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Regarding monotheism, there are many shades.

As usual, the world is not black & white.

For example, although there are historians who say that the jews stepped in and out of monotheism at multiple times, we could assume that Prophet Moses established a pure monotheistic faith in the beginning and that it had to be restored many times in history, starting from the golden calf incident.

There are many currents in judaism, some of them are religious. Sometimes, it's a pure monotheism... sometimes there are some devotions to saints.

Apostolic christianity has a peculiar connotation: the idea (present somewhere in St. Paul literature. I can't quote atm) that christians can become like gods after the resurrection. And sometimes, even before through special merits of martyrdom.

So, after an original reset of the entire pantheon and the setting of a pure monotheism in the beginning, the christians started to refill the ranks of minor gods with... saints.

But these saints were originally human beings and any christian can strive to join their ranks.

At the end of times, everyone will be either a saint or a damned... and there will be a pure monotheism again.

Also, they constitute the "triumphant church", an assembly of elevated soul and the "militant church" can ask for their assistance.

Thus, paving the way for various devotions.

There are other currents in christianity that reject devotion to saints and tend to be more "monotheistic" in nature, although the idea of the Trinity might be interpreted like "a plurality of gods" from the outside.

Islam tends to be more strictly monotheistic, but there are many currents that (for example) tend to elevate Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) above the state of a human being, for example teaching that he was created from the light of God and that the entire creation was made for him. In time, they'll turn him into a Jesus. Also, devotion to saints is widespread in certain areas.

Again, there are many shades here as well.

In conclusion, I believe that what makes those faith monotheistic is the idea of a supreme God that stands above the creation and the worship of him alone. The shades are when people pray to other beings, but when those beings are understood to be his creation and devoted to him alone, I think that the spirit of monotheism is somehow preserved.

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2 hours ago, Jadespear said:

It sounds like you have been targeted by spiritual entities. 聽I was once too... 聽the ones that targeted me were not nice for a time, and some eventually were. 聽The hindus know and acknowledge that it is normal to first encounter negative beings, because there are many of them and most people aren't developed enough in the positive direction to only see and be affected by only positive beings. 聽However, eventually as one grows in truth and light they attract more positive than negative. 聽

:)

2 hours ago, Jadespear said:

After much reflection in trying to figure out why spirits visited me, all I can deduce is that they were attracted to me because of my own fears, lack of conscience, and being uncertain about the basics of good and evil, etc. 聽I was in a search mode in that period in my life, just as it sounds like you were. 聽From what I have learned about the invisible world that surrounds us, the following are true and have proven themselves to be true multiple times over:

Often though , it is not a 'visit' it is a part of our own psyche we do not realise or own .聽 Like a child sees certain things relating to itself as external , and as they develop , they realise its a part of 'themselves'聽 .聽聽 . .聽 and might even think they are funny weird things聽 !聽

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Or an 'external spirit' might act differently depending on the person .....聽 people I thought where idiots and should not be where they where or doing what they where doing聽 where driven out in fear by a 'screaming angry Aboriginal woman spirit' from a聽 place . And that happened more than once .

Years later I met a lovely kind spirited woman who worked as a midwife,聽 who had moved into the same place聽聽 I asked her if she had met the old Aboriginal woman spirit and she was surprised , thinking it was just an experience she was having , that I knew about her. " She is a聽 nice old lady ."聽 the new resident said .

Then there are people that fiddle with stuff that they should not , or the wrong way , or didnt follow instructions and ended up getting their arse kicked by 'guardians' .聽

2 hours ago, Jadespear said:

1. 聽Like attracts like. 聽Spiritual beings are around us all the time. 聽The types of beings (positive, negative, neutral, etc.) are drawn to the qualities that one exudes in thought mostly, and also in emotion. 聽Our minds are like radios that send out messages which they very easily hear, they can also speak thoughts into your mind if it is open enough and without any conviction that it is yours and is protected by you. 聽Hence, the negative ones are drawn to delude, coerce, and mess your life up. 聽The positive ones obviously do the opposite, they help, nurture, and provide encouragement towards the good. 聽When you are in the " I don't know what things really are" mode of being - you are an instant target for negative beings, because you are very easily manipulated, and they love to manipulate people.聽

Jut like people do聽 ;)

.....聽 wanna聽聽 buy an exorcism ?

2 hours ago, Jadespear said:

2. Magic, spirituality, metaphysics ( whatever you want to call all of that ) - is not a game. 聽It is a science that obeys certain laws just like cause and effect, etc. 聽If you play around with it without knowing what you're doing, your liable to make mistakes and cause things you'll probably regret, and also are open to influence from a dimension you don't fully understand - which puts you into a more or less victim position. 聽Yet another reason, why caution and discretion are basically the utmost important thing when learning about all of that. 聽There is just a lot to know, and it is hard to really grasp it all in a way that is safe if you randomly explore stuff like a fool in the woods. 聽The invisible world, magic, and spirituality are actually in my mind the highest things a person can hope to comprehend - and they are the most true and fundamental to existence itself. 聽I mean, what more is there when you know why everything is the way it is and can actually attest to the true validity of its objective truth? 聽Knowing is one part of the path, wisdom is the other. 聽

yeah but .... he doesnt like that .

I dont聽 know how many times I have made the same analogy with the metaphor of the electrician .....聽聽 would you randomly start sticking a knife in the plug to see 'what's up'聽聽 ?

Chaos Magick , Man ... it's all the go ... who needs rules ?聽

2 hours ago, Jadespear said:

3. We have more influence in the outcomes of our lives the more that we know about all of the above. 聽Thats why the spiritual path is a timeless tradition and is what eventually everyone must go through at some point. 聽It's like an evolution of sorts that is part of the path of existence. 聽Everyone and everything wants to have total control over their lives so they can enjoy them to their fullest extent... no one actually likes sorrow and sadness, they can't be endured forever because the will of God that is in us and everything doesn't permit it to be so. 聽Existence wants to enjoy itself. 聽

That聽 deserves its own 'like' .

I enjoy sheer聽 ... existence ... but this is step beyond .聽聽

The 'White Gnostic Thelemite聽 Nuit Devotee ' would certainly agree !

2 hours ago, Jadespear said:

4. There is always hope. 聽Hope is an eternal principle that cannot die. 聽

5. There is always consequence. 聽No one can escape this. 聽

In my view, an accomplished Magician聽 helps entities evolve and incorporates聽 them holistically for further development and liberation .

聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽 THE MAGICIAN

O Lord, deliver me from hell's great fear and gloom!
Loose thou my spirit from the larvae of the tomb!
I seek them in their dread abodes without affright:
On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

I bid the night conceive the glittering hemisphere.
Arise, O sun, arise! O moon, shine white and clear!
I seek them in their dread abodes without affright:
On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

Their faces and their shapes are terrible and strange.
These devils by my might to angels I will change.
These nameless horrors I address without affright:
On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

These are the phantoms pale of mine astonied view,
Yet none but I their blasted beauty can renew;
For to the abyss of hell I plunge without affright:
On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

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26 minutes ago, Nungali said:

聽聽 A聽聽 real聽 Magician聽 helps entities evolve and incorporates聽 them holistically for further development and liberation .

... and a fake magician has not read Darwin's book and the entities think that he's not competent enough to evolve them.

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2 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

Regarding monotheism, there are many shades.

As usual, the world is not black & white.

:D聽聽聽 - That's why we have terms like Henotheism , Monolatrism, Deism, Pantheism ... all 'shades' of monotheism .

....聽 and to avoid further disputes ;

Spoiler

Monotheism is the belief in the existence of a single god.

Deism is actually a form of monotheism... the belief that the single existing god is personal in nature .

Henotheism is the聽 adherence to one particular god out of several.

Monolatry is the聽 worship of one god without denial of the existence of other gods.

Pantheism is the belief that everything in creation is the one God .

- and the world聽 does exist in duality ...that produces a multiplication of forms .

Quote

For example, although there are historians who say that the jews stepped in and out of monotheism at multiple times, we could assume that Prophet Moses established a pure monotheistic faith in the beginning and that it had to be restored many times in history, starting from the golden calf incident.

We can assume whatever and wherever聽 our thoughts聽 (or conditionings ) lead us .

However , many historical sources , cross referencing of history, archaeology , comparative textual analysis ... and even the opinions of more progressive Rabbis聽 point to no such times or beginnings with a belief like that .聽 Its a made up story .聽聽 The Moses stuff is a later hotchpotch of聽聽 sources and memories and cultural borrowings from Babylon, Egypt and other places . The story is clearly borrowed like most of the Old Testament myths聽 .聽聽 And concocted in a retrograde discovery of 'ancient texts'聽 ... 'found'聽 in a cave聽 ... etc etc . It was a political move of certain elites to create a reverse engineered history and identity .

I heard a rabbi admit all that , and he added ; " Sure it's story聽 and made up .... but what a great story !聽 It is so inspiring and wonderful that it has enabled Jewish people to rise up, come together , support each other and exist through all sorts of trials and tribulations , not like many others have ever had to suffer before . And we are still here ! "

.... and he was right about that .聽 And that is the function of religion ... or聽 that should be the function of it .

Quote

There are many currents in judaism, some of them are religious. Sometimes, it's a pure monotheism... sometimes there are some devotions to saints.

get-smart-confused.gif

Hasidim are nothing like聽 Catholic saints .

Quote

Apostolic christianity has a peculiar connotation: the idea (present somewhere in St. Paul literature. I can't quote atm) that christians can become like gods after the resurrection. And sometimes, even before through special merits of martyrdom.

So, after an original reset of the entire pantheon and the setting of a pure monotheism in the beginning, the christians started to refill the ranks of minor gods with... saints.

Since its a 'non quote'聽聽 it could be a mistaken concept .聽 You might be thinking of Christian Divinization , a concept that came from聽 the term 'apotheosis'聽 - to make divine ... via God's 'grace' .聽 You will be made 'divine'聽 as in be immortal and in heaven聽 but聽 :

". Although it literally means to become divine, or to become God, most Christian denominations do not interpret the doctrine as implying an overcoming of a fundamental metaphysical difference between God and humanity. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divinization_(Christian)

Quote

But these saints were originally human beings and any christian can strive to join their ranks.

If you are a Lutheran Christian聽聽 every Christian is already in their ranks . 聽

But if you are a Protestant ....聽 you can't be a Catholic saint .聽

Quote

At the end of times, everyone will be either a saint or a damned... and there will be a pure monotheism again.

get-smart-confused.gifget-smart-confused.gifget-smart-confused.gif

Quote

Also, they constitute the "triumphant church", an assembly of elevated soul and the "militant church" can ask for their assistance.

Thus, paving the way for various devotions.

There are other currents in christianity that reject devotion to saints and tend to be more "monotheistic" in nature, although the idea of the Trinity might be interpreted like "a plurality of gods" from the outside.

Hang on ... I am still trying to recover from聽聽 how the world got聽 Monotheism forced back onto it because of the apocalypse 聽 ... thats straight out of Zoroastrian eschatology聽 ... its even got a term聽聽 .....聽聽 ( probing memory聽 )聽聽聽 .... nah , that one eluded me .

......

Oh yeah ... that聽 three in one God thing聽 .聽聽聽聽聽 The 'True and Single God '聽聽聽 :)聽 ... not like those Hindu pagan / heathens ;

Brahma-rosary-alms-bowl-Hinduism-bow-collection.jpg

Daoism solves this 'conundrum'聽 in a few short words .聽 :)

Quote

Islam tends to be more strictly monotheistic, but there are many currents that (for example) tend to elevate Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) above the state of a human being, for example teaching that he was created from the light of God and that the entire creation was made for him. In time, they'll turn him into a Jesus. Also, devotion to saints is widespread in certain areas.

Nah .聽 It works on聽 three levels . Just because Mohammed is elevated above Human does not mean he is seen as a God (or even sillier , one asserting that 'he might be' elevated to God position times to come) 聽 .聽聽 Its an old concept that started before Islam , was adopted by Islam and continues on after Islam in the Baha'i Faith ;聽 The three 'realms of聽 ;聽 God , The Prophet/s, The People . All linked together .

In Baha'i ;聽 Words of God , Manifestation of God, Creation .

Greatest-Name-Emblem2.jpg

Any saints in Islam would be under the umbrella of聽 Sufis .聽 And their trip is聽 Divinization聽 .聽 But 'Islamic Divinization' is聽 virtually apostate and heresy .聽

As Mansur el-Hallaj聽 said :

" I am the truth ! And in my turban is wrapped nothing聽 but God ! "

and look what they did to him !

440px-Hallaj.jpg

Quote

In conclusion, I believe that what makes those faith monotheistic is the idea of a supreme God that stands above the creation and the worship of him alone

:D聽聽 Yeah , that's the idea聽聽 ... but that is not what they do聽 (except Islam ) .. which is what the previous posts about 'supposed monotheistic religions' where all about .

Quote

. The shades are when people pray to other beings, but when those beings are understood to be his creation and devoted to him alone, I think that the spirit of monotheism is somehow preserved.

Yes, that's right , as they are not seen as God or Gods but as special people , resurrected , above the norm, holy , even 'divine' but not the same as God

But that was not the reason聽 we where saying that certain religions that are known to be or claim to be monotheistic are not 聽 - 聽 praying to saints actually never entered into it聽 ....聽 until you bought that up .

Edited by Nungali

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2 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

... and a fake magician has not read Darwin's book and the entities think that he's not competent enough to evolve them.

Which Darwin's book ?

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To all:

The term "Magician" is only useful to refer to the apparent elevated knowledge, wisdom, and ability a person has that is above and below other people. 聽We all know that everything that exists isn't magical in the sense that it can't be explained or that it is supernatural and beyond comprehension... 聽Therefore - a magician is just someone who is more capable than others in doing whatever they want to do. 聽They have freewill to use their knowledge and ability just like a normal person does. 聽Magicians don't serve a defined purpose, they do whatever they want, just like everyone else. 聽

However, there is a distinction between a magician and a sorcerer. 聽A magician abides by the truth they have learned and actually endeavors to live in balance and harmony with the laws of existence, to that end they are moral based people who believe in the common good because they are a part of it. 聽They seldom perform anything for their own self gratification and never violate the laws for their own purposes, because they know they will incur severe consequences that are undesirable for their well being and the well being of others. 聽A sorcerer is the opposite. 聽A sorcerer is driven by their ego to get whatever they want by any means necessary and doesn't care about others, they are mostly immoral and seek to live their lives according to their own rules, which in the end usually delivers them into places and positions of misfortune. 聽Sorcerers mostly depend on the power of other spiritual beings because they think it's easier to do that, than to develop themselves in that direction by their own efforts. 聽They are lazy, misguided, and ultimately a liability to the common good. 聽Sometimes sorcerers are called black magicians. 聽And there is a clear distinction between them and magicians. 聽The duality of good and evil is very real. 聽There is no point in trying to say that nothing is good or that nothing is evil...because thats an impossible way of living your life. 聽You have to make decisions based on something. 聽You can't always be justifying immoral actions by saying they aren't immoral in an absolute sense. 聽Even if one takes the position of justifying things that are immoral by that standard, they will still feel the effects of the consequences. 聽

I don't believe any good comes from ignoring the plain and simple truth about life at large. 聽People are naturally supposed to live a certain way, we are supposed to grow as spirits by learning about this world and everything in it. 聽And we are supposed to support one another in that pursuit. 聽People have to have basic things in life to live well, like sobriety, love, social groups, hobbies, and private studies. 聽Without these things, people become abnormal. 聽Nearly all cases of awful people in the world came about because they felt abandoned, misunderstood, without love, and without the objective understanding of how to live life in a normal and balanced way. 聽They end up going to extremes because they see no reason why not to, they end up being slaves to their own problems - all because they don't see past themselves, they turn inwards so much so that they forget about everyone else and have no regard for anyone but themselves. 聽Thats the exact sign of a narcissistic person, they are a danger to themselves and to other people. 聽All it takes to avoid that from becoming true is to have a normal and balanced attitude towards life and understand that not everything is about you all the time. 聽You're just a part of the bigger picture. 聽聽

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Yes.聽 Morality is about the effect we have on others.聽 One can live without care of that, but their actions will soon beget consequences that are detrimental to the individual that performed them.聽 One can continue to perform these actions, but eventually it will catch up to them, and they will lose their place in society, and it is nearly impossible to live without the co-operation of society.聽 聽 Morality is necessary.

I define Good and Evil as; harming another person's health, wealth, and liberty is Evil.聽 Aiding others is Good.聽 I've found that it is that simple.聽 Of course, in aiding people, you need prudence to decide how and when to do that.聽聽

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On 23/9/2022 at 8:18 AM, Nungali said:

However , many historical sources , cross referencing of history, archaeology , comparative textual analysis ... and even the opinions of more progressive Rabbis聽 point to no such times or beginnings with a belief like that .聽 Its a made up story .聽 聽(...) . It was a political move of certain elites to create a reverse engineered history and identity.

It's somehow traditional in judaism to have dozens of different opinions on a certain matter.

It's significant that the Bible talks about a number of civilizations before they were actually discovered and studied by archeology... but there are also six-fingered giants, angels, flying machines,etc...

So, in the story of Moses where God plays a central role and manifests a number of unexplainable phenonena (starting from the "kavod"), you're somehow forced to either take the all story literally as it is or to assume that it's a myth.聽

A scientific researcher, when presented with a character like Moses who's tied so strongly with the supernatural that it's impossible to artificially remove the unexplainable from him, he may tend to believe that he was not a real person... and that the story was made up.

But I think that he was real, along with the supernatural and the origins of monolatry.

On 23/9/2022 at 8:18 AM, Nungali said:

Hasidim are nothing like聽 Catholic saints.

Yes... and no.

In judaism, orthopraxis is certainly much more significant than in christianity. Sometimes, the love and devotion to a saint may go beyond certain limits, starting to resemble too strongly like a form of idolatry.

I don't want to go into further details.

On 23/9/2022 at 8:18 AM, Nungali said:

Oh yeah ... that聽 three in one God thing聽 .聽聽聽聽聽 The 'True and Single God '聽聽聽 :)聽 ... not like those Hindu pagan / heathens ;

Christianity (unlike hinduism) is an orthodoxy, meaning that you're requested to adhere to certain articles of faith.

One of those articles attempt to define the nature of God (on a more sophisticated level than creating an idol with 3 faces)... and this single matter caused dozens of schisms in history... but on a practical level, the worshiper pray to either Jesus or to God and they have the same role and function on this practical level, like a God with two names. It's not like calling Saint Anthony for healing a disease and Saint Michael for protection.

Hinduism is different. Firstly, nobody prays to Bhrama. Secondly, he's a god at the same level with the others... and thirdly, even if you expand the trinitarian concept to Vishnu, Bhrama and Shiva, you'll notice that they're not as interchangeables in worship as Jesus and God.

On 23/9/2022 at 8:18 AM, Nungali said:

Nah .聽 It works on聽 three levels . Just because Mohammed is elevated above Human does not mean he is seen as a God (or even sillier , one asserting that 'he might be' elevated to God position times to come)

Islam is not baha'i.

There are 3 categories of beings plus God that are relevant for human beings : angels, djinns and other men.聽

Amongst mankind there are 5 categories : messengers, prophets, believers, disbelievers and apostates.

These five categories constitutes real "levels" of humanity.

When I say that certain sects consider a particular messenger to be created directly from the light of God, I'm pointing out that a 4th special category of beings appears, above humans and angels... and that messenger is ascending the ranks, just like Jesus did: he was a man, then son of god, then god himself.

Edited by Cheshire Cat

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17 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

It's somehow traditional in judaism to have dozens of different opinions on a certain matter.

I dont know of a religion that does not do that .

17 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

It's significant that the Bible talks about a number of civilizations before they were actually discovered and studied by archeology... but there are also six-fingered giants, angels, flying machines,etc...

All scripture does that as well . So do oral stories and so does mythology.聽 I dont see the significance . The Bible is a hotchpotch of different stories, myths, some geographical information, social laws, etc聽 etc .

I have no idea what the second part of tat is supposed to mean, have reference to or how it is significant 聽 ?

17 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

So, in the story of Moses where God plays a central role and manifests a number of unexplainable phenonena (starting from the "kavod"), you're somehow forced to either take the all story literally as it is or to assume that it's a myth.聽

No I am not . Nor is anyone else that doesnt have such a black and white view .

17 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

A scientific researcher, when presented with a character like Moses who's tied so strongly with the supernatural that it's impossible to artificially remove the unexplainable from him, he may tend to believe that he was not a real person... and that the story was made up.

Of course its a made up story .聽聽 We can identify all through the story where it comes from .聽 Every part from the creation to the Garden of Eden, the guy that Abraham was based on聽 , the movements of people,聽 a description here and there , a fantastic story, now a tribal hero arises ( several times ) , attempts at borrowing monotheism, mentions of times of oppression and capture ( which might be true events or a tale of a true event ) and so on.

There is no compulsion whatsoever to accept the Bible narrative as either all true or all false聽聽 .聽聽 I have never heard of such a thing聽 except from extreme fundamentalists or extreme anti-religious, anti Christian atheists .

17 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

But I think that he was real, along with the supernatural and the origins of monolatry.

Okay .

17 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

Yes... and no.

In judaism, orthopraxis is certainly much more significant than in christianity. Sometimes, the love and devotion to a saint may go beyond certain limits, starting to resemble too strongly like a form of idolatry.

I don't want to go into further details.

I will .聽 And to de-muddy the waters , this part was about you saying ;

"There are many currents in judaism, some of them are religious. Sometimes, it's a pure monotheism... sometimes there are some devotions to saints.聽 " . 聽聽 ..... 聽聽 and me responding聽 : " Hasidim are nothing like聽 Catholic saints . "

To which you respond :聽 "In Judaism, orthopraxis is certainly much more significant than in Christianity. "

orthopraxis -聽聽聽 from Greek orthos correct + praxis deed, action .

"聽聽 the belief that right action is as important as religious faith "

聽and doesnt even address the issue of 'saints' , in Judaism .

- and I won't be going into further details on this either聽聽聽聽 :)


17 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

Christianity (unlike hinduism) is an orthodoxy, meaning that you're requested to adhere to certain articles of faith.

One of those articles attempt to define the nature of God (on a more sophisticated level than creating an idol with 3 faces)...

If you are going to take that approach聽 .....

Ummmm ... you do realise their is a fair bit of written material in Hinduism ... other than聽聽聽聽 'unsophisticated idols '聽聽 to express spiritual ideas ?

They have a few books on the subject .聽聽聽 :rolleyes:

聽( "聽 on a more sophisticated level than creating an idol with 3 faces "聽 ......聽聽 and people wonder why I get 'snarky' with others )

17 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

and this single matter caused dozens of schisms in history... but on a practical level, the worshiper pray to either Jesus or to God and they have the same role and function on this practical level, like a God with two names. It's not like calling Saint Anthony for healing a disease and Saint Michael for protection.

:D聽 Dontchya luv a monotheistic religion where you can pray to God聽聽聽 OR 聽 聽 Jesus聽聽聽聽聽 :D聽聽

17 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

Hinduism is different. Firstly, nobody prays to Bhrama.

Oh ?

Brahma-Temple-Pushkar-Rajasthan.jpg

聽There are temples to Brahma . The above one is the most famous and is聽 at聽聽聽 Pushkar in聽 Rajasthan.


So .... no praying allowed in there ?

17 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

Secondly, he's a god at the same level with the others...

What , like Jesus and 'God' are on the same level聽 ?聽

B)

17 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

and thirdly, even if you expand the trinitarian concept to Vishnu, Bhrama and Shiva, you'll notice that they're not as interchangeables in worship as Jesus and God.

Ah yes ... but that is because I was comparing聽 some similarities .... not saying they are exactly the same .

17 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

Islam is not baha'i.

:rolleyes:

I know that聽聽聽 .聽 THIS is what I mean :

" There are three major players in the Qur鈥檃n: God who wants to guide humanity, humanity who are ignorant of God and the prophets and messengers who are selected by God to communicate his word to humanity.聽 "

Professor Walid Saleh聽聽 ( Professor of Islamic Studies at the University of Toronto. He is a specialists on the Qur'an and the history of Qur'anic commentary tradition.) 聽 聽 https://www.bl.uk/sacred-texts/articles/prophecy-and-revelation-in-islam

AND Baha'i adopted / continued the same principle .

17 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

There are 3 categories of beings plus God that are relevant for human beings : angels, djinns and other men.聽

Amongst mankind there are 5 categories : messengers, prophets, believers, disbelievers and apostates.

You are going to have to show a reference for that聽 ^聽聽 .

There are 5 pillars of Islam , that have nothing to do with your 5 above .

Also there are 5 types of men :聽 1. The Muslim/Submitter 路 2. The Mumin/Faithful 路 3. The Mushrik/Idolater 路 4. The Kafir/Rejecter 路 5. The Munafiq/Hypocrite.

here is the reference ;

https://www.free-minds.org/5-types-people-quran

17 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

These five categories constitutes real "levels" of humanity.

When I say that certain sects consider a particular messenger to be created directly from the light of God, I'm pointing out that a 4th special category of beings appears, above humans and angels... and that messenger is ascending the ranks, just like Jesus did: he was a man, then son of god, then god himself.

Ohhhhhh !

So Jesus became a God聽 AFTER he incarnated ,聽 and was聽 not a Son of God / 'Son of God聽 / God , yet ... then during his life he became a Son of God ... and then later in his life ,聽 he achieved ....聽聽 and became God聽聽 .

Just like an Islamic 'messenger' will聽 (one day , as predicted by you ) 聽 become elevated to God himself聽 .... just like Jesus聽 was .

-聽 Okay then

:)聽聽

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1 hour ago, Nungali said:

So Jesus became a God聽 AFTER he incarnated ,聽 and was聽 not a Son of God / 'Son of God聽 / God , yet ... then during his life he became a Son of God ... and then later in his life ,聽 he achieved ....聽聽 and became God聽聽 .

From my reading Jesus was acting out the story of Enoch, "The Son of Man" who ws raised to heaven alive and was elevated to near God status as the Judge of mankind and the savior of the captives in Hell on Jubilee.聽 Well at least that's one of the threads the authors of the New testament decided to include in their scripture.

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7 hours ago, Nungali said:

So Jesus became a God聽 AFTER he incarnated ,聽 and was聽 not a Son of God / 'Son of God聽 / God , yet ... then during his life he became a Son of God ... and then later in his life ,聽 he achieved ....聽聽 and became God聽聽

I believe that he was a man.

People made him the Only begotten son of God in different stages.

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7 hours ago, Nungali said:

There is no compulsion whatsoever to accept the Bible narrative as either all true or all false聽聽 .聽聽 I have never heard of such a thing聽 except from extreme fundamentalists or extreme anti-religious, anti Christian atheists

It's compulsory to actually read the bible in order to be able to sustain a discussion on it聽:lol:

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8 hours ago, Nungali said:

orthopraxis -聽聽聽 from Greek orthos correct + praxis deed, action .

"聽聽 the belief that right action is as important as religious faith "

Orthopraxis is a technical term that defines a religion in which the "praxis" (rituals, feasts, etc...) are the elements that qualify the adherent to the faith.

For example, you can find extremely divergent belief systems in India (Especially if you jump from southern india to northern India), to the point that you may think to have found different religions. But what makes them all "hindus" are their practices, their rituals, the praxis聽

^_^

Edited by Cheshire Cat

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8 hours ago, Nungali said:

聽There are temples to Brahma . The above one is the most famous and is聽 at聽聽聽 Pushkar in聽 Rajasthan.


So .... no praying allowed in there ?

Yes!

There are plenty of Vaishnavas, Shaivas, Shaktas ... and the most famous Brahmasnavas sadhus going there everyday聽:lol::lol:

They all pray to Brahma!

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8 hours ago, Nungali said:

Also there are 5 types of men :聽 1. The Muslim/Submitter 路 2. The Mumin/Faithful 路 3. The Mushrik/Idolater 路 4. The Kafir/Rejecter 路 5. The Munafiq/Hypocrite.

Which category do you belong to?

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17 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

It's compulsory to actually read the bible in order to be able to sustain a discussion on it聽:lol:

I'd say more than聽聽 that . To be able to have a reasonable and intelligent discussion on it one needs , not only an open mind, but some education聽 related to the subject .

That is why聽聽 IF聽 you study 聽 Comparative Religion, there are certain units you must pass through to be able to comprehend the curriculum .聽 The first is ( or was for me ) a study of and a gained comprehension of the nature of belief . of course, after that comes history ... the context of the times .

.

Edited by Nungali

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16 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

Orthopraxis is a technical term that defines a religion in which the "praxis" (rituals, feasts, etc...) are the elements that qualify the adherent to the faith.

For example, you can find extremely divergent belief systems in India (Especially if you jump from southern india to northern India), to the point that you may think to have found different religions. But what makes them all "hindus" are their practices, their rituals, the praxis聽

^_^

Which addresses nothing about the reason that comment was made聽 and what it related to聽 ......聽聽 ? :huh:

YOU used the word in an attempt to justify you statement that Jewish religion had saints .

Are you having trouble concentrating and following the聽聽 rational stream of the conversation ?聽

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16 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

Which category do you belong to?

I belong to the category that can have a rational conversation聽 and the one that does not make a false claim聽 about types of people in Islam

Then when the evidence is put up about what the real catagory is ......聽聽 totally ignores the logic and reason of how the conversation got to that point ,聽 and tries to turn it back on the one that is pointing out the error or ignorance and asks such a聽 stupid question as you just did聽 .

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I spent years contemplating mystical ideas, figuring how they work together, what the result is.聽 It is a very creative thing to do, but one day I realized that none of this can be proven; that we fill ourselves with false hopes, and it leads to making reckless decisions.聽 It certainly is a motive for action, but it is flawed.聽聽

Now I sit quietly with no delusions about the supernatural.聽 I am free of worrying about my power, and the power of others.聽 I just let things be, and let them come by me as they are, without worry about how.

It is a stale environment in which I live.聽 It isn't creative or magical.聽 Sometimes when I think about all that I have been through, I come up with ideas of what it holds in the supernatural, and I have to remind myself that this is an unknown, and to stop thinking about it.聽 For me, it is safer to live like this, though it is not as exciting as when I travelled through magical realms of possibility.聽聽

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I cursed God yesterday, told Him He was Evil.聽 It's been 20 years that I have suffered with this condition and that was the first time I called Him Evil.聽聽

This madness was for nothing.聽 I thought for a long time that I was being punished, but I worked through my deeds and found that they didn't deserve this sort of punishment.聽 I thought that this happened to me for their entertainment, and I found that to be Evil.聽聽

I don't know why the Gods did this to me.聽 It seems like such a waste of power.聽 And, why would any God be offended by mankind?聽 Why would any God need to inflict such terrible things onto such a lowly person for no reason?聽 It's Evil.聽 I'm not Job;聽 I don't have the strong faith that he had.聽 I was a simple man, who was agnostic, and when I learned there was actually a God, it surprised me.聽 I went out of my way to prove that there was one, to defend Him, but He didn't care.聽 He just used me to make a fool of.

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15 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said:

鈥 I don't know why the Gods did this to me. 鈥


I think you do it all to yourself.

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