What exactly is neidan/internal alchemy?

[freeform]

3 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

This is the best description on the purpose of Taoist alchemy.   People are using it for many purposes. 

I think the main issue is that they’re using the alchemical model to supplement their experience or understanding in a different tradition…

 

And traditions don’t necessarily mix.

 

In fact mixing traditions will usually dilute everything and muddy it all up.

[Wilhelm]

15 minutes ago, dwai said:

Do you think the absolute only presents itself in certain things and not in others? Every thing, phenomenon, action, has five aspects. Names and forms (which is what most people stop at). The other three aspects are of being, light, and bliss. This is known to those who have learned how to see. So whether it is a flower, or neijing tu, those who can discern can get not just penetrating insights but full blown realization. 

Haha your buddy seems to think otherwise  

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Great clip.  Surprised this one didn't get any pushback from the YouTube commenters! 

[freeform]

2 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

hehe - well you see there are two sources of the fluid. one is advanced another is not so much but both are good and not one of them is secret both are in OSINT. come on tell us, it will not impugne you!

The ‘not advanced’ one  

[Taoist Texts]

35 minutes ago, dwai said:

They are neither necessary nor indicative of the “level” of a yogi/tantric. 

(sigh) thats absolutely opposite to what the text say. I am fascinating how this works in peeps minds. they always pick not just any old wrong answer but the one which completely refutes the tradition.

[Taoist Texts]

2 minutes ago, freeform said:

The ‘not advanced’ one  

it is still excellent. good for you!

[Wilhelm]

20 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

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Interesting how the DDJ approach is differentiated from Alchemy.  I had thought some pieces of alchemy were present in the DDJ, but that it hadn't been systematized yet.

 

Makes me wonder how much (edit: tantra/energy work, not alchemy) is necessary for the Buddhist approach?  🤔

Edited November 25, 2022 by Wilhelm

[dwai]

5 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

(sigh) thats absolutely opposite to what the text say. I am fascinating how this works in peeps minds. they always pick not just any old wrong answer but the one which completely refutes the tradition.

Have you read the text?  

[freeform]

3 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Interesting how the DDJ approach is differentiated from Alchemy.  I had thought some pieces of alchemy were present in the DDJ, but that it hadn't been systematized yet.

 

Makes me wonder how much (edit: tantra/energy work, not alchemy) is necessary for the Buddhist approach?  🤔

I also think it’s very interesting

 

The alchemy pieces in DDJ are not really alchemy - they just come from the same root (Yi Jing). There is also a theory that the text was edited to include alchemical references later down the line - but who knows.

[freeform]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

Have you read the text?  

Dude - his name is literally Taoist Texts! How could he not have! 

[Taoist Texts]

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

Have you read the text?

heh. you can bet the farm on it.

[Taoist Texts]

1 minute ago, freeform said:

The alchemy pieces in DDJ are not really alchemy -

this is correct

1 minute ago, freeform said:

they just come from the same root (Yi Jing).

this is not. but still all good.

[freeform]

7 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Interesting how the DDJ approach is differentiated from Alchemy.  I had thought some pieces of alchemy were present in the DDJ, but that it hadn't been systematized yet.

 

Makes me wonder how much (edit: tantra/energy work, not alchemy) is necessary for the Buddhist approach?  🤔

Alchemy, I believe is actually relatively more modern than most people seem to think… 

 

The DDJ path is an older one. It is said that the end result of DDJ and Neidan are quite different… 

[freeform]

9 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Quote

they just come from the same root (Yi Jing).

this is not. but still all good.

Say more?

 

That was totally just my opinion - so I’m very open to having my mind changed  

Edited November 25, 2022 by freeform

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

heh. you can bet the farm on it.

Then i agree with you that it’s so fascinating how peeps can latch onto the exact opposite message than what is intended in such texts, depending on their predilections! 

 

So how do you interpret the vibhuti pada? I’ll start a separate thread so we can dig deeper into this.  

Edited November 25, 2022 by dwai

[Wilhelm]

4 minutes ago, freeform said:

Alchemy, I believe is actually relatively more modern than most people seem to think… 

 

The DDJ path is an older one. It is said that the end result of DDJ and Neidan are quite different… 

I had it in mind the correct application of the DDJ led to becoming the Zhen Ren talked about in the text (and sincere apologies to the more learned here if I spelt it wrong 😬)

Edited November 25, 2022 by Wilhelm

[MetaDao]

24 minutes ago, freeform said:

Alchemy, I believe is actually relatively more modern than most people seem to think… 

 

The DDJ path is an older one. It is said that the end result of DDJ and Neidan are quite different… 

Strange. I think the opposite. It is more ancient than people think, dating back not hundreds of years but thousands. There was an ancient era prior to written history where Neidan existed.

 

The entire Chinese language was developed out of an alchemical understanding.

 

Not to mention other parts of the physical universe containing things similar to Neidan. It is much more ancient than people believe 

Edited November 25, 2022 by MetaDao

[Wilhelm]

23 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

Strange. I think the opposite. It is more ancient than people think, dating back not hundreds of years but thousands. There was an ancient era prior to written history where Neidan existed.

 

The entire Chinese language was developed out of an alchemical understanding 

👀 I don't suppose you have a source for this idea, eh?

 

Unrelated: my favorite application of the Chinese language: 

https://hiddenremote.com/2014/12/12/top-10-firefly-chinese-insults/

 

Edit: ahhhh catch you next week then! 

Edited November 25, 2022 by Wilhelm

[Taoist Texts]

6 minutes ago, freeform said:

Say more?

 

That was totally my opinion - so I’m very open to having my mind changed

thanks for asking!

 

DDJ is a manual for governing a bronze age state. Later it was interpreted as a sacred text that can be applied to anything including of course neidan. 

 

Yi Jing is a stone/bronze age divination cheat sheet. Later it was used to model the neidan process with it.

 

Although of the (very roughly) same historical period these two texts contain no cross-reference at all. Both became parts of the confucian curriculum. Neidan first and foremost is a confucian art, taoism is an afterthought in neidan.

 

The main reason why DDJ and YJ have nothing to do with neidan originally its because the human consciousness was evolving over the course of history.  The bronze age man did not mind death but actually welcomed it being certain of going to a better place, he absolutely did not need immortality since he had it already. The pre-modern man however was less sure so he needed an immortality technique which the neidan is, nothing else but immortality . Not any wishy-washy verbiage. Immortality.

[freeform]

4 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

DDJ is a manual for governing a bronze age state.

You mean like governing a country/people?

[Taoist Texts]

3 minutes ago, freeform said:

You mean like governing a country/people?

exactly. and quite brutally too!

[freeform]

22 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

There was an ancient era prior to written history where Neidan existed.

From off the cuff discussions with wiser people than me, what I understand is that at an earlier age, we simply didn’t need tantric methods at all… humans were already almost perfected - and access to spiritual enlightenment/immortality was far easier.

 

But to me this is all speculation that doesn’t make much of a difference.

 

I don’t have a romantic notion of the ancient times (or the notion that modern humans are somehow superior!)

 

I don’t really mind where it came from, what the root is… whether it’s Confucian or Buddhist or Daoist or Lizardmen in origin… I just see who my teacher and his seniors have become as a result of using these methods - and I got very inspired by that.

 

These days I don’t even feel inspired to get anywhere with these arts. I feel a sense of duty to keep them alive as a practitioner… but I don’t care about them that much.

I mean people in my life would disagree coz they see me practicing for 4hrs a day… But what’s driving the practice isn’t some idealised state I want to achieve… nothing could be more ideal than what already is… it’s something else - and I don’t have the words for it yet…

 

 

[freeform]

11 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

exactly. and quite brutally too!

Interesting.

 

To me that’s a surface reading of the DDJ…

 

With the DDJ, what you’re governing is not a state outside, but your state inside. 

 

But to you, I’m probably reading into it something that it is not… 

 

But it’s ok to disagree  

[Barnaby]

34 minutes ago, freeform said:

I just see who my teacher and his seniors have become as a result of using these methods - and I got very inspired by that.

 

Could I ask what it is that you found so inspiring? 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Interesting.

 

To me that’s a surface reading of the DDJ…

 

With the DDJ, what you’re governing is not a state outside, but your state inside. 

 

But to you, I’m probably reading into it something that it is not… 

 

But it’s ok to disagree  

According my teachers, the “governing” part was not part of the original teachings, but got bolted on later by someone else. DDJ is a complete and self-contained means of attaining Realization.  Nothing more is needed if one can understand and follow what it is pointing to. 

[Cobie]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

exactly. and quite brutally too!

Could you give an example please, of text in the DDJ that’s about governing a state “quite brutally”.