Mantras

[old3bob]

"they" say that one should use universal and safe mantras unless directed otherwise by a qualified teacher,  that is because some mantras are not meant for general use or experiment...

[idiot_stimpy]

7 minutes ago, old3bob said:

"they" say that one should use universal and safe mantras unless directed otherwise by a qualified teacher,  that is because some mantras are not meant for general use or experiment...

 

How would one find a list of safe mantras?

 

I have never practiced with mantras although I do find them interesting.

[old3bob]

33 minutes ago, idiot_stimpy said:

 

How would one find a list of safe mantras?

 

I have never practiced with mantras although I do find them interesting.

 

most qualified teachers will recommend starter or universal mantras in their general reading materials like books, on the internet, or in person.   

[EFreethought]

4 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

 

How would one find a list of safe mantras?

 

I have never practiced with mantras although I do find them interesting.

 

Here are a couple of sites for your consideration:

http://www.visiblemantra.org/index.html

 

https://www.wildmind.org/mantras

 

 

[snowymountains]

8 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

 

How would one find a list of safe mantras?

 

I have never practiced with mantras although I do find them interesting.

 

Each tradition is different in how chanting is done, so there will be no universal list.

 

Eg Sutta chanting in the Theravadan way is always safe, it's a contemplative practice on the meaning of the text after all.

 

In terms of Mahayana Sutra chanting, though I've never heard of unsafe chants, you can check at what the Dojos close to you chant, ie one may so daily chants of the heart Sutra, a different one may do daily chants of the diamond Sutra.

 

It looks like Soto Zen in specific has this bit quite standardised: https://www.sotozen.com/eng/practice/sutra/scriptures.html

 

 

In practical terms this is a group practice and one just follows what's done at the place where they practice.

It just feels better when it's done together with a group, just like singing during a concert feels better because others sing at the same time 😁

 

If you want to do it solo at home too, some places may give permission for sound recording and then you can use the recording for solo practice.

 

The above is not strictly speaking mantras, it's chanting in general. If you want to do syllable practices eg A-Un, these are considered energy exercises, so it's best to discuss these with a teacher.

 

So probably the easiest way to navigate this is to visit the Dojo closest to you, practice with them a few times to see how they do chanting and get a copy of their chantbook ( most dojos these days have it as pdf on their website ).

 

But as each tradition has their own etiquette for chanting, chant in different ways and for different reasons, they'll have different rules around it.

So eg all this Zen or Theravada stuff could be irrelevant for what you do.

[old3bob]

a correction (counter to our expert?)  

 

Om and or Aum are normally considered universal mantras and are used in many ways,  there are also what many call universal or what could be called safe generic like and longer mantras within  Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, etc.  We have a lot of Buddhist responders here but that is only one of the ways... 

Edited February 18 by old3bob

[snowymountains]

22 minutes ago, old3bob said:

a correction (counter to our expert?)  

 

Om and or Aum are normally considered universal mantras and are used in many ways,  there are also what many call universal or safe generic like mantras within  Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, etc.  We have a lot of Buddhist responders here but that is just one of the ways... 

 

Hm my response didn't say that though.

 

The universal reference in my text was referring to cross-tradition, as in objective rules, not a reference to whether a specific tradition calls a mantra universal or not.

 

Eg when in future time there will exist clinical studies categorising the effects and attributing them, then we'll have universal and objective rules that are independent of traditions.

 

Till then as each tradition has its own rules, each one does what their tradition says.

The reason for recommending to see A-Un with a teacher was not meant to label it unsafe, it's just typically taught by a teacher to a student, so that's the recommended way to learn it in a Zen context.

 

Indeed others systems have mantras and someone who practices these may want to comment regarding the experience there.

Rules are different even within Buddhism btw, eg Theravada chanting is practiced differently to Zen chanting.

 

2 hours ago, snowymountains said:

eg all this Zen or Theravada stuff could be irrelevant for what you do.

 

Edited February 18 by snowymountains

[silent thunder]

The effects on local awareness of raising one's voice within a group for me has been an experience of the sum exceeding the parts.  However, even when chanting 'alone', one is never seperated from the whole, so one's voice chanting into reality and the attenuation of such is always integrating with the whole... we are never operating in a vaccuum of reality. 

 

Aum Is

 

I was part of several professional choirs in my earlier life.  Utter transcendence resulted on several occasions, seemingly spontaneously during rehearsals usually as performances added a layer of distraction that did not exist during pure rehearsal and exploration of the merging of sound... but one may always approach solo chanting from the perspective of consciously merging one's own sound with the whole.

 

It's much like the rest of life... if seeking an effect, one will find an effect, whether generated by the chanting, or the mind's seeking.  Placebo is not only real, it, to me, is an expression of the idealism of reality, i.e. awareness/mind is all and foundational and where local mind generates attenuation, results will be affected by such generation and exploration.

 

As to safe or not... I've never been able to put much stock in claims made by others. 

I have to experience, explore and assess the effects of any practice, claim and process on my own.

 

edit to add:  in my experience one does not need to chant, sing or speak 'out loud' for effects to reverberate throughout the awareness of reality.  Chanting, singing or speaking internally and in the 5th dimension has profound and very real, lasting effect in my direct experience.  No need to make auditory sound.  I used to spend a lot of time in public transit and would use mantras on subways/busses/trolleys and while walking in crowds to potent effects.

 

and somewhat related to this... I've found when chanting, a natural expression of vibratory resonance will generate within the body and depending on the chant, the location of the vibratory center within the body can shift... not only this but one may eventually direct and select to focus vibrations in certain areas of the body for desired effect or exploration (whether seeking healing or amplification of trance or transcendence).  This is also possible when chanting internally and silently in my experience.  As all is awareness... when awareness is engaged, reality responds.

 

even sitting in 'silence' is a resonance of its own natural order and adds its voiceless voice to the great aum. 

when we endeavor to engage our simplest presence and being with attenuated awareness... we 'charge' the moment and whatever we do to our own awareness... affects The All.

Edited February 18 by silent thunder

[snowymountains]

9 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

 Placebo is not only real, it, to me, is an expression of the idealism of reality, i.e. awareness/mind is all and foundational and where local mind generates attenuation, results will be affected by such generation and exploration.

 

Placebo is both real and extremely effective, not just to you.

 

It's so real that pharma companies always have to demonstrate their meds perform above placebo.

Or to invert, placebo is one of the benchmarks that need to be exceeded for patented drugs to be approved.

 

It's that real that it actually serves as a benchmark.

 

Eg Autogenic training which a German psychiatrist founded last century heavily leverages placebo and it's very effective.

 

"Placebo" can be used as a dismissive term for eg meds in trials that don't work ( ie oh it was placebo nothing else ), but I don't understand why sometimes it is placebo itself that's dismissed.

It's proven to exist and work over and over.

[silent thunder]

I've always been mystified by folks who dismiss placebo... when to me, it seems an exemplification and demonstration of the foundational nature of awareness as a whole and the potent subjective local experience influence as reflected on the whole of shared reality.

 

Perhaps an interesting topic of its own worth exploring...

[snowymountains]

5 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

I've always been mystified by folks who dismiss placebo... when to me, it seems an exemplification and demonstration of the foundational nature of awareness as a whole and the potent subjective local experience influence as reflected on the whole of shared reality.

 

Perhaps an interesting topic of its own worth exploring...

 

It's very effective it's actually used by some sports psychologists in the form of autogenic training and extensions of thereof.

 

It's that effective that in principle it even allowed for surgery without anesthetics in a past era. Adding hypnosis just adds effectiveness as the unconscious is addressed directly, it's still a placebo, just induced with a hypnotic induction.

 

Eg so-called "Esdaile states" did exactly this.

( were used in entirely different times though, today they're not used for surgery anymore )

 

 

Different topic though, for another thread.

[Maddie]

19 hours ago, EFreethought said:

 

Do you ever practice mantras with a group? Or just solo?

 

And if in a group: Chanting, or is everyone meditating silently?

 

I just do them solo. 

[Maddie]

19 hours ago, EFreethought said:

 

I have a few questions about the Zhunti mantra: Isn't there a long form and a short form? I think Bodri wrote that you start with the long form, and  after a certain number of repetitions you do the short form. Have you done enough to do the short form?

 

If I remember correctly, the other karma mantra, Vajrasattva, also has a long and a short version. But I think for that one you can just go with the short version and skip the long version.

 

I'm not sure but I don't do it anymore. It makes my life absolutely miserable every time I do it. 

[Maddie]

3 hours ago, silent thunder said:

I've always been mystified by folks who dismiss placebo... when to me, it seems an exemplification and demonstration of the foundational nature of awareness as a whole and the potent subjective local experience influence as reflected on the whole of shared reality.

 

Perhaps an interesting topic of its own worth exploring...

 

When people dismiss something as "placebo effect" they usually forget the second word.

[Sahaja]

5 hours ago, silent thunder said:

I've always been mystified by folks who dismiss placebo... when to me, it seems an exemplification and demonstration of the foundational nature of awareness as a whole and the potent subjective local experience influence as reflected on the whole of shared reality.

 

Perhaps an interesting topic of its own worth exploring...

Yes it’s ironic that people write off things to hypnosis or placebo effect  or say things like mind over matter without thinking about the causation chain behind these terms. If they did this they might realize something more amazing is happening then what they think they are dismissing. 

[Keith108]

On 2/17/2024 at 3:55 PM, EFreethought said:

 

Do you ever practice mantras with a group? Or just solo?

 

And if in a group: Chanting, or is everyone meditating silently?

My tradition (Buddhist) uses mantra as an object of focus for meditation, and mantras are embedded in the chants we do. So maybe, a little of both.

 

For instance, at the end of the Heart Sutra, the mantra "gate, gate, paragate, parasamgate, bodhi svaha" is repeated three times. I know someone who uses this mantra for practice. My son uses the Great Dharani , which is pretty common among mantra practitioners in my tradition. The most common is kwan seum bosal (Guanyin, Kannon), which is said to help with excessive thinking. 

 

Personally, I don't practice that way, but it's a really common method. 

 

_/|\_

 

[refugeindharma]

On 2/18/2024 at 7:00 AM, EFreethought said:

 

I have a few questions about the Zhunti mantra: Isn't there a long form and a short form? I think Bodri wrote that you start with the long form, and  after a certain number of repetitions you do the short form. Have you done enough to do the short form?

 

If I remember correctly, the other karma mantra, Vajrasattva, also has a long and a short version. But I think for that one you can just go with the short version and skip the long version.

 

Yes there is the long form Zhunti, which is the complete.

 

Then the short, which is the last few lines of the long starting with Om If i remember correct.

 

You either do enough reps of the long, or get some kind of vision/dream to be able to do the short. 

 

There's also a complete ritual/sadhana one can do with the Zhunti but its best done after receiving transmission/empowerment apparently, the monk who inherited it from Master Nan at least mentioned this

[refugeindharma]

I do the Great Compassion Mantra (GCM) and Shurangama Mantra daily.

 

Master Hsuan Hua remarked that if one could memorize the Shurangama mantra in their lifetime then that life would not have been lived in vain

 

Cool video showing the potential power of GCM: 

 

Also perhaps not quite mantras but I have been reciting various verses from the Quran daily for protection

Edited February 19 by refugeindharma