Khonsu mes

[oak]

Detail of what's inside the "circle"

 

[Apech]

13 hours ago, oak said:

Detail of what's inside the "circle"

 

 

They are using 'enxadas'(?) to dig the ground.  

 

Sorry I was bit drunk last night - when I get a chance I'll post some more on this.

[oak]

It's all right Apech, I've had a wedding today so the same happened with me. Tomorrow then...

Enxadas, yes. 

Edited September 28, 2023 by oak

[thelerner]

15 hours ago, oak said:

Detail of what's inside the "circle"

 

Is it me, or is the figure a bit.. aroused?  

[oak]

12 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Is it me, or is the figure a bit.. aroused?  

 

Well, I guess that I've created a reputation of seeing sex references in sacred art where others don't see any of that, so this time I've waited for someone to point it out first.

My conclusion is that either you are a pervert like me or there are some erect penises in the image.

[Daniel]

On 9/27/2023 at 4:05 PM, Apech said:

If I told you the great pyramid was a giant vacuum cleaner would you believe me?

 

Heck yeah I would.. that makes perfect sense... vessels... the ancient mystics used vessels, created a "spiritual" vaccum, sort of.  Drawing down the divine.  More like a honey pot.  But "vaccuum cleaner" works for me!  It's a big'un too.  A real beauty.  And a keeper, stood the test of time.

 

I was in belize going through caves where they did rituals... broken pottery all over the place.  The guide didn't really know what was happening.  They told us about the ritual as best they could.  But it matched the profile.  They intended to evoke the spirit/god/angel/demon/whatever, into the vessel.  Then they would smash it to release it.

[oak]

This detail of the whole image is to me one of two things:

1. An analogy of sex with agricultural work, the erect penises symbolize the hoes "fertilizing" the earth/soil.

Or...

2. The historian of religion Mircea Eliade in one of his books writes about ancient peoples communal orgies on cultivating fields. This was seen as work done by the community in order to fertilize the fields.

Do you know if ancient egyptians where into this @Apech ?

[Apech]

5 hours ago, oak said:

This detail of the whole image is to me one of two things:

1. An analogy of sex with agricultural work, the erect penises symbolize the hoes "fertilizing" the earth/soil.

Or...

2. The historian of religion Mircea Eliade in one of his books writes about ancient peoples communal orgies on cultivating fields. This was seen as work done by the community in order to fertilize the fields.

Do you know if ancient egyptians where into this @Apech ?

well spotted - the enxada/ hoe that they are using to ‘hack up the earth’ has in hieroglyphs the meaning ‘love’ - !

[oak]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

well spotted - the enxada/ hoe that they are using to ‘hack up the earth’ has in hieroglyphs the meaning ‘love’ - !

 

The things that I don't even know that I don't know.

[thelerner]

8 hours ago, oak said:

This detail of the whole image is to me one of two things:

1. An analogy of sex with agricultural work, the erect penises symbolize the hoes "fertilizing" the earth/soil.

 

 

2 hours ago, Apech said:

well spotted - the enxada/ hoe that they are using to ‘hack up the earth’ has in hieroglyphs the meaning ‘love’ - !

 

Tut Tut, blaming it on the hoes.  

makes sense to me.  

 

In the HBO series Rome (well done, relatively accurate) to Caesarian times, one of the lead characters and wife made love in their new field to ritually call for fertility.  

Edited September 29, 2023 by thelerner

[Apech]

Well I'm back from Bussaco and what is more lovely than to write about Egypt?

 

The Book of the Dead has an odd history which unlike modern books begins with less structure and becomes more and more consolidated over time.  The version which the pic is from is from quite a late version.  The earliest from the late 17th and early 18th dynasties were little more than collections of certain chapters (sometimes called spells) with associated vignettes (pictures).  At the time of Khonsu - mes they were producing versions with almost no writing and entirely made of pictures.  They are called 'mythological papyri by Egyptologists for no more reason than they like to give things good sounding names.  The Egyptians called the Book of the dead - the Chapters of Coming Forth by Day (and living after death).  The theme was a very special one - which will go some way to explaining the pic.

 

Some of the Chapters of the BoD as well as other New Kingdom underworld texts say that they were 'good on earth' as well as for the death.  So there was clearly some use for the living in them.  My thesis ( which most Egyptologists would not accept) is that they describe a form of what we might call energy work - something like neidan perhaps, thoughh of course quite different in some ways.

 

At the basis of the BoD is two themes - one is the cycle of the sun and the other is the god of the dead Osiris.  The sun was understood as being born anew each morning, growing old in the evening and then descending into the underworld which was the realm ruled and judged by Osiris.  At the sixth hour of the night the soul of the Sun and the soul of Osiris 'embraced' - the effect of which was to waken up Osiris from his deep sleep and also to refresh and re-nergise the sun in preparation for the new day.  This cycle was seen as eternal.  An eternal cosmological cycle.

 

On dying a person became an Osiris and would be called Osiris N (where N was their name) - so the dead person also had an opportunity of uniting with the cycling solar energy and renewing himself - although there was a lot more to this than that one event.  The journey through the underworld - which was called the Duat (a name which means star-realm) - was fraught with dangers and pitfalls and so a guide was needed.  This is why the Egyptians mapped the underworld in texts like the AmDuat and gave people the Book of the Dead as a collections of protective spells and guidance on how to traverse this difficult journey.

 

The Duat was not only accessible on death but also through dreams, in shamanic trans states and so on - we would also say in meditation.  So in effect the Duat was the inner world which we can travel through in life as well as after death.

 

You can see a pic of the whole papyrus here:

 

https://www.globalegyptianmuseum.org/detail.aspx?id=4574

 

a downloadable book about the whole collection of texts from this period can be found here:

 

https://archive.org/details/PiankoffRambovaMythologicalPapyriTexts

 

but beware many 'mistakes' therein.

 

Khonsu-mes is described on pgs 143 and 147  -

 

however oddly for them (because they are otherwise quite good) they read it in reverse order making the overall meaning totally obscured.

 

If anyone is still interested I will post more

 

 

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

8 hours ago, Apech said:

Well I'm back from Bussaco and what is more lovely than to write about Egypt?

 

The Book of the Dead has an odd history which unlike modern books begins with less structure and becomes more and more consolidated over time.  The version which the pic is from is from quite a late version.  The earliest from the late 17th and early 18th dynasties were little more than collections of certain chapters (sometimes called spells) with associated vignettes (pictures).  At the time of Khonsu - mes they were producing versions with almost no writing and entirely made of pictures.  They are called 'mythological papyri by Egyptologists for no more reason than they like to give things good sounding names.  The Egyptians called the Book of the dead - the Chapters of Coming Forth by Day (and living after death).  The theme was a very special one - which will go some way to explaining the pic.

 

Some of the Chapters of the BoD as well as other New Kingdom underworld texts say that they were 'good on earth' as well as for the death.  So there was clearly some use for the living in them.  My thesis ( which most Egyptologists would not accept) is that they describe a form of what we might call energy work - something like neidan perhaps, thoughh of course quite different in some ways.

 

At the basis of the BoD is two themes - one is the cycle of the sun and the other is the god of the dead Osiris.  The sun was understood as being born anew each morning, growing old in the evening and then descending into the underworld which was the realm ruled and judged by Osiris.  At the sixth hour of the night the soul of the Sun and the soul of Osiris 'embraced' - the effect of which was to waken up Osiris from his deep sleep and also to refresh and re-nergise the sun in preparation for the new day.  This cycle was seen as eternal.  An eternal cosmological cycle.

 

On dying a person became an Osiris and would be called Osiris N (where N was their name) - so the dead person also had an opportunity of uniting with the cycling solar energy and renewing himself - although there was a lot more to this than that one event.  The journey through the underworld - which was called the Duat (a name which means star-realm) - was fraught with dangers and pitfalls and so a guide was needed.  This is why the Egyptians mapped the underworld in texts like the AmDuat and gave people the Book of the Dead as a collections of protective spells and guidance on how to traverse this difficult journey.

 

The Duat was not only accessible on death but also through dreams, in shamanic trans states and so on - we would also say in meditation.  So in effect the Duat was the inner world which we can travel through in life as well as after death.

 

You can see a pic of the whole papyrus here:

 

https://www.globalegyptianmuseum.org/detail.aspx?id=4574

 

a downloadable book about the whole collection of texts from this period can be found here:

 

https://archive.org/details/PiankoffRambovaMythologicalPapyriTexts

 

but beware many 'mistakes' therein.

 

Khonsu-mes is described on pgs 143 and 147  -

 

however oddly for them (because they are otherwise quite good) they read it in reverse order making the overall meaning totally obscured.

 

If anyone is still interested I will post more

 

 

 

 

 

You do have my attention.

 

[oak]

29 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

You do have my attention.

 

Same here 🧐

[oak]

I really love Mircea Eliade's writings and curiously found this passage that just can't avoid sharing:

 

"What we find as soon as we place ourselves in the perspective of religious man of the archaic societies is that the world exists because it was created by the gods, and that the existence of the world itself "means" something, "wants to say" something, that the world is neither mute nor opaque, that it is not an inert thing without purpose or significance. For religious man, the cosmos "lives" and "speaks." The mere life of the cosmos is proof of its sanctity, since the cosmos was created by the gods and the gods show themselves to men through cosmic life. This is why, beginning at a certain stage of culture, man conceives of himself as a microcosm. He forms part of the gods' creation; in other words, he finds in himself the same sanctity that he recognizes in the cosmos. It follows that his life is homologized to cosmic life; as a divine work, the cosmos becomes the paradigmatic image of human existence. To cite a few examples: We have seen that marriage is valorized as a hierogamy of heaven and earth. But among the cultivators, the homology earth-woman is still more complex. Woman is assimilated to the soil, seed to the semen virile, and agricultural work to conjugal union. 'This woman has come like living soil: sow seed in her, ye men!" says the Atharva Veda (XIV, 2, 14). "Your women are as fields for you" (Koran, II, 225). A sterile queen laments, "I am like a field where nothing grows!" On the contrary, in a twelfth-century hymn the Virgin Mary is glorified as "ground not to be plowed, which brought forth fruit" (terra non arabilis quae fructum parturiit). "

(...)

" The existence of homo religious especially of the primitive, is open to the world; in living, religious man is never alone, part of the world fives in him. But we cannot say, as Hegel did, that primitive man is "buried in nature," that he has not yet found himself as distinct from nature, as himself. The Hindu who, embracing his wife, declares that she is Earth and he Heaven is at the same time fully conscious of his humanity and hers. The Austroasiatic cultivator who uses the same word, lak, to designate phallus and spade and, like so many other agriculturalists, assimilates seed to the semen virile knows perfectly well that his spade is an instrument that he made and that in tilling his field he performs agricultural work involving knowledge of a certain number of techniques. In other words, cosmic symbolism adds a new value to an object or action, without affecting their peculiar and immediate values."

🙂

[oak]

12 hours ago, Apech said:

  My thesis ( which most Egyptologists would not accept) is that they describe a form of what we might call energy work - something like neidan perhaps, thoughh of course quite different in some ways.

 

 

 

 

 

Hope you had a lovely time in Bussaco 🙂

The idea that I have is that most Egyptologists are Hermetists 🤔 if not for that what's the point of studying Egyptology anyway 😁

[Apech]

23 minutes ago, oak said:

 

Hope you had a lovely time in Bussaco 🙂

The idea that I have is that most Egyptologists are Hermetists 🤔 if not for that what's the point of studying Egyptology anyway 😁

 

Most Egyptologists are pretendy scientists and not Hermticists at all

 

[oak]

18 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Most Egyptologists are pretendy scientists and not Hermticists at all

 

Had no idea.

[Apech]

The Egyptian view of the cosmos was that it is composed of the souls of Gods.  So for instance, the sky is the soul of Nut and the sun is called the Great Eastern Soul.  It is not that the world is inhabited by gods but that it is made of them.  The word for soul is 'ba' which can be used interchangably with the word for god 'neter'.  A ba is a luminous energy capable of manifesting form.  So again for instance the sun might manifest his ba as a sacred bull, and so on.  The same word 'neter' was used for everything from a cosmological god, like Ra, to a demon in the underworld.  Everything was divine.  As the universe is made of these divine essences, or bas, there is a structure to the cosmos which is called 'ma'at'.  This is not a static order but a kind of living dynamic equilibrium between the numerous divine forces/entities which make up creation.  One of the key jobs of the king and his priests was to preserve ma'at.   So it was understood that negative and chaotic forces could interfere with the balance and harmony in the world.  One of the symbolic ways of showing things had gone wrong was to reverse the order of something.  So in the underworld judgement scene there is a goddess Ammit who consumes the souls of the unjustified (i.e. bad people), she has the head of a crocodile, the body of the leopard and the hind quarters of a hippo.  This is the exact reverse order of the great mother goddess Ta Urt who has the head of a hippo, body of the leopard and tail of a crocodile.  Also the Book of the Dead has many chapters about not going upside down, not eating faeces and so on which are about this same loss of ma'at.

 

This idea of a dynamic universe composed of living forces was transmitted through Western Hermetic Alchemy, the four elements, seven planets, heavenly spheres, the earth as a being and the world soul.  In the same way as the king in ancient times was required to establish and uphold ma'at, we too in our own ways, as co-creators in the dynamic field of life have the same responsibility of working for harmony, expelling negative entities, and understanding good order.  We each have as a component of our being a 'ba' or if you like divine essence - and in this sense we are gods ourselves.

 

 

[Apech]

Has everyone fallen asleep or shall I continue?

[Nungali]

On 30/09/2023 at 1:44 AM, Apech said:

well spotted - the enxada/ hoe that they are using to ‘hack up the earth’ has in hieroglyphs the meaning ‘love’ - !

 

'Ploughing the field' last night where you  ?  < nudge nudge , wink wink > .

 

I wished I had seen this thread earlier as i commented elsewhere on an extraction of it , regarding the image .

 

Do not despair cat !  You have Nungers' interest . 

 

( How did my explanation of it go down  -   when you where sober,  that is ) ?

 

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/55079-deleted/?page=5&tab=comments#comment-1014885

Edited October 4, 2023 by Nungali
https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/55079-deleted/?page=5&tab=comments#comment-1014885

[Nungali]

On 02/10/2023 at 10:10 PM, Apech said:

 

Most Egyptologists are pretendy scientists and not Hermticists at all

 

 

I am both      or ... a 'Neo-hermeticist' that has 'Neo-Egyptian' practices ( that are sorta like 'niedan' ) .

 

There is also 'The College of Hermetic Philosophers' , an unusual inter order 'collage' where various 'orders' / groups have admittance with the aim of sharing 'Hermetic Philosophy' , which often includes science .

 

And , in my view,  (and for Oak )  , most 'Egyptologists' that have an interest in 'Hermetics' do not, as such have 'Egyptology' as the source of that , but rather the 'Alexandrian Synthesis' - a collation of teachings from late period Egypt in Alexandria , from Egyptian, Greek, Jewish, Zoroastrian and other sources  .  After the decline in Egypt, the Hermetic centre moved to Harran  ( a most fascinating place at the time  and very significant in the development of the 'western mysteries' ) . From there it moved into Islam , helping to create its 'Golden Age ' and from there , eventually through 'The Enlightenment' process, into European societies  ... until, the development of modern science where they became 'discredited' ... by the western social paradigm .

 

However , in some areas , they seem to be rejoining  again , as science has enabled itself to look even deeper into things , and finds itself having to make rules, laws, exceptions, new ideas and theories which are, in some cases , just as 'fantastical' and 'magical' as the stuff they rejected a few centuries back .

 

Perhaps Hermetics realises this twin path that separates and joins back together , as it goes along  ?   ;

 

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Apech said:

Has everyone fallen asleep or shall I continue?

 

I'm here .... but you know me , I'm in a different time zone .

 

I have a very special affinity for Nu  and   Ma'at  .... got her wings tattooed on my forearms .

 

I am also a big fan of the idea of 'living forces transmitted ' (and transmuted ) ' through the planets' and then to Earth as a process of our pre birth incantatory development , to us and our lives on Earth ... and during that we pass back up through those realms , dealing with , refining, transmuting , and most importantly ,  balancing  ( Ma'at again )  those planetary energies .

 

 

 

Ma'at as the modern concept of 'Justice'  ( via Goddess 'Themis'  * { Greek }  )   ;

 

 

* Themis (/ˈθiːmɪs/; Ancient Greek: Θέμις, romanized: Themis, lit. 'justice, law, custom')^[2] is the goddess and personification of justice, divine order, law, and custom.

 

- she has the weighing scales but  in the Egyptian classic image the scales are there but   she does not hold them , its her feather on one side, she is observing . The actual weighing is the business of 'underworld desert jackals ' , and the recording done by , the early version of 'Hermes'  ( from whom the term Heremetic comes ) .

 

[Apech]

5 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

I'm here .... but you know me , I'm in a different time zone .

 

I have a very special affinity for Nu  and   Ma'at  .... got her wings tattooed on my forearms .

 

I am also a big fan of the idea of 'living forces transmitted ' (and transmuted ) ' through the planets' and then to Earth as a process of our pre birth incantatory development , to us and our lives on Earth ... and during that we pass back up through those realms , dealing with , refining, transmuting , and most importantly ,  balancing  ( Ma'at again )  those planetary energies .

 

 

 

Ma'at as the modern concept of 'Justice'  ( via Goddess 'Themis'  * { Greek }  )   ;

 

 

* Themis (/ˈθiːmɪs/; Ancient Greek: Θέμις, romanized: Themis, lit. 'justice, law, custom')^[2] is the goddess and personification of justice, divine order, law, and custom.

 

- she has the weighing scales but  in the Egyptian classic image the scales are there but   she does not hold them , its her feather on one side, she is observing . The actual weighing is the business of 'underworld desert jackals ' , and the recording done by , the early version of 'Hermes'  ( from whom the term Heremetic comes ) .

 

 

Something that might interest you from the same papyrus is these scenes:

 

 

Sorry it's a bit blurred.

 

What you see reading left to right is Thoth presenting Osiris as judge of the dead with the results of the weighing of the heart.  What the Egyptians called 'calculating the difference' - that is the difference in weight between the persons heart (representing their character and volition) and ma'at.  Then the weighing scales, then the deceased and his ka.  So here a state of harmony with ma'at is achieved.  This is followed by the square 'lake of flames' - which is a pool surrounded by torches - which I would take to be a state of balanced energy - then by the four steering oars of heaven - which are related to the four directions, four sons of Horus and are about the ability to orientate yourself in spiritual space - then the Bull of Heaven with the seven Hathors or seven skies - which represent I think seven increasingly subtle views of reality.

 

This is the point at which the deceased's soul has reached the East and is ascending into the sky to witness the sunrise.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Apech

[oak]

20 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Something that might interest you from the same papyrus is these scenes:

 

 

Sorry it's a bit blurred.

 

What you see reading left to right is Thoth presenting Osiris as judge of the dead with the results of the weighing of the heart. 

 

 

 

This might help.

[Apech]

21 minutes ago, oak said:

 

This might help.

 

 

Where are you getting the better pics?