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Apech

Buddhist Magic and Why We Shouldn’t Cast It Aside

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Nice quotation.

I question the following bit...

 

3 hours ago, C T said:

indeed all of the phenomena of the entire so-called internal and external universe—are nothing other than false objectifications and solidifications of nondual awareness.

 

"Objectifications and solidifications of nondual awareness" may not be the full story, but this does not make them false.

They are our life experience and are very true for us in our current form of existence, dualistic or not.

I think it's more accurate and useful to refer to them as the display of the base rather than false.

To see them as false is the error, according to the dzogchen texts. 

 

The other point is that asking a Westerner, whose life up to this point has been devoid of any context to give the unseen world and beings meaning, to simply accept the rich and complex pantheon of Tibetan beings is a very tall order. It is likely to cause as much confusion and distracting complication as be supportive. We need to come to these things gradually and with the right frame of mind and heart and in our own time. The cultural context is important. As I alluded to earlier, Buddhism became what it is in part to let go of much of the Hindu cultural baggage. Why now grasp onto the Tibetan cultural baggage?

 

Lots of interesting questions and challenges to consider.

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*double post*

 

(could be a programming/software glitch going on. Clicked 'save' once, and this happened)

Edited by C T

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I think what the writer meant is to leave alone the non-dual awareness when realized, or when its arisings are profoundly & unmistakably felt (maybe 'grokked' would be a more apt term). The tendency or reflexive habit of grasping at the non-dual experience has to be abandoned because the actual work is to realise the habitual traits, in all their nuances and subtleties, that drives the grasping nature, rather than focus on the experience(s). Non-reactivity is what I think the writer alluded to when he suggested to avoid objectifying and solidifying said experience - maybe by 'false' he was referencing that which has been solidified or objectified. 

 

I fully concur with your thoughts here: 

Quote

The other point is that asking a Westerner, whose life up to this point has been devoid of any context to give the unseen world and beings meaning, to simply accept the rich and complex pantheon of Tibetan beings is a very tall order. It is likely to cause as much confusion and distracting complication as be supportive. We need to come to these things gradually and with the right frame of mind and heart and in our own time. The cultural context is important. As I alluded to earlier, Buddhism became what it is in part to let go of much of the Hindu cultural baggage. Why now grasp onto the Tibetan cultural baggage?

 

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40 minutes ago, steve said:

Nice quotation.

I question the following bit...

 

 

"Objectifications and solidifications of nondual awareness" may not be the full story, but this does not make them false.

They are our life experience and are very true for us in our current form of existence, dualistic or not.

I think it's more accurate and useful to refer to them as the display of the base rather than false.

To see them as false is the error, according to the dzogchen texts. 

 

The other point is that asking a Westerner, whose life up to this point has been devoid of any context to give the unseen world and beings meaning, to simply accept the rich and complex pantheon of Tibetan beings is a very tall order. It is likely to cause as much confusion and distracting complication as be supportive. We need to come to these things gradually and with the right frame of mind and heart and in our own time. The cultural context is important. As I alluded to earlier, Buddhism became what it is in part to let go of much of the Hindu cultural baggage. Why now grasp onto the Tibetan cultural baggage?

 

Lots of interesting questions and challenges to consider.

 

 

Steve,

 

I think the problem is that altering something like iconography and contextual beliefs and so on when you don't really understand it is dangerous and so it is better in the short term for us to adopt the traditional framing - when there are home grown western realised masters they may introduce new revelations but we are not ready yet.  I don't think it is something that people should agonise over though - just accept pro-tem and let it filter through.

 

 

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I would be curious as to what texts you are thinking of. 

 

RR does have a basis for "false" narrative. Most Dzogchen creation "myths" rely on ignorance. For example, Longchenpa states for instance:
 

Quote

 

2. The primordial nature of the mind
Is a spacious, sky-like state
Where primal wisdom is like sun and moon and stars.
And yet when there occurs within this womb of space—
The wondrous sphere of emptiness—
A state of ignorance, conceptualization, dualistic clinging,
The hallucinations of the three worlds
And the six migrations manifest
In the manner of a magical illusion.

...

 

4. Deluded mind and its habitual tendencies,
Phenomenal existence, the objects of the senses
And the three poisons that fixate on them—
All these occur because of ignorance.
Devoid of real existence, they all appear unceasingly.
They are like conjured apparitions.
From now on be convinced
That they are empty, false reflections.

 

 

https://www.shambhala.com/second-vajra-point-magical-illusion/

 

 

On 2/15/2021 at 6:06 AM, steve said:

I think it's more accurate and useful to refer to them as the display of the base rather than false.

To see them as false is the error, according to the dzogchen texts. 

 

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5 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

I would be curious as to what texts you are thinking of. 

 

The one that comes to mind is the 21 Nails -

 

Self-originated primordial wisdom is the base.

The five poisonous mental afflictions are the dynamic energy.

Chasing after them is the way you are deluded.

Viewing them as deficient is the error.

Leaving them as they are is the method.

Freeing them into vastness is the path.

Non-duality is the realization

 

 

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1 hour ago, steve said:

 

The one that comes to mind is the 21 Nails -

 

Self-originated primordial wisdom is the base.

The five poisonous mental afflictions are the dynamic energy.

Chasing after them is the way you are deluded.

Viewing them as deficient is the error.

Leaving them as they are is the method.

Freeing them into vastness is the path.

Non-duality is the realization

 

 

Wow does this resonate!

Adding to my library.  Thank you.

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Nice translation. Definitely better than Reynold's, IMHO. Is that from Brown? 

 

I don't see this contradicting Reggie Ray's article nor Longchenpa, personally. False typically means to me empty, but of course because things are empty, they are also pure. However, just because phenomenon are pure doesn't mean they aren't deceptive--- they do appear at times to be separate, solid, existing, etc. But this would be a result of one's ignorance rather than any inherent deficiency in phenomenon. 

 

2 hours ago, steve said:

 

The one that comes to mind is the 21 Nails -

 

Self-originated primordial wisdom is the base.

The five poisonous mental afflictions are the dynamic energy.

Chasing after them is the way you are deluded.

Viewing them as deficient is the error.

Leaving them as they are is the method.

Freeing them into vastness is the path.

Non-duality is the realization

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

Nice translation. Definitely better than Reynold's, IMHO. Is that from Brown? 

 

I don't see this contradicting Reggie Ray's article nor Longchenpa, personally. False typically means to me empty, but of course because things are empty, they are also pure. However, just because phenomenon are pure doesn't mean they aren't deceptive--- they do appear at times to be separate, solid, existing, etc. But this would be a result of one's ignorance rather than any inherent deficiency in phenomenon. 

 

 

 

Excellent, always helpful when different teachings converge for us and don’t contradict each other. I can see your point and suspect you are correct regarding Reggie’s usage of “false.”

 

This translation was done by Kurt Kreutzer, as I recall. Brown’s translation is also excellent. His recent series of Bönpo publications has been wonderful. Jean Luc Achard has also translated the 21 Nails. He told me it was going to be published about 2 years ago... still waiting.

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1 hour ago, steve said:

Excellent, always helpful when different teachings converge for us and don’t contradict each other

 

Sorry, I am a questioner by nature. Please take no personal offense. :lol:

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3 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

Sorry, I am a questioner by nature. Please take no personal offense. :lol:

 

None taken

Can’t take this stuff too seriously if it’s all just empty!

:lol:

 

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7 hours ago, steve said:

 

The one that comes to mind is the 21 Nails -

 

Self-originated primordial wisdom is the base.

The five poisonous mental afflictions are the dynamic energy.

Chasing after them is the way you are deluded.

Viewing them as deficient is the error.

Leaving them as they are is the method.

Freeing them into vastness is the path.

Non-duality is the realization

 

 

 

 

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