Maddie Posted January 6 2 minutes ago, silent thunder said: No support that the man we talk about as jesus, actually ever existed as anything other than an allegory. Most historians and scholars believe that the man existed but was heavily mythologized. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NaturaNaturans Posted January 6 16 minutes ago, Maddie said: This was being taught before Jesus. Can you give a specific example of something that Jesus taught that was new, revolutionary AND changed the world? I think i can, espacially considering it in how it goes against the jewish tradition he grew up in: Gnostic gospel of Thomas compared with the canonical once: Quote 1. GT saying 2: Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds he will become troubled. When he becomestroubled he will become astonished and he will rule over the all." Matthew 7:7-11: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives, and everyone who searches, finds, and for everyone who knocks, the door will be opened. 2. GT saying 72: A man said to him, "Tell my brothers to divide my father's possessions with me." He said to him, "O man, who has made me a divider?" He said to his disciples, "I am not a divider, am I?" Luke 12: 13-14: Someone in the crowd said to him, "Teacher, tell my brother to divide the family inheritance with me." But he said to him, "Friend, who set me to be a judge or arbitator over you?" And he said to them, "Take care! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; for one's life does not consist in abundance of possessions." 3. GT saying 113: His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?" Jesus said, "It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be a matter of saying 'Here it is' or 'There it is'. Rather, the kingdom of the father is spread out upon the earth, and people do not see it." Luke 12:20-21: Once, Jesus was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, and he answered, "The kingdom of God is not coming with things that can be observed; nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There it is!'. For in fact, the kingdom of God is among you. 5. GT saying 3: The Kingdom is inside you, and outside you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will realize it is you who are the sons of the living Father. John 14:6-7: No one comes to the Father except through me. If you know me, you will know my Father. 6. GT saying 50: If they say to you, "Where did you come from?" say to them, "We came from the light, the place where the light came into being by itself, and was revealed through their image. . . We are its children, the chosen of the living Father." John 8: 12-13: Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but will have the light of life." 7. GT saying 70: That which you have will save you if you bring it forth from yourselves. That which you do not have within you will kill you if you do not have it within you. John 1:9-13: [Jesus] is the true light, which enlightens everyone . . . To all who received him, he gave the power to become children of God, who were born, not of blood . . .but of God. https://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Suydam/Reln225/GospelThomas.htm on the trinity/monism «i and the father is one» «I am the alpha and omega» «Holiness, as taught in the Scriptures, is not based upon knowledge on our part. Rather, it is based upon the resurrected Christ in-dwelling us and changing us into His likeness» A.W. Tozer «In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God» (NB: replace the word «word» with logos, witch is what was used in the original gospel. It translates to Word or speech, yes, but has a whole different meaning as well: some sort of universal reason/nature. Sermon of the mount: Quote Eye for Eye 38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[a] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. Love for Enemies 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?Are not even the tax collectors doing that?47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. matthew 5 and 6 Quote 5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.7 And when you pray, do not keep on babblinglike pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you needbefore you ask him. 9 “This, then, is how you should pray: “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation,[a] but deliver us from the evil one.’ 14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. 28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them.33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. John 8: Quote 3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4they say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. his last words on the cross: father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. And cor 3:14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NaturaNaturans Posted January 6 7 minutes ago, Maddie said: Most historians and scholars believe that the man existed but was heavily mythologized. Agree 100%. But much of his none violence teachings i belive is historical, as this was written in a time where the jews constantly rebeled against the romans, and the romans slaughtered them in return. That led to some adopting a pascifist attitude, as a way to rebel without getting killed 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowymountains Posted January 6 3 minutes ago, Maddie said: That very well might have been his personal understanding, but it was not the historical understanding of the Church throughout the millennia. It also does not seem to be what Jesus himself taught. John 14:6 "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." The theologist then seem to be more compassionate than the all compassionate and all loving Christian god somehow. I don't know the relative importances of the scriptures, nor am I too familiar with them, so can't replicate his reasoning. He did mention John's quote (he started from there), he also assigned it some context, he mentioned other parts of the Bible too and concurred in the way I mentioned above. A theologist also is not the representative of the church, that theologist was an academic, he was not representing the church. His claim was what is the correct interpretation of the scriptures with respect to that question ( which I also had as a practicing Buddhist ), not that his would be the position or CoE or another church. Churches are better seen as organizations under perma-reform. E.g. in the middle ages they controlled the people by owning vast amounts of land. To the best of my knowledge Jesus never said to his disciples go and own huge masses of land in my name, yet the Church did so. Which is why I discussed that question with a theologist instead of a priest. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NaturaNaturans Posted January 6 39 minutes ago, snowymountains said: That message wasn't the core teaching before Jesus, the Roman/Greek Gods were more coersive that Jesus' God, who was more compassionate. Well, Jesuses platonic/monist view of God stands in stark contrast to the jewish god, Yahwe. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NaturaNaturans Posted January 6 General question: this website is really slow for me today, but my internett is perfectly fine. Any others experiencing similar? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maddie Posted January 6 3 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said: General question: this website is really slow for me today, but my internett is perfectly fine. Any others experiencing similar? No, seems fine for me. Also about the Jesus quotes you posted. Yes of course there are the good sounding bits, BUT in the same sermon on the mount that you quoted from he also tells people that they can't get divorced for just about any reason and does not condemn slavery. So basically Jesus is condemning a woman in an abusive marriage to that fresh hell, and condoning slavery. So sure there might be some good bits, but there are also a lot of not good bits. The fact that we as human beings can pick out the good bits from the bad bits means that we have a better moral compass than god and therefore god is not that great after all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NaturaNaturans Posted January 6 1 minute ago, Maddie said: The fact that we as human beings can pick out the good bits from the bad bits means that we have a better moral compass than god and therefore god is not that great after all. What do you mean by god? Is it a tribal god (Thor, Yahwe, aztec sun god etc.), a platonic God, like the Christian concept of divinity or is it maybe nature or the universe? And where does Christ talk about slavery? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted January 6 27 minutes ago, Maddie said: Most historians and scholars believe that the man existed but was heavily mythologized. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowymountains Posted January 6 23 minutes ago, Maddie said: That very well might have been his personal understanding, but it was not the historical understanding of the Church throughout the millennia. It also does not seem to be what Jesus himself taught. John 14:6 "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." The theologist then seem to be more compassionate than the all compassionate and all loving Christian god somehow. So I searched some old text messages as I was scratching my head on what he had said on that. I can't find this conversation but I did find something related to it, he had quoted from For the Life of the World: Sacraments and Orthodoxy - Alexander Schmemann - Google Books " We believe as well that Christ is present in any seeker after truth. Simone Weil has said that though a person may run as fast as he can away from Christ, it is toward what he considers true, he runs in fact straight into the arms of Christ" So, I guess if someone is interested in researching this theological question, that book, the references it uses and its interpretation of scripture is a starting point ( though he may had used references beyond those in this book too when he explained it to me ). 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NaturaNaturans Posted January 6 2 minutes ago, silent thunder said: Whats strange about that? A jewish «rebel» with a following and unique set of teachings likley did excist, but it is also clear that NT is filled with greek philosophy, mystery tradition, sun worship, mithras and so on.. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted January 6 Not strange. It's stories, based on stories. This particular tale is one of the older extant games of 'phone call' in the western world. Nothing strange about it at all, there was no claim of strange, it's another example of human nature. Human nature's tendency of emotional identification, adoption and then projection/assumption of veracity based on emotional conflation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowymountains Posted January 6 13 minutes ago, Maddie said: The fact that we as human beings can pick out the good bits from the bad bits means that we have a better moral compass than god and therefore god is not that great after all. That is the main argument on why if there is an "ultimate" God they can't be both all powerful and fully compassionate at the same time. If they were both, then there would be no suffering. So they either aren't compassionate to our suffering but are all-powerful or they are compassionate but can't do anything about it, so they're not all powerful. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zhongyongdaoist Posted January 6 The whole problem with this topic is that it is based on the flimsiest speculation which is then elaborated on in ways that are anachronistic and largely ignorant of what was going on in Judea and the larger Jewish world during the period that Jesus lived. I have made a lot of posts about the period and I will do some searching and pull them together for posting here. I am busy today, but I should have something to say by tomorrow. ZYD 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NaturaNaturans Posted January 6 41 minutes ago, Maddie said: That very well might have been his personal understanding, but it was not the historical understanding of the Church throughout the millennia. It also does not seem to be what Jesus himself taught. John 14:6 "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." The theologist then seem to be more compassionate than the all compassionate and all loving Christian god somehow. My very uneducated opinion on this. I do not belive that Jesus thought he was God, and i belive that son of God refers to humanity and not Jesus in particular. Christ comes from the Greek word χριστός (chrīstós), meaning "anointed one.» «The word became flesh» Jesus is the logos incarnate. It is about accepting the spirit of his teachings, as opposed to the old testament, that lead to salvation and heaven (metaphorically speaking). You know what the only unforgivable sin is? Sin against the holy ghost, the spark of divinity within you. The New law: Quote In his Summa Theologiae I–II qq. 106–9, a section of the Summa known as the Treatise on Law, Saint Thomas Aquinas discusses the Law of Christ as the "New Law". He argues that it was virtually contained in the Old Law, that is the Old Testament, as a seed but only brought to perfection by Jesus Christ who perfectly fulfilled it. The ends of the Old and New are one and the same, being subjection to God's order, but they are different in that the New Law makes attaining the end possible. Meanwhile, since all law ultimately has reference to Divine Reason governing all things, the New Law contains and helps the human being fulfill the Natural Lawwhich prescribes acts of virtue. Thus, Aquinas defines the New Law as "chiefly the grace itself of the Holy Ghost, which is given to those who believe in Christ," but adds that it also "contains certain things that dispose us to receive the grace of the Holy Ghost, and pertaining to the use of that grace." Therefore, "the New Law is in the first place a law that is inscribed on our hearts, but that secondarily it is a written law". (ST I-II q. 106.3)[4] The Catholic theologian Bernhard Häringpresents the Law of Christ as Christ himself in his person because Jesus was able to fulfill the law and provide us with the effect of this fulfillment.[5] The Evangelical theologian Douglas J. Mooargues that "the law of Christ" is strongly connected to the Mosaic Law, for example that nine of the Ten Commandments are included.[6] George R. Law argues that the New Covenant is the Law of Christ, and that the details are expressed in the Sermon on the Mount.[7] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Christ The evil creator: Quote Description This book examines the origins of the evil creator idea chiefly in light of early Christian biblical interpretations. It is divided into two parts. In Part I, the focus is on the interpretations of Exodus and John. Firstly, ancient Egyptian assimilation of the Jewish god to the evil deity Seth-Typhon is studied to understand its reapplication by Phibionite and Sethian Christians to the Judeo-catholic creator. Secondly, the Christian reception of John 8:44 (understood to refer to the devil's father) is shown to implicate the Judeo-catholic creator in murdering Christ. Part II focuses on Marcionite Christian biblical interpretations. It begins with Marcionite interpretations of the creator's character in the Christian "Old Testament," analyzes 2 Corinthians 4:4 (in which "the god of this world" blinds people from Christ's glory), examines Christ's so-called destruction of the Law (Eph 2:15) and the Lawgiver, and shows how Christ finally succumbs to the "curse of the Law" inflicted by the creator (Gal 3:13). A concluding chapter shows how still today readers of the Christian Bible have concluded that the creator manifests an evil character https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-evil-creator-9780197566428?cc=no&lang=en& Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NaturaNaturans Posted January 6 9 minutes ago, Zhongyongdaoist said: The whole problem with this topic is that it is based on the flimsiest speculation which is then elaborated on in ways that are anachronistic and largely ignorant of what was going on in Judea and the larger Jewish world during the period that Jesus lived. I have made a lot of posts about the period and I will do some searching and pull them together for posting here. I am busy today, but I should have something to say by tomorrow. ZYD Looking forward to it, could br very interresting Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowymountains Posted January 6 39 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said: Well, Jesuses platonic/monist view of God stands in stark contrast to the jewish god, Yahwe. I agree, it looks to me like he used the name of Yahwe simply because this was the dominant god worshiped in the region. I don't know if his influences were mainly platonic or other, for sure Orphism did have a lot of influence, neoplatonists also surely had impact on Christianity AD. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maddie Posted January 6 There have been some interesting points on both side, but to me personally for someone to be the greatest teacher of all time they need to have a little more than just "don't be a dick" to offer. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NaturaNaturans Posted January 6 4 minutes ago, Maddie said: There have been some interesting points on both side, but to me personally for someone to be the greatest teacher of all time they need to have a little more than just "don't be a dick" to offer. How about, sacrifice yourself for the sins of the people, breaking the old law and teaching that attempting love and forgiveness towards everyone as the only neccesary key to paradise? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maddie Posted January 6 1 minute ago, NaturaNaturans said: How about, sacrifice yourself for the sins of the people, breaking the old law and teaching that attempting love and forgiveness towards everyone as the only neccesary key to paradise? Yeah that makes no sense at all. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NaturaNaturans Posted January 6 For me in terms of «saintity» he is the idealized human, peak goodness. I am very intrueged by other teachings aswell: eastern ones, Paganism, philosophy, but mot knowledgeable enough. And there are a lot of great teachers, in every field. allthough as a european, i am undoubtley biased towards him, even tho i wouldnt call my self a Christian i the traditional way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NaturaNaturans Posted January 6 2 minutes ago, Maddie said: Yeah that makes no sense at all. What doesnt make sense Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowymountains Posted January 6 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Maddie said: There have been some interesting points on both side, but to me personally for someone to be the greatest teacher of all time they need to have a little more than just "don't be a dick" to offer. It's beyond that, Christians were chanting and praying for their torturers when they were being executed. This is why coercion did not work on them and instead the empire itself changed, the old ways of imposing power didn't work on Christians. The fact that after the Christians took power, they applied good ole coercion equally brutally to followers of the old ways is a separate topic. Edited January 6 by snowymountains Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maddie Posted January 6 2 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said: What doesnt make sense The whole human sacrifice for other peoples sins thing makes no sense from a justice point of view, which is what it appeals to. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NaturaNaturans Posted January 6 Just now, Maddie said: The whole human sacrifice for other peoples sins thing makes no sense from a justice point of view, which is what it appeals to. By that i meant: living in one of the most hellish places on earth at the time, speaking against the authorities and preaching love and forgiveness, something he knew would Get him killed. Willing to die for his belief instead of sacrifice then, is that makes it clearer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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