The Idiots Way

[old3bob]

11 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

Regarding effort. 

 

at the end of the quote he says, "...they will surely go to hell"

 

 

Wrong,  and take profound sounding quote with lots of grains of salt, for "they"  will surely go some where on the wheel (thus realms A-Z) which is not based on another human beings judgement.

Edited February 29 by old3bob

[idiot_stimpy]

Quote

... The Actual Nature of Mind ...

 

Namo guru mañjuśrīye! 

 

The actual nature of things is inconceivable and inexpressible. Yet, for those fortunate individuals who seek to penetrate the profound meaning of dharmatā, I shall offer here a few words by way of illustration. 

 

What we call the essence of mind is the actual face of unconditioned pure awareness, recognized through receiving the guru’s blessings and instructions. If you wonder what this is like, it is empty in its essence, beyond conceptual reference; it is cognizant by nature, spontaneously present; and it is all-pervasive and unobstructed in its compassionate energy. 

This is the pure awareness (rigpa) in which the three kāyas are inseparable. It is just as the vidyādhara Garab Dorje says in his Final Testament: This awareness, which has no concrete existence as anything at all, Is completely unobstructed in the arising of what are its aspects. 

To summarize, the actual nature of mind — the way it has always been, in and of itself — is innate pure awareness, unfabricated and unrestricted. When this is explained in negative terms, it is not something to be apprehended, nor is it a nonexistent void. Nor is it some combination of these two or some third option that is neither. This is the view of the absence of any identifiable existence, the fact that it cannot be conceptualized in any way with the thought “It is like this.” 

 

When explained in more positive, experiential terms, it is said to be manifestly empty, lucidly clear, vividly pure, perfectly even, expansively open, and so on. This can be illustrated using similes. Without limit or center, it is like space. In its limitless clarity, it is like sunlight flooding the sky. Transparent inside and out, it is like a crystal ball. In its freedom from clinging and attachment, it is like the traceless path of a bird in flight. And, beyond arising and ceasing, it is like the sky. 

 

To dispel any doubts or misunderstandings that might arise from this instruction, it is described as the great clarity that is beyond partiality, the great emptiness of freedom from conceptual reference, the great union that cannot be separated, and so on. 
The meaning here cannot be pointed out in words, for it is inexpressible; it cannot be known with ordinary modes of consciousness and is therefore inconceivable; and as it is does not fall into any extreme, it is the great freedom from elaboration. In the end, it is beyond all expressions, such as, it is all and everything; it is not all; everything lies within it; or does not, and so on. 

It must therefore remain an individual experience, to be realized through self-knowing awareness.

 

~  JAMGÖN MIPHAM

 

Title: "Beyond the ordinary mind: Dzogchen, Rimé, and the Path of Perfect Wisdom"
Selected works by Patrul Rinpoche, Jamgön Mipham, and other masters"
Translated and introduced by Adam Pearcey
Padmakara Translation Group 
Shambhala Publications

 

[idiot_stimpy]

Quote

The essence of Great Perfection practice

O sir, the essence of Great Perfection practice is this: 
All phenomena of samsara and enlightenment 
are only your own mind’s magical display. 

Primordially, your mind’s nature lacks substantiality; 
It is unconditioned empty luminosity, 
the essential nature of awareness. 
It dwells primordially and eternally 
as dharmakaya’s essence. 

Yet not recognizing your own nature, 
transitory dualistic clinging creates delusion, 
Deceptive attachment to perceptions of happiness 
and suffering in samsara and enlightenment. 

In fact, your mind’s nature transcends 
the bounds of good and evil, hope and fear. 
In this space of great emptiness, 
free from transition and change, 
Self-manifest awareness is present knowing. 
This relaxed settling in the uncontrived natural state 
is the view, and is also the key to meditation. 

When meditating, as soon as thoughts 
arise from awareness’s dynamic energy, 
Use mindfulness to identify them: 
Self-arising, self-liberating, like waves on water. Recognize them as such and let them go without prolongation. 
“Meditation” is just the meager term 
we use to designate this. 

Continuously maintain boundless conduct free of action. Discard the six collections of consciousness; 
leave them as they are, without fixation. 
Do not hope for a result at a later date. 

It is in the present itself: reaching the unassailable state, attainment of self-mastery.
I, Jigdral Yeshé Dorjé, wrote this, corresponding to the request of Ngawang Zöpa. May this virtue become the cause for simultaneous realization and liberation!

 

[Brad M]

These quotes are great.  One thought I had on "effort" is that great satisfaction can be gotten in life through hard work, discipline, getting things done, and accomplishing something great.  From these quotes, one might get the impression that no effort equals no doing, and visa versa.  My view is a little different, that unlocking open awareness is the path to achieving ones ultimate potential in life, basically by doing without doing.  

 

I am still monkeying with the lock, however : )

 

[idiot_stimpy]

Doing without doing, reminds me of the Daoist Wu-wei, being, actionless action or effortless action in accordance with the natural law of the Dao.  

 

Quote

 In The Tantra of Perfect Creativity, it is said,

Whoever abides in nonaction,
Even though he has a demon’s body,
His mind is buddha.

 

Edited February 29 by idiot_stimpy

[idiot_stimpy]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

Wrong,  and take profound sounding quote with lots of grains of salt, for "they"  will surely go some where on the wheel (thus realms A-Z) which is not based on another human beings judgement.

 

Reading the below is sure frightening for me.

 

Quote

THE BARDO OF BECOMING

Consciousness is moved only by wind; it is impeded only by the unchangeable alpha-purity of the vajra-seat and also by the mother’s womb. We cannot be obstructed by earth, rock, mountain, tree trunks, or any other solid object—we can move through everything without hindrance. In this bardo we have a mental body that is inimical to fleshly forms or material bodies. Appearances are like dream, existing merely as labels. Through karma we can take part in incongruous and miraculous events. We can see only those various beings of the bardo similar to ourselves and other samsaric beings; and, possessing the divine eye, we know the likes and dislikes in the streams of consciousness of still-living beings on the other side.

We may hear our parents or children talking or monks reciting texts, but when we try to speak to those on the other side, they cannot hear our voices, and they do not respond. We may then think that everyone hates us, and aversion to them arises. When we are among them at the dining table, for example, no one serves us food. Neither the sun nor any other light casts our shadow. We leave no footprint in the sand and no imprint of wet feet. Gradually the realization emerges that we are dead, and deep fear and pain engulf us.

We may go to seek refuge among lamas and monks, but we discover that they are performing false rituals, their samaya vows have been broken and not repaired, and they ignore creative and fulfilment stage training. Especially when we see their avarice, we feel that they are fooling us and are the agents of the lower realms, and that we will generate only wrong views by association with them. The desire to take rebirth soon grows strong, and we search everywhere for an entrance to a womb. But until the karma of life in the bardo of becoming is exhausted, there is no possibility of finding that womb.

The vision of our death recurs every seven days, and due to the recurrence of the intense suffering of that event for the dead, the tradition insists on performing death ceremonies every week for seven weeks. At that time, we hear the four fearful sounds—rumbling landslide, billowing ocean, blazing fire, and cyclonic storm. The three poisons (hatred, desire, and jealousy) appear as an abyss of embodiment, and we feel intolerable panic at the prospect of falling into it. Feelings toward the embodiment of consciousness, with its impulsions, conceptualization, and name and form are all felt to be of the nature of intense suffering. Existence blown by the winds of karma, without an earth, is like a feather blown by the breeze.

Consciousness, fickle and misty, is seven times clearer and more alert than before, so that the seven weeks of the bardo seem very long. During the first three weeks, our previous bodily form is sustained, and we behave in much the same way as before, but even that is unpredictable. When we are sitting down, we suddenly feel as if we must move, and when we are happy, sudden panic attacks may afflict us, or we may have other such unpredictable experiences.
After the third week, we experience the particular behaviour of beings in the realm in which we are going to take rebirth. If we are to be reborn as a pigeon, for example, we feel the beak, wings, and talons of the pigeon. Sometimes we feel we have half the previous life’s body and half of the next life’s body.

The signs of rebirth in each of the six realms are as follows: if we are going to take birth as a god or a man, we will hold our heads high and gaze upward; if we are going to take birth as a demon or animal, we feel an inclination to look sideways or to the side; if we are going to take birth as a hell-being or hungry ghost, then we cast our eyes downward.
The color signs are as follows: inclining toward hell, we see black light and a burnt tree stump; toward the hungry ghost realm, we see wafting black wool; toward the animal realm, we see an ocean of blood; toward the human realm, we see white light; toward the demonic realm, green light; and toward the god realm, white light about a meter in length. We should recognize these signs immediately for what they are and understand our destiny, and without suppressing this knowledge, and recognizing the place of our putative rebirth, the dharmakaya is revealed as the pure presence that abides in the ground of being. With our confidence in pure presence, the basic clear light and the primordial alpha-purity of the dharmakaya appear to us again, and through these indications, which are like the material for repairing a broken irrigation ditch so that the water flows smoothly, we gain liberation.

Just as in the miracle of instantly reaching a place by the mere thought of going there, those who can see the door of the Dzogchen view will understand the bardo consciousness and will recollect the pure fields of nirmanakaya emanation of the ten directions. With a strong aspiration to be in those fields, the tendency to remain in the bardo existence dissolves, and as we enter the flow of blessings of true reality, the pressure to reincarnate is released, and taking birth in a pureland, we attain buddha.

 

[old3bob]

Karma can not be cheated but it is not the only factor,  for in most all religions that report of a Supreme Being that Being says,  "Fear Not".   Btw, note that in some depictions of the wheel there is a Buddha in every realm and also in the realm beyond realms.

 

"Among the six realms, the human realm is considered to offer the best opportunity to practice the dharma. In some representations of the wheel, there is a buddha or bodhisattva depicted within each realm, trying to help sentient beings find their way to nirvana".

 

I'm not a Buddhist but I get this saying...

Edited February 29 by old3bob

[thelerner]

To me the benefit of the Idiots Way, or rather the Wise Idiots way is they live happily with uncertainty.  Where smarter and cleverer people are 100% convinced of something, they are not.  Not that they're skeptical, they have wiggle room, enough uncertainty to know things can be probable but not certain.  Thus they avoid most 'isms or at least join but never die hard believers.

 

I've seen very intelligent people get involved in cults and foolishness because their intelligence worked overtime to provide rationales.  Especially when the hook is, only the smartest will understand this. 

 

Whereas the wise idiot lives with fewer thoughts and judgements. Very comfortable with- I don't know.  

 

 

addon> Think I'm halfway to becoming a wise Idiot.

Edited March 2 by thelerner

[ChiDragon]

On 2/24/2024 at 8:58 PM, idiot_stimpy said:

Relaxing through not doing anything.

Nothing needs to be done.

 

 

This is what Wu Wei is all about.
無為(Wu Wei):  Let nature take its course. So, just let it be!

[old3bob]

On 2/29/2024 at 1:58 PM, ChiDragon said:

This is what Wu Wei is all about.
無為(Wu Wei):  Let nature take its course. So, just let it be!

 

that saying about letting nature take its course when human beings or other beings are involved needs context, for instance shall madmen be allowed to run amuck with destruction?  If there was only the most simple elemental nature and no human, astral, or casual beings in "nature" then yes only the most elemental type of nature will take its course with no beings involved who have aspects of what is natural or Dharmic to them as more complex beings. 

Edited March 3 by old3bob

[steve]

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

... for instance shall madmen be allowed to run amuck with destruction?

 

This question belies a pervasive misunderstanding of wu wei.

As madmen run amok, heroes vault into action! If she is able to prevent the carnage, of course the hero can and will do so. If she can't prevent it, of course she can and will respond appropriately, assuming she is capable and aware. This is the natural flow of humanity. Shit happens and from our perspective they are judged as good or bad. We react in a manner that accords with our biology, environment, psychology, and conditioning. We must acknowledge that there are people who do horrible things for complex reasons. It is not really a matter of whether it 'shall be allowed,' the unfortunate fact is that it happens all the time and has been happening since the earliest times in recorded history. Wu wei does not mean to ignore, allow, or permit things you judge to be harmful or wrong through some sort of spiritually misguided inaction. Rather, it is to allow the natural and appropriate reaction to express itself without allowing all of our conditioned baggage, second guessing, ulterior motives, emotional dysfunction, and so forth to get in the way of the appropriate response. If a child is drowning in a pool the natural response from a healthy adult will be to help. This is the natural flow that is to be allowed. It would be an unnatural act to interfere with that natural response and do nothing, IMO. For this reason, my functional translation (right or wrong) of wu wei is more along the lines of "non-interference" than "non-action."

 

Quote

  If there was only the most simple elemental nature and no human, astral, or casual beings in "nature" then yes only the most elemental type of nature will take its course with no beings involved who have aspects of what is natural or Dharmic to them as more complex beings. 

 

The flow of nature includes human nature, IMO, it is pervasive and applies to all beings. This is how I interpret and implement Daoist praxis in my life. Even animals do things that we could easily judge as horrible to each other, and to us. Understandably, the closer we are to the living creature, the more easily it is to judge their behavior as good or bad. Consequently we judge ourselves, and each other, the harshest. 

 

[old3bob]

19 hours ago, steve said:

 

This question belies a pervasive misunderstanding of wu wei.

As madmen run amok, heroes vault into action! If she is able to prevent the carnage, of course the hero can and will do so. If she can't prevent it, of course she can and will respond appropriately, assuming she is capable and aware. This is the natural flow of humanity. Shit happens and from our perspective they are judged as good or bad. We react in a manner that accords with our biology, environment, psychology, and conditioning. We must acknowledge that there are people who do horrible things for complex reasons. It is not really a matter of whether it 'shall be allowed,' the unfortunate fact is that it happens all the time and has been happening since the earliest times in recorded history. Wu wei does not mean to ignore, allow, or permit things you judge to be harmful or wrong through some sort of spiritually misguided inaction. Rather, it is to allow the natural and appropriate reaction to express itself without allowing all of our conditioned baggage, second guessing, ulterior motives, emotional dysfunction, and so forth to get in the way of the appropriate response. If a child is drowning in a pool the natural response from a healthy adult will be to help. This is the natural flow that is to be allowed. It would be an unnatural act to interfere with that natural response and do nothing, IMO. For this reason, my functional translation (right or wrong) of wu wei is more along the lines of "non-interference" than "non-action."

 

 

The flow of nature includes human nature, IMO, it is pervasive and applies to all beings. This is how I interpret and implement Daoist praxis in my life. Even animals do things that we could easily judge as horrible to each other, and to us. Understandably, the closer we are to the living creature, the more easily it is to judge their behavior as good or bad. Consequently we judge ourselves, and each other, the harshest. 

 

 

Btw, I'm not looking for your judgement.  I'd say for wu-wei to be in effect intrinsic Dharma has to be in effect, and not most forms of  conditioning as you mention. Shit only happens when intrinsic Dharma is not in effect with beings.  In a pure realm Dharma and karma actions/results are instantaneous & spontaneous, thus shit can not take place there;  same with beings in a pure state. 

I'd also say  that "natural flow" has two directions not just one, for example one is like the effect of water following per the laws of gravity or the laws of samsara, the other is going against the lesser laws of gravity or samsara.  (thus the need for definition per context as I mentioned earlier)

[steve]

5 hours ago, old3bob said:

Btw, I'm not looking for your judgement

 

No judgement old3bob, just responding to your comment on wu wei. If my comments are not helpful or not wanted please ignore.

[idiot_stimpy]

Quote

Happily Remain in the State of Unchanging Original Clarity

 

The Base

The actual situation of the mind, the mind itself, or the truth (snying po) of the primordial ground or basis, bodhicitta, the mind as it is, is from the very beginning uninfluenced in any way by the causal force of discriminating between good and bad, and thus is self-present.

 

The Path

It is free of any meditation which belongs to a path and thus is self-liberating.

 

The Result

It is free of the accomplishments of the result and thus is complete from the very beginning.

 

The Direct Encounter

It is free of communication by language and thus is beyond the realms of signs.

 

It is not accessible to measurement by thought and thus is the great freedom from the intellect.

 

It is completely beyond all the elaborations of the eight limiting positions and thus is the great inseparability of awareness and emptiness.

 

Whatever occurs, it remains happily in the state of unchanging original clarity and thus is self-liberating in its own place.

 

Ayu Khandro

The Record of the Heart-felt Advice of the Dakini, Indestructible Glorious Lamp translated by James Low; thank You!

 

Painting by our friend Kai Konrad; thank You!

 

Headings added by pema; the Tibetan text and its translations in many languages are available here:

https://simplybeing.co.uk/.../heartfelt-advice-ayu-khandro/

 

[idiot_stimpy]

[silent thunder]

3 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

 

[stirling]

4 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

 

The "fruit" of Togal. It sounds crazy, but of course, this is precisely how it is in this moment.

Edited March 5 by stirling

[steve]

@idiot_stimpy

Thanks for this wonderful thread!

Is this most recent post quoted from Longchenpa?

[idiot_stimpy]

1 hour ago, steve said:

@idiot_stimpy

Thanks for this wonderful thread!

Is this most recent post quoted from Longchenpa?

 

Thank you Steve, yes from the precious treasury of the way of abiding.

 

https://ia601205.us.archive.org/2/items/Longchenpa-ThePreciousTreasuryOfTheWayOfAbiding/Longchenpa.PreciousTreasuryOfTheWayOfAbiding_text.pdf

[Elysium]

But how can one reach to an effortless state without effort to get there? Seems like a paradox to me.

[Forestgreen]

37 minutes ago, Elysium said:

But how can one reach to an effortless state without effort to get there? Seems like a paradox to me.

Wang Mu, in Foundations of internal alchemy, writes that there is a substantial doing ( youwei) before the stage of non-doing (wuwei). 

 

Added: Once you get there, it is indeed effortless. Like drilling, once through, there is no resistance. 

Edited March 5 by Forestgreen
Added stuff.

[idiot_stimpy]

Pray to Guru Rinpoché, then settle within the state of your mind and the guru’s mind inseparable.

 

In the relaxed openness of your mind’s uncontrived state of naturalness,

Do not stop, cultivate, accept, or reject thoughts.

Relax without grasping; whatever arises will be self-liberated.

 

This is the ultimate guru. Abide in that natural state!

 

It is not a new attainment; it has never been separate from you.

Although not separate, you did not recognize it, which is delusion.

 

Now there is already endless delusion

So whatever thoughts arise, look directly at their essence.

When you look, you will not see it; cast the searcher aside.

The place where you cast it is dharmakaya’s essential nature, all-pervasive emptiness.

In that place, where can you go or stay?

 

Understand this, realize its meaning, and sustain it in practice.

The result of this practice is to be without hope or fear.

Having attained confidence in this has made this old man satisfied.

 

Dudjom Rinpoche

Heart Advice in Wisdom Nectar

[idiot_stimpy]

 

 

 

[silent thunder]

I'm re-minded of the zen saying regarding awakening.

 

Awakening occurs as if by accident.

Practice makes us more accident prone.

 

Realization for my own local awareness arose in the midst of the most paralyzing depression.  As i lay down in complete and utter despondency and released all notion of living, dying or association with anything... after releasing everything...  

 

what remained was true nature

 

paradoxical that in complete surrender of any notion of will or desire for life or even death

absolute bouyancy of true nature should finally be revealed

[steve]

18 hours ago, Elysium said:

But how can one reach to an effortless state without effort to get there? Seems like a paradox to me.

 

It does seem paradoxical but that is largely a matter of unfamiliarity.

At the end of a long, exhausting day of work how much effort is needed to drop into a comfortable chair and simply rest?

We are so familiar with being focused on our actions, our inner voice, our thoughts and feelings that we pay no attention whatsoever to what it is that gives rise to all of that. What this practice invites us to do is to release our infatuation with the movement and activity of the body and connect deeply with the stillness that is always, already there. Release the obsession with the inner narration and judgement and connect deeply with the silence that hosts all sound, both inner and outer. Notice the mind's endless ruminations and release into the spaciousness that has no argument with anything that arises.

As we become more familiar with this ground of experience, we begin to trust in it and in doing so can discover something very special. Describing it and debating it have some value but experiencing it through patient and committed practice is the only way to truly get a taste of what these teachings are telling us.