Daoism and Advaita Vedanta - convergence

[Nintendao]

On 5/1/2024 at 12:31 PM, old3bob said:

On 5/1/2024 at 9:33 AM, johndoe2012 said:

On 4/29/2024 at 7:54 PM, dwai said:

Daoism: Stillness reflects a return to the natural state of the Dao. Like still water reflecting the world without distortion, a still mind reveals the true nature of things.

Do you have a source for this?

good question;  I'd also say chapter 25 of the T.T.C. points that way.

 

that  particular part of the quotes wording  that you copied is problematic to me in that mind in itself does not reveal the Tao or transcendent but when clear and still the Tao works (comes to manifest) right through it without any veiling, thus in such a case mind is a matrix for and with zero resistance to such working. 

 

also chapter 15:

 

Do you have the patience to wait till your mud settles and the water is clear?

Can you remain unmoving till the right action arises by itself?”

 

孰能濁以靜之徐清？孰能安以久動之徐生？

[Nintendao]

 

On 4/29/2024 at 7:54 PM, dwai said:

 

 

Feature	Daoism (Reversion)	Vedanta (Nivritti)
Core Concept	Cyclical return to the Dao, the source of all being	Inward return to the Atman (true Self), which is one with Brahman (absolute reality)
Emphasis	Non-attachment to transient phenomena	Renunciation of worldly desires and ego-based identity
Goal	Rediscovering natural simplicity and harmony	Realization of oneness and liberation

 

 

Quote

What is Nivritti? - Definition from Yogapedia

 

Nivritti is a Sanskrit term derived from the root words, ni, meaning “in” or “inward,” and vritti, representing citta vritti, or the mind’s thoughts. The term refers to one of two possible life paths as defined in yoga and Hinduism, with the other possible path being pravritti.

 

Nivritti is the path of turning inward and is, therefore, the path that yogis follow when they focus on spiritual development, prioritizing meditation and contemplation, for example. On this path, attention is directed inward, often with a focus on acceptance and finding connection with God or the Divine. In contrast, pravritti is the path of taking action and living with a focus on the external world.

 

As a principle nivritti / pravritti looks close to one of the uses of the kan / li trigrams:

☵ awareness collected inwards (like pooling water)

☲ attention dispersed outwards (as flame and smoke)

 

On the Daoism side I found a number of characters portraying reversion.

Namely 還 as in Great Reversion Elixir

Quote

The term Great Reversion Elixir 大還丹 was firstly used in e Three Ways Unified and Normalized of the Book of Changes《周易參同契》 Zhouyi Cantong Qi ), which mentioned the term at the end of first chapter. He said, “the attainment of the Reversion Elixir ought to follow the return to the initial state of Spiritual Nature” ( 性 Xing ),

 

Conceptualized in the Daodejing as 復 return, appearing in a dozen chapters especially 16:

Quote

致虛極，Attain to utmost Emptiness.
守靜篤。Cling single-heartedly to interior peace.
萬物並作，While all things are stirring together,
吾以觀復。I only contemplate the Return.
夫物芸芸，For flourishing as they do,
各復歸其根。Each of them will return to its root.
歸根曰靜，To return to the root is to find peace.
是謂復命。To find peace is to fulfill one's destiny.
復命曰常，To fulfill one's destiny is to be constant.
知常曰明。To know the Constant is called Insight.

 

Golden Flower emphasizes 回光 reflection and 逆 inversion.

9.回光之功，全用逆法，注想天心，天心居曰月中。

Quote

^{Thomas Cleary version}

The whole work of turning the light around uses the method of reversal. The beauties of the highest heavens and the marvels of the sublimest realms are all within the heart: this is where the perfectly open and aware spirit concentrates.

 

Edited May 8 by Nintendao

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Nintendao said:

On the Daoism side I found a number of characters portraying reversion.

good job. Notice how every word in Daoism comes from a historical proven source, chapter and verse.  whereas '"Advaita Vedanta" language comes from nowhere;). what would that tell about "Advaita Vedanta" to a reasonable man?

[Nintendao]

5 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

good job. Notice how every word in Daoism comes from a historical proven source, chapter and verse.  whereas '"Advaita Vedanta" language comes from nowhere;). what would that tell about "Advaita Vedanta" to a reasonable man?

 

Aw i'm sure there's plenty of Vedic referential integrity, I'm just relatively useless at Sanskrit, so indulged in relying on Yogapedia 

[dwai]

8 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

good job. Notice how every word in Daoism comes from a historical proven source, chapter and verse.  whereas '"Advaita Vedanta" language comes from nowhere;). what would that tell about "Advaita Vedanta" to a reasonable man?

It says a lot more about people who spout off without adequate knowledge on the matter of Advaita Vedanta

Advaita Vedanta is the teachings contained in the Upanishads - which are part of the Vedic canon. 

[dwai]

10 hours ago, Nintendao said:

 

As a principle nivritti / pravritti looks close to one of the uses of the kan / li trigrams:

☵ awareness collected inwards (like pooling water)

☲ attention dispersed outwards (as flame and smoke)

The mantra Om is basically a method of this inward collecting process. Om comprises of three syllables and the fourth part being silence - A, U, M (pronounced in Sanskrit as aah, ooh, mmm ). It is a model of the everything (aah) collapsing (ooh) into a singularity (mmm), and then silence/stillness/emptiness. A represents the material universe, U represents the process of returning/reversion, M represents the singularity and silence is emptiness. 

[forestofemptiness]

10 hours ago, Nintendao said:

 

Aw i'm sure there's plenty of Vedic referential integrity, I'm just relatively useless at Sanskrit, so indulged in relying on Yogapedia 

 

Of course, Sanskrit is one of the most precise, well defined languages, and Vedanta is one of the most conservative and intellectually rigorous spiritual traditions. I think TT is just engaging in a bit of spiritual fascism or is joking. The only comparable language and widespread spiritual tradition I am aware of is Judaism and Hebrew. The Tibetan Buddhists come as a close second, since their language over time has been molded by Buddhism. 

 

 

[blue eyed snake]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

The mantra Om is basically a method of this inward collecting process. Om comprises of three syllables and the fourth part being silence - A, U, M (pronounced in Sanskrit as aah, ooh, mmm ). It is a model of the everything (aah) collapsing (ooh) into a singularity (mmm), and then silence/stillness/emptiness. A represents the material universe, U represents the process of returning/reversion, M represents the singularity and silence is emptiness. 

 

thank you for this concise formulation   

_/|\_

[stirling]

10 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

good job. Notice how every word in Daoism comes from a historical proven source, chapter and verse.  whereas '"Advaita Vedanta" language comes from nowhere;). what would that tell about "Advaita Vedanta" to a reasonable man?

 

Broad brush there, friend. We could get into a boring discussion of who says what, but who has the patience for that? Yes it DOES come from nowhere, just like ALL teachings about the nature of reality.  Arguing for some kind of exceptionalism for one tradition or another is just nonsense, IMHO.

 

What actually matters here is that the direct pointing can be verified by another teacher who understands it, IMHO. Advaita is just chock full of gems from Nisargadatta Maharaj, Ramana Maharshi, etc. that point directly at the important matter at hand, and with great simplicity and clarity. There are some who will resonate with that and get it in this way. 

 

A nice example:

 

Quote

With complete stillness of mind, samsara will disappear root and branch. Only stillness of mind can accomplish the end and nothing else. - Ramana Maharshi

 

Mic drop!

[Taoist Texts]

29 minutes ago, stirling said:

 Arguing for some kind of exceptionalism for one tradition or another is just nonsense, IMHO.

i am not quite sure what are you trying to say here Sterling-sensei: is your own tradition of Buddhism quite equal to Pastafarianism?

3 hours ago, dwai said:

Advaita Vedanta is the teachings contained in the Upanishads - which are part of the Vedic canon. 

Oh i had no idea, please forgive my ignorance! But... err, what exactly is its teaching and which exact Upanishad contains it?

[dwai]

14 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Oh i had no idea, please forgive my ignorance! But... err, what exactly is its teaching and which exact Upanishad contains it?

Depends on what you want to learn  

There are several methods/practices of inquiry in different Upanishads. Start with the Mandukya Upanishad if you’re feeling lucky. It covers what is called the avasthatraya method - and goes into a deep exploration of Om. 

[old3bob]

16 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

i am not quite sure what are you trying to say here Sterling-sensei: is your own tradition of Buddhism quite equal to Pastafarianism?

Oh i had no idea, please forgive my ignorance! But... err, what exactly is its teaching and which exact Upanishad contains it?

 

all of the (many) Upanishads point the way,  there are 10 major ones (depending on sources) often referred to and which can be easily found in commonly published books or most libraries.  (and of course online)

Edited May 8 by old3bob

[Taoist Texts]

9 minutes ago, dwai said:

Start with the Mandukya Upanishad if you’re feeling lucky.

I always do and i will, thank you very much

but in the meantime do you think you can answer the question above?

what exactly is AV?

Examples:

Daoism is joining Dao

Buddhism is relinquishing desires

Christianity is believing in Christ

AV is..............................................?

(please fill in the blank as to what differentiates the core AV from other teachings)

4 minutes ago, old3bob said:

all of the (many) Upanishads point the way,

sorry for repeating myself. what exactly is the AV way? what do you do on that way? what do you get on that way? you guys surely must know the answer but somehow you keep ignoring the question;)

[old3bob]

 

By the way many great masters in many great traditions have said that there's is the truest,  for instance the historic Buddha said that, and so have various "Hindu" related ones,  so all one can do is take all of  it with grains of salt.  (and find out first hand for yourself or what turns your crank)

Edited May 7 by old3bob

[old3bob]

12 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

I always do and i will, thank you very much

but in the meantime do you think you can answer the question above?

what exactly is AV?

Examples:

Daoism is joining Dao

Buddhism is relinquishing desires

Christianity is believing in Christ

AV is..............................................?

(please fill in the blank as to what differentiates the core AV from other teachings)

sorry for repeating myself. what exactly is the AV way? what do you do on that way? what do you get on that way? you guys surely must know the answer but somehow you keep ignoring the question;)

 

it is one of the major schools in Hinduism which has several other major schools or branches; a little bit of study will start to answer your question - which is not unlike asking what is Buddhism which also has several major schools.

Edited May 7 by old3bob

[stirling]

55 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

i am not quite sure what are you trying to say here Sterling-sensei: is your own tradition of Buddhism quite equal to Pastafarianism?

 

Even a blind pig occasionally finds a truffle.

 

I would argue that any dharma (using an all-inclusive definition - see dharma definitions here) is a vehicle to enlightenment. All experiences in life are constantly pointing out the dualities and attachments of our existence. Really, for someone who has realized that every moment is a teaching, and is paying deep attention to experience, no tradition is really necessary, though it might be the "long" way 'round.

 

As a child, long before meeting Eastern religion/philosophy, I had already been made aware that there was a fundamental problem with my ideas about reality. I think this is common amongst those who seek.

 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

what exactly is AV?

 

Advaita Vedanta is the Non-Dual teaching contained in Vedanta (aka Upanishads). 

Advaita Vedanta posits that this (material world) is transitory—constantly changing. But underlying this, there is a changeless reality—which is Existence itself, Consciousness/Awareness itself, and bliss itself. Furthermore, you—the limited being who seems to live and die and suffer in the process—are none other than that changeless reality.

 

There is no need for major alchemical processes to transform the individual from a limited being to anything else—you are that changeless infinite awareness right here and now, only that you have forgotten it due to conditioning (society, experiences, etc.). All you need is someone to point you to yourself and help you realize your true nature. Once you realize your true nature, all your suffering, cravings, and aversions will fall away, and you can become free. 

 

What does one practice in Advaita Vedanta?

 

There are 3 main processes - 

1. Listening (sravana)

2. Contemplating (manana)

3. Meditating (nidhidhyasana)

 

How does one accomplish these processes?

 

1. Listening - find a realized teacher and listen to their teachings

2. contemplating - Take the teachings you're listening to and contemplate on them - how they relate to you, how you are able to analyze your own experiences to confirm empirically the teachings. In this, there are several approaches (called vicharas or analyses) where you use apply the teachings to separate the real from the unreal (viveka) depending on which one is given to you by your teacher -

- The Analysis of the Five Sheaths (panchakosha viveka) 

- The Analysis of the Seer and the Seen (Drik-Drishya viveka)

- The Analysis of Waking, Dreaming and Deep Sleep (avastha-traya viveka) 

3. Meditating - Integrate the experiential knowledge you develop as you proceed through the first two steps into a continuous meditation on the nature of reality (not the same kind of meditation as yogic meditation)

 

 

Edited May 7 by dwai
Added more stuff

[dwai]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Advaita Vedanta is the Non-Dual teaching contained in Vedanta (aka Upanishads). 

Advaita Vedanta posits that this (material world) is transitory—constantly changing. But underlying this, there is a changeless reality—which is Existence itself, Consciousness/Awareness itself, and bliss itself. Furthermore, you—the limited being who seems to live and die and suffer in the process—are none other than that changeless reality.

 

There is no need for major alchemical processes to transform the individual from a limited being to anything else—you are that changeless infinite awareness right here and now, only that you have forgotten it due to conditioning (society, experiences, etc.). All you need is someone to point you to yourself and help you realize your true nature. Once you realize your true nature, all your suffering, cravings, and aversions will fall away, and you can become free. 

 

What does one practice in Advaita Vedanta?

 

There are 3 main processes - 

1. Listening (sravana)

2. Contemplating (manana)

3. Meditating (nidhidhyasana)

 

How does one accomplish these processes?

 

1. Listening - find a realized teacher and listen to their teachings

2. contemplating - Take the teachings you're listening to and contemplate on them - how they relate to you, how you are able to analyze your own experiences to confirm empirically the teachings. In this, there are several approaches (called vicharas or analyses) where you use apply the teachings to separate the real from the unreal (viveka) depending on which one is given to you by your teacher -

- The Analysis of the Five Sheaths (panchakosha viveka) 

- The Analysis of the Seer and the Seen (Drik-Drishya viveka)

- The Analysis of Waking, Dreaming and Deep Sleep (avastha-traya viveka) 

3. Meditating - Integrate the experiential knowledge you develop as you proceed through the first two steps into a continuous meditation on the nature of reality (not the same kind of meditation as yogic meditation)

 

 

PS—The approach used, and its teachings are correlated with the Upanishads. For example, the Madukya Upanishad employs the Avastha-traya viveka approach (Waking/Dreaming/Deep Sleep). Usually the teacher will temper their teaching based on their student evaluation (for some a single approach will work, for others multiple approaches might be needed).

Additionally, there is also the prospect of a student not being ready for this kind of inquiry—they might have what is called "chitta mala" (impurities in their mind) or "chitta viskepa" (scattered mind). Different techniques are recommended to remedy these as preliminary steps (which might include yogic meditation, hatha yoga, service, mantras, etc.). Once the mind is sufficiently purified, then the teachings of Vedanta will be absorbed properly. 

Edited May 7 by dwai

[old3bob]

 

if you are just and only asking about AV then ok, but again it is just one of the schools of "Hinduism" which is vast !  And btw there are other schools that also refer to the Upanishads since no particular school has a monopoly on them.  Not unlike in Daoism where no  particular school owns the T.T.C..

[forestofemptiness]

22 hours ago, stirling said:

A nice example:

 

 

Mic drop!

 

So all essence, no function? 

[stirling]

43 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

So all essence, no function? 

Honestly, I’m not sure what you mean by “essence“ or “function“ in this case. Could you elaborate? 🙏

[forestofemptiness]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

Honestly, I’m not sure what you mean by “essence“ or “function“ in this case. Could you elaborate? 🙏

 

Once when all the monks were out picking tea leaves the Master addressed Yangshan: "All day as we were picking tea leaves I have heard your voice, but I have not seen you yourself. Show me your original self."

Yangshan thereupon shook the tea tree.

The Master: "You have attained only the function, not the substance."

Yangshan: "I do not know how you yourself would answer the question."

The Master was silent for a time.

Yangshan: "You, Master, have attained only the substance, not the function."

Master Guishan: "I absolve you from twenty blows!"

[Forestgreen]

21 hours ago, dwai said:

Different techniques are recommended to remedy these as preliminary steps (which might include yogic meditation, hatha yoga, service, mantras, etc.). 

But excluding transformative alchemical methods?

[dwai]

7 minutes ago, Forestgreen said:

But excluding transformative alchemical methods?

It depends on the purpose of said methods. AV doesn't subscribe to the view that the individual has to transform into something else. You are already the Absolute Reality, even if you don't know it yet. The problem is ignorance, so the solution is knowledge (as a direct realization of the Truth). 

 

If the alchemical methods will help you focus your mind and remove its impurities; by all means, try them.

 

The problem with alchemical methods is that they have tended to have purported objectives such as creating a "rainbow body" or transforming into something more significant—meaning something that you are not today but will become in the future. That perspective is erroneous and will divert the seeker from realizing their true nature and venture into what can be called "immortality projects" - which add to the ignorance that veils our true nature from us, therefore exacerbating the primary problem.

[stirling]

1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

Once when all the monks were out picking tea leaves the Master addressed Yangshan: "All day as we were picking tea leaves I have heard your voice, but I have not seen you yourself. Show me your original self."

Yangshan thereupon shook the tea tree.

The Master: "You have attained only the function, not the substance."

Yangshan: "I do not know how you yourself would answer the question."

The Master was silent for a time.

Yangshan: "You, Master, have attained only the substance, not the function."

Master Guishan: "I absolve you from twenty blows!"

 

Of course, no practice enlightens. Confusing a practice with illumination is problematic, but to practice by resting in awareness, where the mind is empty and still, IS cessation (nirodha), the 3rd Noble Truth. There is no difference between the mind where it is still and enlightened mind, even though there is no realization of it. It is only re-identification with the contrived thoughts of the mind and  becoming a subject again that cessation is lost.

 

Therefore, in Maharshi's case, he presents the very essence of practice in many traditions. 

 

As Dogen would say:

 

Quote

When you practice zazen with the whole body, speech, and mind, even for a short time, the entire universe immediately becomes the posture of Buddha. The whole sky immediately becomes enlightenment. It enables all beings everywhere, in Heaven, on Earth, or even in Hell, to increase their dharma joy. This dharma joy is their original nature. It enables all beings to be Buddhas. It renews their awakening. - Dogen

 

.

Edited May 8 by stirling