Follow nature

[Mig]

6 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

IMO Follow nature doesn't mean to do exactly what nature does. It simply means to cope with nature. For example, flood is a natural cause of nature. The following action was dictated by nature is to avoid the flood by going to higher places. Indeed, it is not possible for human to create flood by following nature.

What is the closest sentence, explanation in Chinese? I see your example of flood, what about earthquakes, tornadoes, tsunamis. Is there any mention of how follow nature in Chinese?

[NaturaNaturans]

On the cosmic/natural law:

and the hymn to Zeus:

https://dailystoic.com/cleanthespoem/

Quote

 

«Observe always that everything is the result of a change, and get used to thinking that there is nothing Nature loves so well as to change existing forms and to make new ones like them.»

 

« all men die, but not all men die complaining

 

Quote

 

meditations, aurelius 

Edited December 14, 2023 by NaturaNaturans

[Taoist Texts]

12 hours ago, Cobie said:

Because ‘those who do not know’ write a lot of stupid commentaries.

exactly. like Jung said 'they dont have thoughts, they have opinions'. It amuses me to repeat that there is no word for 'nature' in ancient chinese'; and whatever it is translated as nature, nobody is required to 'follow' it. "to follow nature" is a meaningless made-up phrase, its a word salad

 

 

Quote

 

na·ture/ˈnāCHər/noun the phenomena of the physical world collectively, including plants, animals, the landscape, and other features and products of the earth, as opposed to humans or human creations.

"the breathtaking beauty of nature"

 

12 hours ago, Mig said:

So why people keep saying follow nature, emulate nature?

what does that even mean in english? to jump like a rabbit or something?

Quote

According to Cicero, the phrase “follow nature” was used by a lot of early philosophers, and basically summarizes the basic ideas of Greek humanistic ethics: that right and wrong is “something intimately adapted to our nature” (De Finibus, 5.12).  But Cicero also tells us that the Stoics in particular mean exactly three different things by the slogan.  Here they are, in the order given in De Finibus 4.14–15.https://ericsiggyscott.wordpress.com/2016/12/04/what-does-it-mean-to-follow-nature/

so this phrase was always meaningless. people just repeat it, and 'explain' it simply  because they do not think for themselves.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Taoist Texts

[wandelaar]

4 hours ago, Mig said:

Okay, I guess my problem is trying to understand "following nature". Did you understand it because it was common sense when you read it or is it because you found one sentence, one commentary or one explanation in one of the classics and that is how you understood it? And more problematic is when I hear people say the Dào is nature or the Dào follows nature, thus nature is 自 zì 然 rán

Now human nature is or should be a replica of nature and I can observe that some individuals grow nice and some grow mean or psychopaths as now we can watch videos as how some pack animals can be cruel within their own territory. As for injustice, I think that is for another discussion later.

 

Having a lot of discussions and reading a lot of commentaries did the trick. I don't remember any one instance where I finally got it, it was a gradual process. Tao is what lies at the basis of everything and thus also of nature. It would be having things upside down when you would say that Tao follows nature. Tao is what it is al of itself, otherwise it wouldn't be Tao as the foundation of everything else. There are lots of interpretations around but only the one I gave makes sense to me, and as there are lots of unproblematic rules of thumb in the TTC that also make sense to me I also like to choose the most reasonable interpretations for the problematic parts.

The TTC is amoral, it simply contains advise on how to survive in a dangerous world. Some mean people are "successful", but they seldom lead happy contented lives. And people who (unnecessarily) take up the sword often die by the sword. These are all rules of thumb without any guaranty. There is no way that always works. It just so happens that being a generally nice person will help you get out of trouble. But not always. The TTC isn't some magical solve-all book.

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by wandelaar

[wandelaar]

As for living naturally as a human being see Chapter 80. It's a bit extreme but the idea it clear: simple living without too much artificiality.

[wandelaar]

Mistake - nothing more to add.

Edited December 14, 2023 by wandelaar

[Taoist Texts]

Quote

The TTC is amoral

this is a great example how the western opinion of chinese concepts is a direct 180 degree opposite of the very  said chinese concepts. Imagine reading the title Tao-te, knowing full well that in chinese it literally stands for 'morality'

Quote

道德经    道德經    Dào dé jīng    the Book of Dao by Laozi or Lao-Tze, the sacred text of Daoism
道德    道德    dào dé    virtue; morality; ethics; CL:種|种[zhong3]

and then go ahead and claim that TTC is amoral. Its like black is white, war is peace mentality. In everything, not just TTC.

 I am endlessly fascinated how that even works in their minds. Also amused a bit.

[wandelaar]

The TTC is ethical in the sense of virtue ethics not in the sense of morality (moral rules and regulations). But as usual TT is cherry picking his sources to make his contrarian case. And he doesn't even hide the fact. In his own quote virtue is mentioned first and morality second. Virtue fits in with the rest of the TTC but morality doesn't. I prefer understanding above recalcitrant pedantry. But to each his own.

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

But as usual TT is cherry picking his sources

i cherry pick english dictionaries;)

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

The TTC is ethical in the sense of virtue ethics not in the sense of morality

Quote

eth·ics/ˈeTHiks/noun moral principles

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Virtue fits in with the rest of the TTC but morality doesn't.

Quote

vir·tue/ˈvərCHo͞o/noun behavior showing high moral standards.

so the dictionary says that ethics morality virtue are one and the same thing. but  westerners make up a distinction between them denying morality. it is because by now in the west words have no meaning in general. its called post-modernism. a more specific reason to deny morality is its  extinction in the west. "we dont judge over here. ok?"

[S:C]

6 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

s'. It amuses me to repeat that there is no word for 'nature' in ancient chinese'; and whatever it is translated as nature, nobody is required to 'follow' it.

What about xing 性? 

 

Does Mr. Pregadio 

translate it wrongly, in your opinion?

 

and can there be a „wrong translation“ in a postmodernist world?

 

Quote

it is because by now in the west words have no meaning in general. its called post-modernism. 

This started with Wittgenstein? Or even before?

 

Quote

o the dictionary says that ethics morality virtueare one and the same thing. 

It really depends on the dictionary, you are using, doesn’t it? 
Ethics might mean a broader concept of categorization, while morality is always an evaluation/opinion, in my point of view. Virtue however seems lost, as individual preference rules now. (There was a great quote about that around here, might post it later.)

 

[Nintendao]

6 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

what does that even mean in english? to jump like a rabbit or something?

 

Therian Quadrobics all the rage 😹

 

 

[SirPalomides]

I'd say the word "nature" is sufficiently vague and broad in application that there are, indeed, Chinese words that can stand in for it, depending on the meaning. But that's the problem, isn't it? How can we pinpoint nature and thereby also know what goes against nature? If we say "follow nature" then we also have to account for how something can arise against nature- can that be done without lapsing into some kind of dualist metaphysics? The Stoics avoided the question by adopting fatalism. Oftentimes "nature" is invoked to elevate preferences or historically bound views into cosmic principles. 

[NaturaNaturans]

41 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

so the dictionary says that ethics morality virtue are one and the same thing. but  westerners make up a distinction between them denying morality. it is because by now in the west words have no meaning in general. its called post-modernism. a more specific reason to deny morality is its  extinction in the west. "we dont judge over here. ok?"

Well, i disagree. It is not judgemental, but more practical, as you say, but it differs from common conceptions in that there is no «dont mastrubate because god says so.» 

 

edit: and more importantly it does not goes against nature, but embraces it.

Edited December 14, 2023 by NaturaNaturans

[wandelaar]

31 minutes ago, SirPalomides said:

I'd say the word "nature" is sufficiently vague and broad in application that there are, indeed, Chinese words that can stand in for it, depending on the meaning. But that's the problem, isn't it? How can we pinpoint nature and thereby also know what goes against nature? If we say "follow nature" then we also have to account for how something can arise against nature- can that be done without lapsing into some kind of dualist metaphysics? The Stoics avoided the question by adopting fatalism. Oftentimes "nature" is invoked to elevate preferences or historically bound views into cosmic principles. 

 

Strictly speaking nothing can go against nature, so there would be no point in telling people to follow nature. But the solution is simple enough: to "follow nature" also has a more practical meaning as acting with a deep understanding of how nature works, which is the most practical thing to do anyhow. Clearly there are people who act foolishly and there are also people who act with understanding, and both follow nature in the strict sense of the phrase. But only those with a deep understanding (which need not be discursive) of nature follow nature in the practical sense of the phrase.

 

In specific cases imitating water, plants, animals , etc. could be the way to go, but this all depends on circumstances. I wouldn't consider imitation as the primary practical meaning of "following nature".

Edited December 14, 2023 by wandelaar

[Taoist Texts]

50 minutes ago, S:C said:

What about xing 性? 

xing is nature in a sense of a characteristic of an object; this thread is a about nature in a sense of a changing physical--biological universe - there is no exact single world for the latter, nor a combined notion for it in chinese

50 minutes ago, S:C said:

Does Mr. Pregadio translate it wrongly, in your opinion?

no he does  a fine job. he does not conflate world-nature with object-nature or man-nature. he checked in on this forum long time ago btw

56 minutes ago, S:C said:

This started with Wittgenstein? Or even before?

in china it started in the Conf's time hence he had to do  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectification_of_names

in europe it started with christianity  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credo_quia_absurdum

1 hour ago, S:C said:

and can there be a „wrong translation“ in a postmodernist world?

of course there can. screw the world, you are the decider whats wrong and whats right

1 hour ago, S:C said:

It really depends on the dictionary, you are using, doesn’t it?

there are shades of gray sure

46 minutes ago, SirPalomides said:

without lapsing into some kind of dualist metaphysics

dualism is the cure not the disease

[S:C]

11 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

of course there can. screw the world, you are the decider whats wrong and whats right

I start to like you.  

Thanks for the explanation! I probably do conflate object nature with world nature, it however feels a bit like a mistake.

[S:C]

1 hour ago, SirPalomides said:

If we say "follow nature" then we also have to account for how something can arise against nature- can that be done without lapsing into some kind of dualist metaphysics? The Stoics avoided the question by adopting fatalism. 

One way for certain. Does it mean to follow one’s emotion to the extent that they arise (epicureanism) or try to find a (humming) center of equilibrium / disattachment for emotional disturbances, as that might be the ‚individualIty‘ that goes against world-nature? 

How is it even possible that separate  consciousnesses do exist - without relying on parables? (Been carrying that question for the past 24 years.)
 

[S:C]

1 hour ago, Nintendao said:

😹

Classic example of going against nature? (but maybe it‘s her ‚true will‘ or ‚khvarenah‘….so she follows ‚her (perceived) nature‘ modern times are so confusing...)

Edited December 14, 2023 by S:C

[wandelaar]

7 minutes ago, S:C said:

Does it mean to follow one’s emotion to the extent that they arise (epicureanism)

 

Epicureanism is much more subtle than that. In fact it's a perfect example of how understanding nature (including human nature) leads one to an enlightened form of self-restraint in following one's emotions.

[S:C]

25 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Epicureanism is much more subtle than that. In fact it's a perfect example of how understanding nature (including human nature) leads one to an enlightened form of self-restraint in following one's emotions.

Agreed. What I meant was rather ‚hedonism‘ or ‚the water way‘ or ‚eudaimonia’ or ‚living on the edge’ or ‚ to the fullest’. Oh no, I am mixing concepts again, damn postmodernism, it gets me so confused.

Edited December 14, 2023 by S:C

[wandelaar]

Postmodernism is a pseudo-intellectual fad, nothing more. Serious philosophers (or common people even) should move on and leave the fashionable bullshit behind.

Edited December 14, 2023 by wandelaar

[S:C]

Spoiler

On second thought, I don’t know if I really like that opinion, or if I don’t like it’s opposite, too: both opinions are valid, no? 

Please, - do carry on! And thanks for the reminder on my too simplest understanding of Epicureanism @wandelaar.

Edited December 14, 2023 by S:C

[Cobie]

 

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

… westerners … denying morality … "we dont judge over here. ok?”

 

Ime (in the Netherlands) the atheist mainstream wants to impose their atheist morality (as opposed to the preceding Christian one). And they are extremely judgemental. Any ‘transgression’ of their atheist taboos is severely punished, backed by strict laws (Christians are fair game).

 

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

12 hours ago, Mig said:

What is the closest sentence, explanation in Chinese? I see your example of flood, what about earthquakes, tornadoes, tsunamis. Is there any mention of how follow nature in Chinese?

One sentence will not say it all. It is the principle that applies to all. Humans learn from the disasters to cope with them in the future. There is nothing to follow disasters in a negative way.

[wandelaar]

What I don't like about postmodernists is that they pretend to be relativists while at the same time attacking anyone who doesn't agree with them. In an absolute sense indeed we don't know anything for sure, but this doesn't mean that any opinion is as good as any other. Is the opinion that there is no internet site called The Dao Bums as good as the opinion that there is an internet site called The Dao Bums on which we are currently having a discussion? In an absolute sense maybe. But not in the common sense world we live in.

 

For common sense purposes I still adhere to this principle: https://theconversation.com/no-youre-not-entitled-to-your-opinion-9978