things and cannot stand on its own. By inference, we can see that everything throughout time and space is interconnected in one way or another with everything else so that emptiness is equivalent to wholeness. In the Tibetan Bön tradition they represent this with something called thiglé nyagcig which essentially means a single sphere of light, referring to the interconnected wholeness of being. 

 

 

 

[old3bob]

 

 so is the Buddha refuting all its in house and profound sounding nay sayers?  

[Neirong]

12 hours ago, Tommy said:

I do not believe anyone said anything about sitting on the toilet and trying to become kickboxing champion except for you. 

 

12 hours ago, Tommy said:

True. But, at least they are not sitting on the toilet for hours everyday trying to become a kick boxing champion.

 

I have been lenient with my statements, softening the blunt truth to avoid hurting or destroying anyone's fragile ego.
 

Analogies are a way to convey meaning and can represent anything, such as a kickboxer, pianist, artist, or writer.

Logic should be taught in kindergarten or early schooling; it should be a trivial task for anyone above 7 years old to connect the dots and see the parallel.
 

The problem is that people call their actions meditation, which is often not true in reality, outside of pop esoteric concepts like "I am the mirror," "Indigo Children," or "The Secret."

In reality, sitting on the toilet is more conducive to cultivation than what many do and label as "meditation," especially without a proper teacher or school training and lacking knowledge of emptiness.

Endless demagogy on forums will not unlock proper meditation ability, which requires numerous prerequisites.
 

17 hours ago, Neirong said:

Few.

 

Becoming a kickboxing world champion is still millions of times easier than achieving enlightenment.

 

12 hours ago, Tommy said:

Note: I find there are times when I am like a mirror. What comes in front of me, gets reflected back. I am so sorry for my reflections. Do not worry. I will put you on my ignore list.

 

Fantastic progress with meditation and cultivation right here. Copium at it's finest. 

The irony to see statements like this on a Buddhist forum section, where people are supposed to work on making self "perfect."

[Tommy]

3 hours ago, doc benway said:

Emptiness is not empty. Emptiness is full. Emptiness has the capacity to arise as anything whatsoever. 

In fact, that’s one reason why the abiding nature of being must be empty.

That is a strange statement in that you say that the word emptiness means something else than what I have learned it to mean. I do not say it is false but see it as a matter of what view point one is looking at this.

 

3 hours ago, doc benway said:

Modern biology, physics, social theory, psychology, and other disciplines already acknowledge the lack of independent, permanent identity and it is expressed in their theories and applications. For example, in biology it is well accepted that there is no such thing as an organism that exists independent of an environment, so organism-environment is accepted as a more precise description than either by itself. Relational quantum mechanics similarly acknowledges the relational nature between any observer and the system under observation. Luhmann’s social systems theory brings this into social systems, and so forth.

Quantum mechanics is a strange animal with many tentacles. Cause empty space is not empty but is filled with absolutely everything. Protons and anti-protons can appear from nowhere and just as suddenly disappear. Nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. And yet, there are galaxies that are so far away that they are traveling away from us faster than the speed of light. It can only mean that the space between us is expanding? Not just that they are traveling away from us but also the very space between is expanding? And traveling near the speed of light will slow time to near stand still. So travel between galaxies which are millions of light years apart will take almost no time at all? This universe is indeed strange.

 

3 hours ago, doc benway said:

So emptiness does not refer to absolute absence, it refers to the absence of something very specific - the inability to identify an unchanging and wholly independent essence or core that can be defined for a person or an object as its “self.". When we try to define such a “self” we find that it is connected to other things and cannot stand on its own. By inference, we can see that everything throughout time and space is interconnected in one way or another with everything else so that emptiness is equivalent to wholeness. In the Tibetan Bön tradition they represent this with something called thiglé nyagcig which essentially means a single sphere of light, referring to the interconnected wholeness of being. 

I appreciate the few random thoughts. FWIW. Thanks.

[forestofclarity]

3 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

 so is the Buddha refuting all its in house and profound sounding nay sayers?  

 

Not really. Ajatam, abhutam, akatam, asankhatam. It does not say "asunnatam." 

[stirling]

3 hours ago, Neirong said:

I have been lenient with my statements, softening the blunt truth to avoid hurting or destroying anyone's fragile ego.

 

... because of your superior knowledge? If so, why aren't you sharing it, instead of berating people who ask honest (and important) questions?

 

Quote

The problem is that people call their actions meditation, which is often not true in reality, outside of pop esoteric concepts like "I am the mirror," "Indigo Children," or "The Secret."

 

Why not share your definition?

 

Quote

Endless demagogy on forums will not unlock proper meditation ability, which requires numerous prerequisites.

 

Why not share what you think those prerequisites are?

 

Quote

Becoming a kickboxing world champion is still millions of times easier than achieving enlightenment.

 

It isn't something a person can achieve, is it?

 

Quote

Fantastic progress with meditation and cultivation right here. Copium at it's finest. 

 

This is a thread on the Buddhist part of the board. I'm not sure what cultivation would mean in this context. Care to share?

 

Quote

The irony to see statements like this on a Buddhist forum section, where people are supposed to work on making self "perfect."

 

If someone is working to make the "self" perfect, they definitely aren't working on Buddhism, or enlightenment.

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, forestofclarity said:

 

Not really. Ajatam, abhutam, akatam, asankhatam. It does not say "asunnatam." 

 

sounds greek to me,

 

anyway  "there is" as said by the Buddha is not of negation but of affirmation, which seems to be a four letter word to some Buddhists who sound like they would even negate the life force as it also being a "delusion"?

[Keith108]

26 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

sounds greek to me,

 

anyway  "there is" as said by the Buddha is not of negation but of affirmation, which seems to be a four letter word to some Buddhists who sound like they would even negate the life force as it also being a "delusion"?

 

What is "the life force"? Honest question. 

Edited 9 hours ago by Keith108

[old3bob]

 

with it and awareness of it "may all beings be happy"  What is the smile on the Buddha's face?

Edited 9 hours ago by old3bob

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, Tommy said:

That is a strange statement in that you say that the word emptiness means something else than what I have learned it to mean. I do not say it is false but see it as a matter of what view point one is looking at this.

 

There are many different teachings on emptiness. One error commonly encountered when taking a conceptual approach is to view or conflate emptiness with nihilism. To think emptiness means our lives are an illusion or not real. This is an error of nihilism.

 

This is where meditation practice is so important. When we think about emptiness, there is a tendency to focus on the word’s connotation of absence, of nothingness, of a void. When we meditate we can feel the openness of calmly resting the mind and body. When that experience is not filled with a sense of me - thinking, worrying, judging; when there is just the naked experience of this present moment, this is what emptiness is indicating; and yet the experience of that moment, the vividness of NOW is certainly not nothingness - absolutely everything is there - all the senses and visions and sounds and feelings and infinite potential, and the experience is full and complete, just as it is. You really can’t add or subtract anything.

 

That is the wholeness, the fullness of being and it is ever present when we are clear enough to notice. So I often interject a mention of the fullness of emptiness when it’s being discussed. Emptiness is fullness, eg form is emptiness and emptiness is form (Heart sutra). 

[Keith108]

Quote

old3bob wrote:

with it and awareness of it "may all beings be happy"  What is the smile on the Buddha's face?

 

 

Still not clear about what a life force is, but it sounds like a nice idea!

 

 

Live Words and Dead Words

 

During a Dharma speech, Zen Master Hyo Bong said, "In our practice there are live words and dead words. If you attain live words, you are the same as the Buddha and eminent teachers. If you are attached to dead words, you never get out of the ocean of suffering. Live words and dead words are the same as dust in your eyes. So I ask you, how do you get the dust out of your eyes? Tell me! Tell me!" Hyo Bong was silent for a few moments, and then hit his Zen stick on the table three times and descended from the high stand.

 

1. Live words and dead words: are they the same or different?

2. How do you get the dust out of your eyes?

3. Which are live words: silence or three hits of the Zen stick?

 

COMMENTARY: Who can save Hyo Bong? If you want to save him, you must use a hammer with no handle.

 

Seung Sahn, Whole World is a Single Flower: 365 Kong-ans for Everyday Life with Questions and Commentary by Zen Master Seung Sahn and a Forword by Stephen Mitchell (pp. 332-333). Tuttle Publishing. Kindle Edition. 

 

 

 

Edited 9 hours ago by Keith108