True meaning of Non-Dual

[dwai]

There are many ways to point to non-duality. The traditional vedantic method is called the “Arundhati darsana nyaya” or “the logic of viewing arundhati.” The context being, arundhati and vashishta are two stellar constellations which are considered to be a pair when observed anstronomically, but arundhati is much farther away than vashishta, and so is very faint in the night sky. The way a teacher might show a student where arundhati is in the night sky might be to follow a sequence of referential pointers. He might draw the student’s attention to a specific tree, and then a specific branch of the tree, and then a bright star that is visible above the branch, and then a fainter star beyond it, and then in its vicinity a fainter star still - which is arundhati. The logic being, the student will not have a frame of reference to detect the very subtly illuminated arundhati when directly pointed to. By going through the sequence of referential pointers, their attention is gradually drawn to it, until it becomes apparent what/where it is in the vast night sky.

 

when non-duality is taught, it is often  taught after a certain degree of stillness has been attained by the student - they go through preparatory practices such as yoga, breath work, meditation to attain onepointedness of the mind. Once the mind has been developed sufficiently, the teacher will draw the student’s attention to their witness state - which observes all phenomena occurring but is itself unaffected by the phenomena. The mind itself is an object to this witness awareness. At this point there is a separate reality that is being observed by the witness, so there is duality. But the duality is clearly partitioned into subject and objects. 
 

The student stays in this way for a while until the thought arises in their mind, this still is duality, and so asks the teacher exactly how is this nonduality?

 

The teacher then helps the student realize that the world that is observed is just a series of thought patterns appearing in the student’s mind. So the “world” doesn’t really have a separate existent reality apart from the mind. But since the mind itself is an object to the witnessing awareness, it too much be an appearance, much like the world. 
 

The student sits with this new insight and meditates on it - until one day the realization dawns - the only reality that is unchanging is the witness awareness. This awareness has no attributes other than existence and knowing (sat and chit). And that at the core of their experiences, is this formless, attributeless awareness.

 

Then the student has to explore the validity of this realization by trying to shake the sense of certainty it brings to them. This happens through repeated logical refutations they must work through until there is no doubts left about their true nature as awareness itself. 
 

Nonduality means nothing is apart from awareness - it means every thing is made up of, and is an appearance of awareness to awareness. There is no thing that can exist apart from awareness. 

[Daniel]

First, thank you for the very detailed write-up.

 

16 minutes ago, dwai said:

Nonduality means nothing is apart from awareness

 

I understand what is written here, but, this is not literally true, correct?  Perhaps in the past ancient philosophers did not consider what was happening beneath the surface of a distant star?  Or, maybe they simply did not care about what was happening "there" for various reasons.  I'm not criticising, because, there is good reason not to concern oneself with what is happening far beyond one's awareness.  On the other hand, I think there are good reasons not to deny that there is a great deal which is apart from awareness.

 

16 minutes ago, dwai said:

There is no thing that can exist apart from awareness. 

 

Clearly this is false.  Each and every new discovery existed prior to the awareness of it.  Its existence is not dependent in any way on awareness of it.

 

If this were true, cancer would not exist.

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Daniel

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

First, thank you for the very detailed write-up.

you’re welcome  

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

 

 

I understand what is written here, but, this is not literally true, correct?  Perhaps in the past ancient philosophers did not consider what was happening beneath the surface of a distant star?  Or, maybe they simply did not care about what was happening "there" for various reasons.  I'm not criticising, because, there is good reason not to concern oneself with what is happening far beyond one's awareness.  On the other hand, I think there are good reasons not to deny that there is a great deal which is apart from awareness.

And how do YOU know that? 

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

 

Clearly this is false.  Each and every new discovery existed prior to the awareness of it.  Its existence is not dependent in any way on awareness of it.

 

If this were true, cancer would not exist.

 

How do you KNOW that? 

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

There are many ways to point to non-duality. The traditional vedantic method is called the “Arundhati darsana nyaya” or “the logic of viewing arundhati.” The context being, arundhati and vashishta are two stellar constellations which are considered to be a pair when observed anstronomically, but arundhati is much farther away than vashishta, and so is very faint in the night sky. The way a teacher might show a student where arundhati is in the night sky might be to follow a sequence of referential pointers. He might draw the student’s attention to a specific tree, and then a specific branch of the tree, and then a bright star that is visible above the branch, and then a fainter star beyond it, and then in its vicinity a fainter star still - which is arundhati. The logic being, the student will not have a frame of reference to detect the very subtly illuminated arundhati when directly pointed to. By going through the sequence of referential pointers, their attention is gradually drawn to it, until it becomes apparent what/where it is in the vast night sky.

 

when non-duality is taught, it is often  taught after a certain degree of stillness has been attained by the student - they go through preparatory practices such as yoga, breath work, meditation to attain onepointedness of the mind. Once the mind has been developed sufficiently, the teacher will draw the student’s attention to their witness state - which observes all phenomena occurring but is itself unaffected by the phenomena. The mind itself is an object to this witness awareness. At this point there is a separate reality that is being observed by the witness, so there is duality. But the duality is clearly partitioned into subject and objects. 
 

The student stays in this way for a while until the thought arises in their mind, this still is duality, and so asks the teacher exactly how is this nonduality?

 

The teacher then helps the student realize that the world that is observed is just a series of thought patterns appearing in the student’s mind. So the “world” doesn’t really have a separate existent reality apart from the mind. But since the mind itself is an object to the witnessing awareness, it too much be an appearance, much like the world. 
 

The student sits with this new insight and meditates on it - until one day the realization dawns - the only reality that is unchanging is the witness awareness. This awareness has no attributes other than existence and knowing (sat and chit). And that at the core of their experiences, is this formless, attributeless awareness.

 

 

What happened to Ananda?

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

 

Then the student has to explore the validity of this realization by trying to shake the sense of certainty it brings to them. This happens through repeated logical refutations they must work through until there is no doubts left about their true nature as awareness itself. 
 

Nonduality means nothing is apart from awareness - it means every thing is made up of, and is an appearance of awareness to awareness. There is no thing that can exist apart from awareness. 

 

[dwai]

6 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

What happened to Ananda?

 

 

First get to sat and chit. Ananda follows naturally  

[stirling]

3 hours ago, dwai said:

The teacher then helps the student realize that the world that is observed is just a series of thought patterns appearing in the student’s mind. So the “world” doesn’t really have a separate existent reality apart from the mind. But since the mind itself is an object to the witnessing awareness, it too much be an appearance, much like the world.

 

Your entire first post is lovely work.

 

I call attention to this section only to add that this particular glimpse is really not that hard for anyone that is truly curious to explore how their perception of the world is for themselves, and has the requisite genuineness and openness. 

 

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

you’re welcome  

 

 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

And how do YOU know that? 

 

It is known that there are celestial bodies ( planets, stars, and moons ) that are beyond the atmosphere.  Scientists have been able to determine the approximate age of these objects.  Their age pre-dates the awareness of them.

 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

How do you KNOW that? 

 

In a similar manner, cancer cells can be collected and their age can be determined.  The cancer cells predates the awareness of it.

[Daniel]

3 hours ago, dwai said:

There is no thing that can exist apart from awareness. 

 

If this were true, there would be no illness prior to being aware of the symptoms.  No seed would ever germinate below the surface of the ground.

[Daniel]

3 hours ago, dwai said:

the world that is observed is just a series of thought patterns appearing in the student’s mind. So the “world” doesn’t really have a separate existent reality apart from the mind.

 

"the world that is observed is just a series of thought patterns appearing in the student’s mind"   <----  true

 

"So the “world” doesn’t really have a separate existent reality apart from the mind."  <---- false

 

The corrected version is below:

 

"So the “world that is observed” doesn’t really have a separate existent reality apart from the mind. <---- true

 

There is a world apart from the mind which is producing the "world that is observed".  The easiest way to prove it is to show someone an obscure language and ask them to translate it.  If they cannot, then this proves there is a world outside of their mind.  The language is understood in a mind that is not their own, thus, there are at least two minds which are isolated from each other.  The one mind is literally apart from the other mind.

 

 

[Cobie]

 

19 minutes ago, Daniel said:

“the world that is observed is just a series of thought patterns appearing in the student’s mind"   <----  true

"So the “world” doesn’t really have a separate existent reality apart from the mind."  <---- false

Exactly. 

 

 

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

First get to sat and chit. Ananda follows naturally  

According to Yogapedia and reading between the lines, adding Ananda is quite unlikely to just “follow naturally” -
 

“Some say that the experience of sat-chit-ananda is only accessible to a few advanced spiritual masters. Potentially, only 20 or 30 masters have ever been able to reach and remain in this state. It is easier for people to achieve an illuminated mind, but sat-chit-ananda is a higher state even than that.” https://www.yogapedia.com/definition/5838/sat-chit-ananda

The problem is Ananda cannot be achieved by mental gymnastics, Ananda can only be achieved by entering into the ‘spiritual heart’ where logic doesn’t reign supreme. 

[Daniel]

24 minutes ago, Bindi said:

The problem is Ananda cannot be achieved by mental gymnastics, Ananda can only be achieved by entering into the ‘spiritual heart’ where logic doesn’t reign supreme. 

 

From my perspective, it can be achieved intellectually, but it is much more difficult.  There are nealy infinite paths of connection from the heart (emotive) which are absolutely 100% true.  There is only 1 path of connection from mind (intellect) which is absolutely 100% true.  Because of this, the connection from the mind is highly error prone, but, it is still rewarding.  I personally prefer the paths of the heart, but, sadly, some are not capable of this through no fault of their own.  In addition, as time has progressed, knowledge has increased.  This is discouraging working with the heart in favor of working with the mind.   Where it is not discouraged it is often neglected. 

 

Because of this, I think it's important at this time to learn and teach the path of the mind so that those who want it and/or need it have access to it.

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Daniel

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

 

From my perspective, it can be achieved intellectually, but it is much more difficult.  There are nealy infinite paths of connection from the heart (emotive) which are absolutely 100% true. 
 

 

Given nearly infinite paths of connection from the heart (to the spiritual heart?) why would so few actually arrive? 
 

“You cannot know it (Heart) with your mind… You cannot realize it by imagination when I tell you here is the centre. The only direct way to realize it is to cease to fantasize, and try to be yourself. When you realize it, you automatically feel that the centre is there. This is the centre, the Heart, spoken of in the scriptures as hrit-guha-aral [Grace in the cave of the heart] ullam [‘that which is’, the heart].” ~ Ramana Maharshi

 

Quote

There is only 1 path of connection from mind (intellect) which is absolutely 100% true.  Because of this, the connection from the mind is highly error prone, but, it is still rewarding.  I personally prefer the paths of the heart, but, sadly, some are not capable of this through no fault of their own.  In addition, as time has progressed, knowledge has increased.  This is discouraging working with the heart in favor of working with the mind.   Where it is not discouraged it is often neglected. 

 

Because of this, I think it's important at this time to learn and teach the path of the mind so that those who want it and/or need it have access to it.

 

I’d be curious to hear how the intellect might traverse the heart which sits above the spiritual heart. 
 

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Bindi

[dwai]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

 

 

It is known that there are celestial bodies ( planets, stars, and moons ) that are beyond the atmosphere.  Scientists have been able to determine the approximate age of these objects.  Their age pre-dates the awareness of them.

 

 

In a similar manner, cancer cells can be collected and their age can be determined.  The cancer cells predates the awareness of it.

You are missing the point I’m afraid. What is not known is going to be known, and when it comes into the mind (through the various instruments of knowledge) it is also in the domain of awareness. It is pointless to ask why something is not known and then known. Because something that is knowable but is temporarily unknown, it is not outside the realm of awareness. It is simply not in the domain of the mind, until it is known. 

 

I think it is very important to understand the difference between the mind and awareness/consciousness. Mind is a stream of thought objects. Awareness is that which makes knowing possible. To claim something as known or unknown too requires awareness. Not awareness of this or that, but pure object-less awareness. 

[dwai]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Your entire first post is lovely work.

 

I call attention to this section only to add that this particular glimpse is really not that hard for anyone that is truly curious to explore how their perception of the world is for themselves, and has the requisite genuineness and openness. 

 

I agree. But more often than not, this is rejected as “too simple”, “too basic” or some such categorization. The reason why true nature is so elusive is because it underlies every phenomenon. When the mind is fixated on phenomena, the source is forgotten/neglected. 

[Sahaja]

4 hours ago, dwai said:

First get to sat and chit. Ananda follows naturally  

Curious if you are familiar with the term unmana (beyond the mind)  and how it might relate to the state you are describing from your perspective. It’s a tantric yoga concept that seems related to the topic.

[dwai]

43 minutes ago, Sahaja said:

Curious if you are familiar with the term unmana (beyond the mind)  and how it might relate to the state you are describing from your perspective. It’s a tantric yoga concept that seems related to the topic.

There are many terms and methods to get to this (true nature). I’m familiar with the term unmani through the unmani mudra, but not sure whether you are referring to the same thing. Do share - I would love to know more. 

[Sahaja]

The term is used by different authors in different ways. Abhinavagupta talks about it as the ultimate state of kundalini. My teacher talks about siva/sakti merging at this point (associated with the 7th level of sambavi mudra). It’s also mentioned in uccara practice of pranava (Aum, hrim or hum)  as the highest level that the mantra takes one. Here is a chart for the uccara practice that has some description of it that you might find interesting.  I’m sure it makes it look easier than it is!

Nº	STAGES		DURATION in mātrā(s)*	POINT OF EXPERIENCE	TATTVA	EXPERIENCE ACTING AS A MILESTONE	OTHER ACHIEVEMENTS AND FEATURES
1	AKĀRA	Gross utterance	1	In the navel	The lowest ones	The sound A is felt in the navel	The journey back to Śiva starts from here.
2	UKĀRA		1	In the heart	Prakṛti -13-	The sound U is felt in the heart	Realization of Prakṛti or the undifferentiated source from which this "material" universe has arisen.
3	MAKĀRA		1	In the mouth	Māyā -6-	The sound M (really M̐ or Anunāsika) is felt in the mouth	Realization of Māyā as the matrix giving rise to all causes that will end up bringing about the whole aggregate of objects and subjects in lower tattva-s or categories.
4	BINDÚ	Generic light	1/2	In the space between the eyebrows	Sadvidyā -5-	The vision of a dot of light in the middle of the eyebrows	Realization of the entire universe as compacted in the form of a dot of light (Bindu) symbolic of your present condition as the knower of that universe. Omnipotence dawns here.
5	ARDHACANDRA	Forms assumed by Nāda or divine inarticulate sound	1/4	In the forehead	Īśvara -4-	The vision of a half-moon in the forehead, which results from the eclipse of Bindu	You get to a state in which the objects stop being predominant and arises the predominance of the Supreme Subject. Omniscience dawns here.
6	NIRODHIKĀ or NIRODHINĪ		1/8	In the upper part of the forehead	Sadāśiva -3-	The vision of a straight line in the upper part of the forehead	Objectivity is vanished and only remains the subjective aspect of the universal Manifestation. If you deserve to keep advancing, you will be able to do it, but if you do not deserve it, you will not be able to go beyond this stage... until you deserve it really. Nobody decides that but the Supreme Consciousness.
7	NĀDÁ		1/16	In Suṣumnā	Sadāśiva -3-	A sound similar to the humming of bees or to the rippling produced by the rapids of a river, is heard	You feel that sound fills up the entire universe. Nāda is in fact a form assumed by the Nādānta stage itself.
8	NĀDĀNTA		1/32	In Brahmarandhra	Sadāśiva -3-	The sound of a bell (a cowbell indeed) is heard in Brahmarandhra	Perception of the first form taken by the Absolute Sound (Śabdabrahma) in his movement toward the universal Manifestation.
9	ŚAKTI or ĀÑJANĪ	Forms assumed by Samanā Herself	1/64	In the skin	Śakti -2-	Waves after waves of sublime bliss are felt in the skin, along with a perception of all experiences (past, present and future) in one's own life as occurring right now in a kind of Eternal Present	Cessation of the identification with the physical body and the subsequent expansion of knowledge. Omniscience that had merely dawned in the fifth stage of Ardhacandra, is now developed in the sphere of one's own individual life.
10	VYĀPIKĀ or VYĀPINĪ		1/128	At the root of the śikhā	Śakti -2-	Perception of all that existed, exists and will exist as existing right now in a sort of Eternal Present, simulta- neously	All objects residing here as thoughts are withdrawn into the Supreme Śakti or Power. Omniscience is fully developed.
11	SAMANĀ		1/256	In the śikhā	Śakti -2-	Experience of an activity of thinking without any object of thought	All temporal and spatial conditioning has been removed. Omnipotence, Omniscience and similar powers are at one's disposal.
12	UNMANĀ	The Highest Reality	1/512 (but it is really amātrā)	In the last part of the śikhā	Śiva -2-	Experience of the Highest Consciousness... what else might one say about it?	FINAL EMANCIPATION

[dwai]

37 minutes ago, Sahaja said:

The term is used by different authors in different ways. Abhinavagupta talks about it as the ultimate state of kundalini. My teacher talks about siva/sakti merging at this point (associated with the 7th level of sambavi mudra). It’s also mentioned in uccara practice of pranava (Aum, hrim or hum)  as the highest level that the mantra takes one. Here is a chart for the uccara practice that has some description of it that you might find interesting.  I’m sure it makes it look easier than it is!

Nº	STAGES		DURATION in mātrā(s)*	POINT OF EXPERIENCE	TATTVA	EXPERIENCE ACTING AS A MILESTONE	OTHER ACHIEVEMENTS AND FEATURES
1	AKĀRA	Gross utterance	1	In the navel	The lowest ones	The sound A is felt in the navel	The journey back to Śiva starts from here.
2	UKĀRA		1	In the heart	Prakṛti -13-	The sound U is felt in the heart	Realization of Prakṛti or the undifferentiated source from which this "material" universe has arisen.
3	MAKĀRA		1	In the mouth	Māyā -6-	The sound M (really M̐ or Anunāsika) is felt in the mouth	Realization of Māyā as the matrix giving rise to all causes that will end up bringing about the whole aggregate of objects and subjects in lower tattva-s or categories.
4	BINDÚ	Generic light	1/2	In the space between the eyebrows	Sadvidyā -5-	The vision of a dot of light in the middle of the eyebrows	Realization of the entire universe as compacted in the form of a dot of light (Bindu) symbolic of your present condition as the knower of that universe. Omnipotence dawns here.
5	ARDHACANDRA	Forms assumed by Nāda or divine inarticulate sound	1/4	In the forehead	Īśvara -4-	The vision of a half-moon in the forehead, which results from the eclipse of Bindu	You get to a state in which the objects stop being predominant and arises the predominance of the Supreme Subject. Omniscience dawns here.
6	NIRODHIKĀ or NIRODHINĪ		1/8	In the upper part of the forehead	Sadāśiva -3-	The vision of a straight line in the upper part of the forehead	Objectivity is vanished and only remains the subjective aspect of the universal Manifestation. If you deserve to keep advancing, you will be able to do it, but if you do not deserve it, you will not be able to go beyond this stage... until you deserve it really. Nobody decides that but the Supreme Consciousness.
7	NĀDÁ		1/16	In Suṣumnā	Sadāśiva -3-	A sound similar to the humming of bees or to the rippling produced by the rapids of a river, is heard	You feel that sound fills up the entire universe. Nāda is in fact a form assumed by the Nādānta stage itself.
8	NĀDĀNTA		1/32	In Brahmarandhra	Sadāśiva -3-	The sound of a bell (a cowbell indeed) is heard in Brahmarandhra	Perception of the first form taken by the Absolute Sound (Śabdabrahma) in his movement toward the universal Manifestation.
9	ŚAKTI or ĀÑJANĪ	Forms assumed by Samanā Herself	1/64	In the skin	Śakti -2-	Waves after waves of sublime bliss are felt in the skin, along with a perception of all experiences (past, present and future) in one's own life as occurring right now in a kind of Eternal Present	Cessation of the identification with the physical body and the subsequent expansion of knowledge. Omniscience that had merely dawned in the fifth stage of Ardhacandra, is now developed in the sphere of one's own individual life.
10	VYĀPIKĀ or VYĀPINĪ		1/128	At the root of the śikhā	Śakti -2-	Perception of all that existed, exists and will exist as existing right now in a sort of Eternal Present, simulta- neously	All objects residing here as thoughts are withdrawn into the Supreme Śakti or Power. Omniscience is fully developed.
11	SAMANĀ		1/256	In the śikhā	Śakti -2-	Experience of an activity of thinking without any object of thought	All temporal and spatial conditioning has been removed. Omnipotence, Omniscience and similar powers are at one's disposal.
12	UNMANĀ	The Highest Reality	1/512 (but it is really amātrā)	In the last part of the śikhā	Śiva -2-	Experience of the Highest Consciousness... what else might one say about it?	FINAL EMANCIPATION

I have only one semantic issue with the above - “experience of highest level of consciousness”. Consciousness cannot be experienced because it is what makes experience possible.  But I’m familiar with the KS ontological framework and feel it is very beautiful. Thanks for sharing  

[Cobie]

.
 

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

9 hours ago, dwai said:

… difference between the mind and awareness/consciousness …

I experience mind and consciousness as being different things.

 

7 hours ago, Sahaja said:

… experience of the highest level of consciousness … 

I do experience highest level of consciousness.

 

6 hours ago, dwai said:

… Consciousness cannot be experienced …

 

You say it’s not possible, but my heart tells me otherwise.   

 

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Cobie

[steve]

Such synchronicity exists here!

I was planning to add a thought or two about non-duality on Daniel's thread and came across this.

Much of what I was thinking to share has been said but I'll add just a bit, FWIW.

 

The term non-duality, when used out of context, is in fact a misnomer, IMO. In the teachings and guidance I've received the term is used almost exclusively in an experiential context.

 

Non-duality is used to describe one's personal, very intimate experience of the relationship between what seems to be a tangible, real sense of self (subject), and everything outside, even inside, that sense of self which feels as if it is not self (object). As we gradually begin to identify less and less with the label, concept, and actual feeling of self, through meditation primarily and study secondarily, the distinction between subject and object becomes less pronounced and less meaningful. Ultimately there may come a time when it dissolves completely and the entire field of experience simply presents itself as it is without distinction between self and other, subject and object. This is specifically what the term no -duality is used to denote. This can and often is, however briefly, experienced by anyone at any time under the right conditions. It can also manifest like an avalanche of realization, changing one's life and perspective permanently, which is what we tend to refer to when we discuss awakening and realization.

 

When the term non-duality is applied to address the very nature of reality, the relationship between different minds, and so forth, it is no longer as precise or applicable, IMO/E. The concept of non-duality as the mode of existence of reality is full of contradictions and errors because it is being used inappropriately. No concept or word is comprehensive and powerful enough to define the mode(s) of existence/non-existence and fabric of reality. In the teachings on non-duality I’ve received, the actual and direct experience of non-duality is considered to be beyond our mental and verbal capacity to capture or describe. Anything we say about it is not it. Once we approach the realm of experience of non-duality directly, words simply are no longer useful or accurate, they just get in the way of the clarity and immediacy of connection.

 

As to Daniel's valid point about not understanding an unfamiliar language, and related ‘contradictions of non-duality,’ the Bön and Buddhist teachings clearly state that each of our minds is separate and NOT connected to one another, otherwise if one person becomes awakened or enlightened, all people would simultaneously. There are many other more sophisticated examples to describe this. While non-duality is a very powerful and meaningful concept and realization, it breaks down as a description of reality. So the take away for me is that while the term non-duality is useful to describe the a potential realization that is very significant for my own personal growth and realization through meditation, it is not very useful or accurate when we try to apply it to reality in a philosophical or ontological sense. 

[Sahaja]

The non dual saiva tantrics take a different view. Man is actually is actually a manifestation of “God -Siva/Sakti” or consciousness  in a limited form.. Consciousness/God uses this restricted form to rediscover himself (Lilla) through the sheddings of these self limitations. Process of recognition of this is the insight associated with emancipation from these restrictions and return to true nature.

 

just giving a different view.

[Sahaja]

These tantrics actually were inclusive in that they provided for  practices at the dual level, the mixed dual and non dual level and at the non dual level, depending on where you were.. They also had the  concept of paramashiva/paramabrahman that seemed to go even beyond non dual (kind of tattva 0) in which siva/sakti were nested though talking about this is way beyond my pay grade. 

[dwai]

5 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

I experience mind and consciousness as being different things.

 

I do experience highest level of consciousness.

 

 

You say it’s not possible, but my heart tells me otherwise.   

 

 

 

It is commendable to experience rarified states of the mind - even the empty mind itself, which is as close as one can get to “experience” awareness/consciousness.