Taoism; how does it all work?

[Bindi]

37 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

It seems there could be some problems if that saying is over generalized? For instance: "Man follows ways of Earth the Earth follows the ways of Heaven, Heaven follows the way of Tao, Tao follows it own ways"  from chapter 25. Thus with the ways of Man and Earth often being the ways of the jungle, or of claw and tooth.  Thus one would have to go upstream to higher ways compared to just letting things go downstream to the ways of the jungle and which some might take as not letting nature take its course.

Agreed, it should be ‘Do not interrupt the course of heaven’, which we do interrupt by default because we’re messed up. It shouldn’t be a return to the ways of nature. 

[Daniel]

59 minutes ago, Cobie said:

You’ve got the attention span of a gnat; the bellows discussion already abandoned? 

 

 

 

No, not at all.  I think we should move it to a new thread, quite honestly.  The thing is, I thought we had already moved on from the bellows, and were instead talking about the 'valley' which is actually a 'soaring-immortal-spirit'.

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Daniel

[ChiDragon]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

It seems there could be some problems if that saying is over generalized? For instance: "Man follows ways of Earth the Earth follows the ways of Heaven, Heaven follows the way of Tao, Tao follows it own ways"  from chapter 25. Thus with the ways of Man and Earth often being the ways of the jungle, or of claw and tooth.  Thus one would have to go upstream to higher ways compared to just letting things go downstream to the ways of the jungle and which some might take as not letting nature take its course.

19. 人法地
20. 地法天
21. 天法道
22. 道法自然

19.Human follows Earth.
20.Earth follows Heaven.
21.Heaven follows Tao.
22.Tao follows its own nature.

"Earth often being the ways of the jungle, or of claw and tooth," that is the way of Earth. Human has to cope with that. Human follows Earth means that human does what Earth dictates human what has to be done. In your scenario, one would have to go upstream to higher ways is letting nature take its course.

"to just letting things go downstream to the ways of the jungle and which some might take as not letting nature take its course." I couldn't agree more.

BTW The philosophy is to follow nature for the good, rather than the bed.

Edited August 29, 2023 by ChiDragon

[old3bob]

39 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

19. 人法地
20. 地法天
21. 天法道
22. 道法自然

19.Human follows Earth.
20.Earth follows Heaven.
21.Heaven follows Tao.
22.Tao follows its own nature.

"Earth often being the ways of the jungle, or of claw and tooth," that is the way of Earth. Human has to cope with that. Human follows Earth means that human does what Earth dictates human what has to be done. In your scenario, one would have to go upstream to higher ways is letting nature take its course.

"to just letting things go downstream to the ways of the jungle and which some might take as not letting nature take its course." I couldn't agree more.

BTW The philosophy is to follow nature for the good, rather than the bed.

 

ok, but Tao also "goes far" to the ten thousand so to speak, yet returns as in "only no-thing can enter into no space" so we have both flows...

[Mig]

8 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

The whole idea in the philosophy of  Taoism is about Wu Wei(無為), let nature take its course, do not interrupt the course of nature. It seems you have a good grips of Taoism.

I am always lost with those big words and sentences that anyone can get lost. What does: "let nature take its course". Could you give an example? Of course I have to follow day after day or night after night because that is how it is, nothing I can do about it. If there is an earthquake I cannot follow the devastation of destruction and I better find refuge somewhere. Also, I cannot do anything about or against an earthquake. So what is left? How can I do not interrupt the course of nature?

Thanks

[ChiDragon]

On 8/28/2023 at 10:28 PM, Mig said:

I am always lost with those big words and sentences that anyone can get lost. What does: "let nature take its course". Could you give an example? Of course I have to follow day after day or night after night because that is how it is, nothing I can do about it. If there is an earthquake I cannot follow the devastation of destruction and I better find refuge somewhere. Also, I cannot do anything about or against an earthquake. So what is left? How can I do not interrupt the course of nature?

Thanks

Hi Mig, we have to look at it this way.
Earthquake is the course of nature. There is nothing we could do about it. Humans just have to cope with it. Thus only nature can interrupt human but not the other way around. In order to follow the course of nature by human is like you said: ".....and I better find refuge somewhere."

"Of course I have to follow day after day or night after night because that is how it is, nothing I can do about it. "
That is where "let nature take its course" comes into play.

In order to study and follow the philosophy of Laotze. We must keep in mind that "let nature take its course" is to hope for the best in all aspects.
 

Edited September 4, 2023 by ChiDragon

[silent thunder]

Non interference in natural processes...  to determine wu wei (action without forcing) in the context of what is natural one should consider what they consider a natural process and how they then define 'interference' in that process.

 

Do we consider any action we take as a human to be a natural expression of the human position within the environment as an organism that comprises that environment?  Then any action we take is a part of the natural process and is not interference.  It cannot be otherwise.  If humans however are not a natural part of the environment as an organism within that system, then any action we take will be interference. 

 

I used to consider cities and humans unnatural within the context of earth and I still do.  More recently however, I consider human nature out of balance but not unnatural to itself.  Humans and their behavior everywhere congregate and populate and eventually organize into cities, so cities seem a natural process for humans.  This seemingly being out of balance with the rest of earth however.  So it may be a natural process for humans to behave as we do, but within the context of earth and the rest of its organisms, it seems out of balance or a form of interference.

 

Are humans as they live a natural process?  Depends on one's perspective.

 

Another way to frame this question is what is the distinction between the environment and organisms?  Environments are the organisms of which they are comprised.  The organisms are the environment and the environment is entirely comprised of the organisms that inhabit it.  This is natural.  Even lack of balance seems a natural expression.  Trees grow until they become imbalanced and then they breach and fall and return to the soil.  So aspects of imbalance seem quite natural.  My relationship to this type of judgement is unfolding and evolving as my local awareness continues to manifest and explore here.

 

It's a deep rabbit hole to explore, the concept of what is natural and what comprises interference and what is balanced. 

 

In one context any action may be seen as interfering in what is unfolding, unless one takes into context the very presence of one's organism/object within an environment to be a natural presence and thus a natural part of whatever unfolds within the system whether acting or not.  Natural does not have to be balanced according to my projections of this human awareness. 

 

Then again, my human projection is what arises within the context of this environment, so...

 

On a more concrete level perhaps this example may serve.  The other day a sparrow flew into our home and settled on one of the blades of our ceiling fan.  We welcomed her, then opened all the doors wide and watched.  She didn't leave.  Occasionally she'd fly about the living room and dining area/kitchen, settling on the curtain rod etc.  She ended up spending the night.  The next morning, I arose early and opened all the doors and took screens out of the windows to give her more options for leaving.  When the sparrow unexplectedly flew down and landed on the carpet in the middle of the living room floor, our maine coon pounced on her without hesitation.  Natural.

 

And I moved over without hesitation and scruffed him and pulled him away.  Being unblooded, he had not used claws and so the sparrow, unharmed flew up and perched again on the blade of the ceiling fan.  Natural.  A few hours later, she flew out the kitchen window and returned to her home in the bushes outside that window.  All of it arose without overthinking.  Each thought and action arose unbidden 'of itself' and seemed entirely natural.

 

It was natural for my cat to pounce.  It was equally natural for me to 'interfere' in this instance.  I did not ponder or critique or deliberate.  The action arose tzujan, of itself.  So to me, this comprises a context of natural expression and not interference.  The sparrow however, may have seen my action as a welcome interference in her predicament.  Who can know?

 

However, in a similar vein but different context, when I've encountered predators finishing off their prey outside my home, I had no instinct to interfere in this process, for even though I may have some empathy for the dying prey, I realize that for the fox and its successful hunt means breakfast for a litter of kits back in the den. 

 

I still find human behavior to be unnatural to a degree within the context of the organism of the earth and the overall environment, but as human behavior is so maddenlingly consistent within its intrinsically unbalanced expressions I have come to consider that this unbalanced behavior is natural to us and simply implies our inevitable breach and return to the soil in the long context of life on this planet. 

 

Now, whether humans arose here 'naturally' or were 'interfered' with, is another rabbit hole of its own.

 

And to briefly address the notion of 'balance' as it seems inseperable to my mind with this conversation of what is natural and what is interference.  I'm increasingly coming to an awareness of the sentiment that there is no such thing as balance anywhere in the manifest universe (aside from our own projections of personal definitions of such). 

 

For a state of balance (at least within any manifest system as I have encountered it) would imply stasis and no where among the manifest are we ever stagnant, unmoving or still.  Reality is movement.  Movement is inertial and seemingly tends always towards balance, yet balance is never fully realized, for that would be static and nothing among the manifest is ever static.

 

Even in the seeming stillness of deep meditation, our body is a flurry of motion, hormone production, blood, digestion etc and eventually even the relative stillness of mind results in a return to thinking.  Combine that with the fact that our planet spins at 1,000 mph, revolves about the sun at roughly 65,000 mph and our solar system revolves about the galactic center at some half a million miles per hour we are never experiencing objective balance or stillness so all notions and conversations of balance (for me) require an acknowledgement that any notion of balance is one that is relative and subjective to the confines of how it is addressed in mind and is dependent on the current definitions one uses for the symbols (words) utilized. 

 

Perhaps the overall motion of the universe with all it's evolving conditions on some grand scale is balanced... this could be possible.  The Hermetic principle that all seeming contradictions or paradoxes of one level of mind are reconciled at another perhaps less myopic level seems potentially relevant. 

 

*shrug* 

 

I'm going for a walk.  It seems natural. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by silent thunder

[Mig]

On 8/30/2023 at 1:25 PM, ChiDragon said:

Hi Mig, we have to look at it this way.
Earthquake is the course of nature. There is nothing we could do about it. Humans just have to cope with it. Thus only nature can interrupt human but not the other way around. In order to follow the course of nature by human is like you said: ".....and I better find refuge somewhere."

"Of course I have to follow day after day or night after night because that is how it is, nothing I can do about it. "
That is where "let nature take its course" comes into play.

In order to study and follow the philosophy of Laitze. We must keep in mind that "let nature take its course" is to hope for the best in all aspects.
 

Thanks and let's see if I follow you with this reasoning and probably I am overthinking. But for the sake of clarity, I have a garden in the backyard and if I let the nature takes it course, the garden will be devastated by insects, weeds and even the soil may lack nutrients, so I should just let nature do its thing? If I take care of my garden, I need to work daily to keep it clean, off insects, weeds and other mammals and birds that like my veggies or fruits and I feel that in obstructing nature. It seems that the Chinese term is more explicit than English when you say順其自然 shùn qí zì rán