I started meditating to relax and I ended up sobbing with rage - am I stange?

[BigSkyDiamond]

26 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

That´s quite the list.  I don´t want to argue about the accuracy of any of your assertions, but would like to point out the "gotcha" flavor of your post. It´s as if you´re saying "you say you shouldn´t hold beliefs about meditations but I found all of these beliefs so you must be a hypocrite."  Is that the message you meant to convey?  

 

Few people respond well when backed into a rhetorical corner.  Instead they throw up our hands, roll their eyes, send face palm emojis.  Marriage counselers sometimes ask their clients a pointed question: do you want to be right or do you want to get along? You likely aren´t interested in marriage with Apech or Taomeow (a mutual feeling, I´m sure) but you might want to cultivate good relationships.  Speaking for mself, I know that each of them has worlds of experience in meditation and spiritual practice.  They have much to teach me.

 

the post is to illustrate using examples, what beliefs about meditation look like.

And as stated, it is for discussion about the beliefs and views, not about people posting.

 

my interest is discussing, clarifying, exploring, learning about, and understanding the beliefs.

it is not about the people.

 

every voice and view on this forum has something to offer.
Disagreement and different view points are part and parcel of any robust discussion.

 

 

Edited Sunday at 10:05 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[Cobie]

 

1 hour ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

… more beliefs about meditation / all are from this thread …

from your list, these are the ones I like:



silent sitting, uniting with the Dao

from the heart  for religious reasons to clear the mind

sit and empty the mind

meditation is about seeing things as they really are

meditation can bring clarity, balance, order, and harmony

meditation is beneficial for calming down when upset

 

meditation can be simple and straightforward 

meditation is being 

awareness is flow, not forcing or hoarding

 

Edited Sunday at 10:04 PM by Cobie

[Nungali]

On 8/10/2025 at 3:17 AM, Apech said:

 

Unfortunately I read that book.  I still like CC's books but no, I don't torture lizards.

 

 

 

What sort of cat are you  ?!  

[Nungali]

On 8/10/2025 at 7:58 AM, Apech said:

Moderator Note:

 

Could people be nice?  Let's not bicker but perhaps just ask intelligent questions.

 

 

[Nungali]

On 8/10/2025 at 8:06 AM, Apech said:

OK my takeaway from this thread so far is that many of us do various practices which we have learned either from a lineage or a teacher or otherwise picked up from somewhere.  We derive benefit from them in certain ways and this is probably based on what has worked for us in the past and so on.  What is in dispute is the limits of the term 'meditation' - and people are usiing it differently (inclusively or exclusively).  If we are to learn from each other then we need to understand the perspective of the other people on here - even if we are not particularly sympathetic to what they are saying.  It's ok, even good to disagree.  In fact if we didn't take a strong position on this it would seem that it is unimportant to us.

 

For me, meditation specifically refers to a process leading to realisation and not to the various energy exercises and so on which I have an ability in.  So many of the things that people have called meditation on here I would not accept as being as such even if they may be effective in some way.  That's where I am up to so far.  I look forward to the rest of the conversation.

 

 

 

Its been a fav subject for years   this strange word .  I have posted this a few times here , so you might be bored with it by now .

 

But now we have new people ... who are just dying to hear what I have to say    

 

peeps be going all the time  " Oh I meditated . "    " Oh wow, meditation ... cool ! "      Me ; " meditation ? What's that ? "  then each will go on to explain to me what it 'is ' .   What it seems to be, from their input , is an elephant in a dark room    

 

Lama is visiting  . We meet at our riverside meditation sanctuary , a wooden hexagon  one side open to the river .  Lama looks around and  " Nice place .  What do you use it for ? " Someone pipes up " Its a meditation sanctuary ."

 

Lama ;  " Oh good , you practice meditation , so, we will meditate together now , before the talk ."  People get comfortable , sit in lotus  position, close eyes and try to look relaxed , Lama does the same .  I am thinking 'Here we go ... again ! "   Then lama opens his eyes and looks over the group and notices that I do not have eyes closed , he mimes to me 'close eyes'  , so I do .... but then I open them again ..... he did say to 'meditate '  .  Then I notice lama is taking in a big deep breath .... he holds it then , in a giant explosion ....  

 

PHE !  

 

people nearly jumped out their skin  and lama was  " Yes !  Now you are meditating, now you have awareness , oh ... you are loosing it , now you are coming back to normal .... what was that you were doing before ? You were all sleeping . "  

 

  

 

meditation  is a word that describes a lot of different things  that some claim IS the thing  or their particular thing . 

 

 

[Nungali]

On 8/11/2025 at 4:01 AM, BigSkyDiamond said:

it is actually funny in a way.  This forum (Dao Bums) is excellent and i give it an A+ for allowing and supporting and demonstrating a respect and regard for a whole range of paths of "religion and spirituality and esoterics" across the full spectrum of beliefs and practices.

 

yet apparently when it comes to the beliefs we hold around meditation and how it is practiced, that goes out the window and the very same rabid fevered feral  fervent attitudes come out in full force as seen on say other less tolerant forums around the topics of God and religion.

 

 

 

Oh damn, I missed the excitement !  What page are these expressed rabid fevered feral fervant  pomegranates  of posts  on   ? 

Edited Wednesday at 10:52 PM by Nungali
complaint

[Cobie]

Dhyāna (Sanskrit: ध्यान, Pali: झान) means "contemplation, reflection" and "profound, abstract meditation".
The root of the word is dhi, which, in the earliest layer of Vedic texts, refers to "imaginative vision".
(Wiki Dhyāna in Hinduism)

 

 

Edited Sunday at 11:17 PM by Cobie

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

I think in life in general, as well as on a forum, there is no point really in conversing with people that are not talking from the heart. 
 

 

 

You can detect that on a forum can you ?  

[Cobie]

The word "meditation" originates from the Latin verb meditari, which means to think, contemplate, or reflect. 
 

 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

That´s quite the list.  I don´t want to argue about the accuracy of any of your assertions, but would like to point out the "gotcha" flavor of your post. It´s as if you´re saying "you say you shouldn´t hold beliefs about meditations but I found all of these beliefs so you must be a hypocrite."  Is that the message you meant to convey?  

 

Few people respond well when backed into a rhetorical corner.  Instead they throw up our hands, roll their eyes, send face palm emojis.  Marriage counselers sometimes ask their clients a pointed question: do you want to be right or do you want to get along? You likely aren´t interested in marriage with Apech or Taomeow (a mutual feeling, I´m sure) but you might want to cultivate good relationships.  Speaking for myself, I know that each of them has worlds of experience in meditation and spiritual practice.  They have much to teach me.

 

I feel like opening some smelly fish on the table    

 

More than one of us, mods included have had a joust with our new friend .   They seem to want to have them ... we are used to them .

 

But if you start one .... don't bitch if you get knocked off your horse  and start calling foul  or whatever you can think of . 

 

Don't worry  though ,  there will always be someone in the stands waving their kerchief for you      

[BigSkyDiamond]

8 minutes ago, Nungali said:

You can detect that on a forum can you ?  

 

 attitudes of disdain and superiority, yes, are transmitted in some posts loud and clear.  It is my view and experience that is a behavior that is not warm-hearted.

 

Edited Sunday at 11:28 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[liminal_luke]

3 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Don't worry  though ,  there will always be someone in the stands waving their kerchief for you      

 

Ya think?  That´s a relief!

[Cobie]

 a ‘gut’ feeling 

 

“It [meditation] helps to restore the balance of gut bacteria, improving gut barrier function and reducing inflammation. Emerging research underscores the positive impact of regular meditation practice on gut health.

https://www.news-medical.net/health/Exploring-the-Connection-Between-Gut-Health-and-Meditation.aspx#:~:text=It%20helps%20to%20restore%20the,meditation%20practice%20on%20gut%20health. 
 

 

Edited Sunday at 11:33 PM by Cobie

[Nungali]

5 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Ya think?  That´s a relief!

 

I am sure ... as I see it here constantly   ( by the way , I am not referring to you .... you are an old..... really  OLD  ...  friend  not a new one        ) 

[BigSkyDiamond]

Having worked in healthcare for 30+ years, much of that time was working in mainstream hospitals and medical centers which relied heavily on data-based research, particularly when it comes to using and introducing less mainstream treatment modalities.  At one time acupuncture was seen as "alternative" medicne and now it is mainstream in hospitals and often covered by insurance.  Meditation is also finding its way into mainstream medicine, particularly in the area of therapy.

 

"The systematic method of regulating attention known as meditation is now being incorporated into psychotherapeutic practice and linked in surprising ways to other healing traditions, including cognitive behavioral therapy. The most highly developed forms of meditation are associated with Buddhism, but there are parallels in other spiritual and religious traditions, as well as modern secular versions under the names of relaxation response training or mindfulness meditation."

 

more here, source Harvard Medical School, Meditation in psychotherapy

https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/Meditation_in_psychotherapy

 

Edited Sunday at 11:44 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[steve]

4 minutes ago, Cobie said:

The word "meditation" originates from the Latin verb meditari, which means to think, contemplate, or reflect. 
 

 

 

In the dzogchen tradition, the core practice is sometimes referred to as "non-meditation" for this reason.

Occasionally, I see the word contemplation being used, which comes from the Latin verb contemplatio, referring more to the act of looking or observing rather than thinking or reflecting. Interestingly, as a native English speaker I've somehow come to associate contemplation more with thinking and meditation more with simply abiding or being. Not sure how that interchange came about. 

[liminal_luke]

19 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

I feel like opening some smelly fish on the table    

 

More than one of us, mods included have had a joust with our new friend .   They seem to want to have them ... we are used to them .

 

But if you start one .... don't bitch if you get knocked off your horse  and start calling foul  or whatever you can think of . 

 

Don't worry  though ,  there will always be someone in the stands waving their kerchief for you      

 

15 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Ya think?  That´s a relief!

 

8 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

I am sure ... as I see it here constantly   ( by the way , I am not referring to you .... you are an old..... really  OLD  ...  friend  not a new one        ) 

 

No worries.  I believe I understood your post.  You are an astute observer of human interaction.  A cantankerous, and provocation-loving observer but also astute.  Credit where it´s due.

[steve]

4 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

Having worked in healthcare for 30+ years, much of that time was working in hospitals and medical centers which relied heavily on data-based research, particularly when it comes to using and introducing less mainstream treatment modalities.  At one time acupuncture was seen as "alternative" medicne and now it is mainstream in hospitals and often covered by insurance. 

 

A good friend has been teaching tsa lung trul khor at the MD Anderson Cancer Center in Texas for over 25 years as a part of their Integrative Health program. 

 

4 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

Meditation is also finding its way into mainstream medicine, particularly in the area of therapy.

 

"The systematic method of regulating attention known as meditation is now being incorporated into psychotherapeutic practice and linked in surprising ways to other healing traditions, including cognitive behavioral therapy. The most highly developed forms of meditation are associated with Buddhism, but there are parallels in other spiritual and religious traditions, as well as modern secular versions under the names of relaxation response training or mindfulness meditation."

 

more here, source Harvard Medical School, Meditation in psychotherapy

https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/Meditation_in_psychotherapy

 

 

I spent a few years working with a therapist who used a variant of CBT known as ACT (Acceptance Commitment Therapy).

It did not use meditation techniques much per se but did use principles and views that inform meditative philosophy and practice in a way that was very effective for me. 

[BigSkyDiamond]

13 minutes ago, steve said:

 

In the dzogchen tradition, the core practice is sometimes referred to as "non-meditation" for this reason.

Occasionally, I see the word contemplation being used, which comes from the Latin verb contemplatio, referring more to the act of looking or observing rather than thinking or reflecting. Interestingly, as a native English speaker I've somehow come to associate contemplation more with thinking and meditation more with simply abiding or being. Not sure how that interchange came about. 

 

interesting observation.  yes this or that word does have a particular personal tone or resonance.

for me when i hear "contemplate" it brings to mind the contemplatives, who were religious mystics. and yes i associate that with abiding and being, observing and awareness.  meditation for me is exactly there.   whereas i associate "mind" with intellect and logical thinking and thought process.

 

Edited Sunday at 11:56 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[BigSkyDiamond]

28 minutes ago, steve said:

A good friend has been teaching tsa lung trul khor at the MD Anderson Cancer Center in Texas for over 25 years as a part of their Integrative Health program. 

 

i had to look that up tsa lung trul khor.    And I watched the introduction video on the Cancer Center's website.

It is a Tibetan Bon meditation practice with breathing, movement, and awareness.  For calming the mind and connecting to the heart.  Qualities highlighted are: gentle, relaxed, nurturing, clear.  Stated benefit:  enhanced quality of life.

 

that is wonderful.  Of note, it is offered and used not just with patients, but also with caregivers and family.  Therapeutic benefits, yes.

 

 

 

Edited Monday at 12:18 AM by BigSkyDiamond

[Nungali]

23 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

 

 

No worries.  I believe I understood your post.  You are an astute observer of human interaction.  A cantankerous, and provocation-loving observer but also astute.  Credit where it´s due.

 

 

I do a lotta sittin an watchin

 

 

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

  What it seems to be, from their input , is an elephant in a dark room    

 

 

I believe it's chasing, in a dark room, a black cat who isn't there.    

 

 

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

Lama ;  " Oh good , you practice meditation , so, we will meditate together now , before the talk ."  People get comfortable , sit in lotus  position, close eyes and try to look relaxed , Lama does the same .  I am thinking 'Here we go ... again ! "   Then lama opens his eyes and looks over the group and notices that I do not have eyes closed , he mimes to me 'close eyes'  , so I do .... but then I open them again ..... he did say to 'meditate '  .  Then I notice lama is taking in a big deep breath .... he holds it then , in a giant explosion ....  

 

PHE !  

 

people nearly jumped out their skin  and lama was  " Yes !  Now you are meditating, now you have awareness , oh ... you are loosing it , now you are coming back to normal .... what was that you were doing before ? You were all sleeping . "  

 

  

 

meditation  is a word that describes a lot of different things  that some claim IS the thing  or their particular thing . 

 

 

 

As some may (or more likely may not) remember, I came to taoism from dzogchen, many moons ago, and the way I was taught dzogchen meditation, you had your eyes open, looking past the tip of your nose at nothing in particular but placing your awareness in your eyes.  I don't know if there's other ways (would have to ask Steve since I didn't take it far with that practice, it was still an experimental stage for me).  But even with my eyes open I would occasionally just feel sleepy and, realizing it, proceed straight to bed.  I asked my teacher then what I was doing wrong.  His response: "Nothing.  You must be chronically underslept."  Which I was at the time.  So he goes, "Then you're doing it right.  A sign of meditation done right is, it gives you what you need.  Not what you want.  What you need."  I made a note of it...       

 

Edited Monday at 12:40 AM by Taomeow

[BigSkyDiamond]

1 hour ago, steve said:

I spent a few years working with a therapist who used a variant of CBT known as ACT (Acceptance Commitment Therapy).

It did not use meditation techniques much per se but did use principles and views that inform meditative philosophy and practice in a way that was very effective for me. 

 

Yes, ACT is discussed also:

 

"The new tendency began with dialectical behavior therapy, which uses standard behavioral and cognitive techniques along with mindfulness meditation in a form of individual and group treatment originally developed to prevent self-mutilation and suicide attempts in women with borderline personality. Dialectical behavior therapy has also been used for eating disorders, addictions, and other conditions. Marsha Linehan, the originator of the technique, refers to a "dialectic of acceptance and change" in which meditation serves as a means for the patient to accept feelings that she has been rejecting because family members and friends have declared them unjustified or invalid.  Acceptance and commitment therapy, developed by Stephen Hayes and others, further breaks down the distinction between cognitive behavioral therapy and older spiritual teachings.  ....Acceptance and commitment therapists oppose what they call cognitive fusion and experiential avoidance."

 

"Acceptance and commitment therapy rejects the assumption that what needs to be changed is the content of a thought or feeling. ...The alternatives include meditation and a variety of mental exercises, metaphors, and stories that resemble Zen paradoxes and parables."

 

https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/Meditation_in_psychotherapy

 

Edited Monday at 12:51 AM by BigSkyDiamond

[zerostao]

15 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

I do a lotta sittin an watchin

 

 

 

Cuz !

[BigSkyDiamond]

.

 

Edited Monday at 04:51 PM by BigSkyDiamond