silent thunder Posted September 12, 2023 Seems a bit sticky to claim a concept does not exist... It seems very large territory to cover with one's local awareness. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted September 12, 2023 (edited) 54 minutes ago, silent thunder said: Seems a bit sticky to claim a concept does not exist... It seems very large territory to cover with one's local awareness. The concept exists. The content doesn't. The idea that was being introduced is the supremacy of 'zero', but zero requires at least 1 other number to define itself. That means that 0 is not and never can be supreme. If it is ever supreme, then it ceases to exist. Qabalistic zero defeats itself. Zero can only be lesser or equivilent. Perhaps it desires supremacy, but, it can't have it. So, mathematically, yes, 0 = 0 * infinity. But this does not render infinity into a subservient position. And this ignores all the counter-examples: 1+0 = 1 2+0 = 2 3+0 = 3 1-0 = 1 2-0 = 2 3-0 = 3 1/0 = infinity 2/0 = infinity 3/0 = infinity etc. "As per Crowley: "How then is the magician supposed to destroy himself"? This is how the magician destroys themself. It's a problem, or is it? Edited September 12, 2023 by Daniel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted September 12, 2023 There's a converse argument made for the supremacy of 1. There's also an interesting discussion that can be had about 3s. The argument for the supremacy of 1 is very strong in my opinion. Naturally I'm biased though. It's very simple. All other numbers are constructed from the number 1. That makes it supreme. Simple, and lacking any counter-examples. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted September 12, 2023 On 2.7.2023 at 10:12 AM, helpfuldemon said: I've come to realize that this system is a study in demonology. The Abyss Grade, which is only bestowed upon people with great Chesed, is to be tortured and humiliated by demons. They drain the poor adept of all of their Wisdom and hope, and force them to work on solutions to life's problems. They embody the forces of resistance. Gautama had to deal with them on his way to Enlightenment. But their nature is maia, and whatever power they may have is drawn from the seeker who is facing them. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted September 12, 2023 5 hours ago, Daniel said: The problem is, qabalistic zero doesn't exist. Arguably, qabalistic zero is represented by En soph. Which from one view is the zero point field that underlies the manifested world. From En soph, the Tree of Life emerges. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted September 12, 2023 Neitche knows: Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you. https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Beyond_Good_and_Evil I think the qualifier "lange" / "long" is very important here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted September 12, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said: Arguably, qabalistic zero is represented by En soph. Which from one view is the zero point field that underlies the manifested world. From En soph, the Tree of Life emerges. Ain-Soph literally means "without-end" or "never-ending". It's a term meaning infinite. The field that underlies the manifested world is, if I recall. ohr-ain-soph, never-ending-light. The qabalistic zero is 'Ain' unqualified. Edited September 12, 2023 by Daniel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted September 12, 2023 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ein_Sof This is a pretty good description. First paragraph of the article: Ein Sof, or Eyn Sof (/eɪn sɒf/, Hebrew: אֵין סוֹף ʾēn sōf; meaning "infinite", lit. '(There is) no end'), in Kabbalah, is understood as God prior to any self-manifestation in the production of any spiritual realm, probably derived from Solomon ibn Gabirol's (c. 1021 – c. 1070) term, "the Endless One" (she-en lo tiklah). Ein Sof may be translated as "unending", "(there is) no end", or infinity.[1] It was first used by Azriel (c. 1160 – c. 1238), who, sharing the Neoplatonic belief that God can have no desire, thought, word, or action, emphasized by it the negation of any attribute. Of the Ein Sof, nothing ("Ein") can be grasped ("Sof"-limitation). It is the origin of the Ohr Ein Sof, the "Infinite Light" of paradoxical divine self-knowledge, nullified within the Ein Sof prior to creation. In Lurianic Kabbalah, the first act of creation, the Tzimtzum self "withdrawal" of God to create an "empty space", takes place from there. In Hasidic Judaism, the Tzimtzum is only the illusionary concealment of the Ohr Ein Sof, giving rise to monistic panentheism. The important point is the "withdrawl" the "empty-space" is an illusion. It's not literally withdrawl, it's not literally empty-space. empty-space does not exist. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted September 12, 2023 4 minutes ago, Daniel said: Ain-Soph literally means "without-end" or "never-ending". It's a term meaning infinite. The field that underlies the manifested world is, if I recall. ohr-ain-soph, never-ending-light. The qabalistic zero is 'Ain' unqualified. I was purposefully not overly exacting here, since the infinitely large and the infinitely small (i.e., zero) strangely coincide. As we discussed in another thread. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted September 12, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said: I was purposefully not overly exacting here, since the infinitely large and the infinitely small (i.e., zero) strangely coincide. As we discussed in another thread. I would argue that the infinitely large is 1 not 0. As infinity is approached the distinctions that border each individual 'thing' become less and less significant. Eventually the distinctions which border seperate each individual "thing" become infinitesimal. when infinity is achieved the distinctions become 0, there are no borders, everything becomes 1. 0 is not included in infinity. infinity is 1. this is why mathematically infinity +1 = infinity infinity +10 = infinity infinity + 100 = infinity infinity + infinity = infinity it's the ultimate tautology / identity. Edited September 12, 2023 by Daniel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted September 12, 2023 0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0 ... will never = infinity which is unlke any other number. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted September 12, 2023 (edited) . Edited September 12, 2023 by Daniel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
helpfuldemon Posted September 12, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, Daniel said: The concept exists. The content doesn't. The idea that was being introduced is the supremacy of 'zero', but zero requires at least 1 other number to define itself. That means that 0 is not and never can be supreme. If it is ever supreme, then it ceases to exist. Qabalistic zero defeats itself. Zero can only be lesser or equivilent. Perhaps it desires supremacy, but, it can't have it. So, mathematically, yes, 0 = 0 * infinity. But this does not render infinity into a subservient position. And this ignores all the counter-examples: 1+0 = 1 2+0 = 2 3+0 = 3 1-0 = 1 2-0 = 2 3-0 = 3 1/0 = infinity 2/0 = infinity 3/0 = infinity etc. "As per Crowley: "How then is the magician supposed to destroy himself"? This is how the magician destroys themself. It's a problem, or is it? 0 is infinite nothing. Anything else is infinitely everything, or individually infinitely itself. Edited September 12, 2023 by helpfuldemon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted September 12, 2023 23 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said: 0 is infinite nothing. I only have the most trivial quibbles with this. I would use a different symbol. Either NULL or {} or ∅. infinite-nothing is disjointed from everything. Always and forever, in any possible world. 23 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said: Anything else is infinitely everything, or individually infinitely itself. Only when everything is included. Individually or in groups, each thing or group is itself and is not infinite. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted September 12, 2023 3 minutes ago, Daniel said: infinite-nothing is disjointed from everything. Lacking something, anything, infinite-nothing is no longer disjointed and dissappears in a puff of self-contradiction. Infinite-nothing NEEDS something, anything. And that is why I love it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted September 12, 2023 2 hours ago, Daniel said: I would argue that the infinitely large is 1 not 0. As infinity is approached the distinctions that border each individual 'thing' become less and less significant. Eventually the distinctions which border seperate each individual "thing" become infinitesimal. when infinity is achieved the distinctions become 0, there are no borders, everything becomes 1. 0 is not included in infinity. infinity is 1. this is why mathematically infinity +1 = infinity infinity +10 = infinity infinity + 100 = infinity infinity + infinity = infinity it's the ultimate tautology / identity. 2 hours ago, Daniel said: 0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0 ... will never = infinity which is unlke any other number. 0 can be defined as the infinitely small. Just like the series of natural numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, ... approaches infinity, their reciprocals 1/1, 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/5, 1/6, ... approach 0. Thus, 1/∞ = 0. In this sense, the number 1 can be said to be in the middle between infinity and zero. And this is where manifestation occurs. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted September 12, 2023 14 hours ago, helpfuldemon said: Crowely took the Grades of the GD for initiation. That is how he followed along and developed his own religion. That can read like : Crowley took the grades for initiation for 'his' system ( AA) FROM the GD ..... which might be more accurate . He didnt follow along ... he broke his oaths, used that system to develop his 'own' private closed club Order . But the OTO was different ; instead of going through that and breaking its oaths and then splitting off to use what he learnt from it to make his own system he was 'brought into it ' , 'overtook it' from the inside ( after he failed trying to do that with the GD ) , and then changed its focus from Christian mysticism to Thelema as well as replacing its first 3 degrees ( previously they where the 3 degrees of Freemasonry ) with three new introductory degrees of the Man of Earth triad . The AA remains a closed 'clicky' club while the OTO took off internationally . Thats history .... not opinion . Try this ; ' What you should know about the Golden dawn ' by Israel Regardie - if any knew what what went on in there and what it is about , Regardie is the guy . https://www.amazon.com.au/What-Should-Know-About-Golden/dp/1561840645 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted September 12, 2023 8 hours ago, Daniel said: The concept exists. The content doesn't. The idea that was being introduced is the supremacy of 'zero', but zero requires at least 1 other number to define itself. That means that 0 is not and never can be supreme. If it is ever supreme, then it ceases to exist. Qabalistic zero defeats itself. Zero can only be lesser or equivilent. Perhaps it desires supremacy, but, it can't have it. So, mathematically, yes, 0 = 0 * infinity. But this does not render infinity into a subservient position. And this ignores all the counter-examples: 1+0 = 1 2+0 = 2 3+0 = 3 1-0 = 1 2-0 = 2 3-0 = 3 1/0 = infinity 2/0 = infinity 3/0 = infinity etc. "As per Crowley: "How then is the magician supposed to destroy himself"? This is how the magician destroys themself. It's a problem, or is it? But it seems only YOU that are claiming some type of 'supremacy' of 0 ? It isnt 'supreme' its 'origin' ... according to Crowley , mathematics, cosmology , Daoism ... all 'comes from' 0 . 'Kabbalaistic Zero' exists as 'Ain ' / ' Ayin' . " Ain is the highest and first of the viels. It is literally translated as 'nothing', or simply 'no'; it is absolute emptiness, the opposite of existence, complete absence" "Yesh me-Ayin" ("Something from Nothing") https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayin_and_Yesh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted September 12, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Daniel said: Ain-Soph literally means "without-end" or "never-ending". It's a term meaning infinite. The field that underlies the manifested world is, if I recall. ohr-ain-soph, never-ending-light. 'Ain - Soph - Aur ' 0r Light in extension . OR 'something' ( as yet undefined ) means also onething , in this case 'light' not just 'being' but 'becoming' .... moving .... going ... hence the Egyptian winged disc ... the disc is the 'point' the wings signify movement ... the one point in extension ..... hence the Egytian maxim 'The God-force is not in the 'being' but in the 'going ' ... hence the symbol of 'God / animating force / movement / going represented by the 'sandal strap' hieroglyph ; ankh The qabalistic zero is 'Ain' unqualified. yet you claimed qabalistic zero does not exist . Edited September 12, 2023 by Nungali Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted September 12, 2023 3 hours ago, Daniel said: I would argue that the infinitely large is 1 not 0. As infinity is approached the distinctions that border each individual 'thing' become less and less significant. Eventually the distinctions which border seperate each individual "thing" become infinitesimal. when infinity is achieved the distinctions become 0, there are no borders, everything becomes 1. 0 is not included in infinity. infinity is 1. this is why mathematically infinity +1 = infinity infinity +10 = infinity infinity + 100 = infinity infinity + infinity = infinity it's the ultimate tautology / identity. Except 0 = 2 ie 0 = n+ + n- or if you like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superpartner or if you like Ch 42 TTC or 0 = ' the multitude of 'manifestation ' .... if it starts ... why should it stop ? ie. = infinity . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
helpfuldemon Posted September 13, 2023 Man of Earth triad[edit] 0°—Minerval I°—Man & Brother II°—Magician III°—Master Magician IV°—Perfect Magician & Companion of the Holy Royal Arch of Enoch P.I.—Perfect Initiate, or Prince of Jerusalem The OTO is Jewish, and Thelema isn't. The two aren't compatible methinks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
helpfuldemon Posted September 13, 2023 The A A are atheists aspirants to the A A are men Brothers to the A A are women. Check the Lovers card in the Thoth Deck Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted September 13, 2023 5 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: 0 can be defined as the infinitely small. Just like the series of natural numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, ... approaches infinity, their reciprocals 1/1, 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/5, 1/6, ... approach 0. Thus, 1/∞ = 0. Infinitely small? Zero? Anyone can define anything they want however they want I suppose. Once it's zero, it's not small, it's empty. But if you want to define zero that way, that's your choice. Take out a ruler and measure the size of something of 0 length, and let me know how it goes? Please don't forget to let me know what you decided to measure? 5 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: In this sense, the number 1 can be said to be in the middle between infinity and zero. Agreed. 5 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: And this is where manifestation occurs. If you say so. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted September 13, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, helpfuldemon said: The OTO is Jewish, Erm. Is its mother Jewish? ~kidding~ But seriously, what makes you say so? How do you evaluate is or is not Jewish? Edited September 13, 2023 by Daniel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
helpfuldemon Posted September 13, 2023 37 minutes ago, Daniel said: Erm. Is its mother Jewish? ~kidding~ But seriously, what makes you say so? How do you evaluate is or is not Jewish? 0°—Minerval I°—Man & Brother II°—Magician III°—Master Magician IV°—Perfect Magician & Companion of the Holy Royal Arch of Enoch P.I.—Perfect Initiate, or Prince of Jerusalem because these are the grades of accomplishment in the OTO Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
