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15 hours ago, Nungali said:

The person experienced in  REAL  fighting will probably win over the one not experienced in it  

 

You're spot on here. A few years ago I saw a local nutcase absolutely destroy a MMA dude in a pub fight. Purely due to savagery and violence. The whole thing was really shocking to me at the time. I've done external martial arts for most of my adult life but I'm not ashamed to say I quailed like a child.

 

I don't know why anyone would be interested in placing themselves in that position regularly enough to create the necessary familiarity needed to win most of the time.

Edited by Vajra Fist
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1 hour ago, Master Logray said:

Even if there is someone who masters the "Taichi principles", this person cannot survive on a street level. 

 

Yes - precisely. And similarly, a 'street brawler' would not survive in an MMA cage. Different contexts. Very different strategies, skills, and training necessary for each.

 

1 hour ago, Master Logray said:

Unfortunately so many people, including well-known cultivators believe that, with Taichi develops the Chi, then the real power will manifest and they can fight anyone.   It makes me wonder their words on cultivation is reliable or not.

 

Yes - this is the ridiculously romanticised over-mystification of the internal arts. Once you understand them, it's very clear that there is nothing mysterious there - strange, and outside of the 'normal', intuitive understanding of physics and power generation - but not mystical - it's really quite mechanistic. Only ones who don't understand, haven't developed the skill, or want to keep their students down, talk of taiji as a vague, mystical thing. I'd stay away from them.

Edited by freeform
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If fighting isn’t your thing , for fun I think a taiji practitioner could benefit from clinching with a Muay Thai fighter or judoka. I know in many martial arts groups it’s just assumed whatever it is they’re doing is going to transfer and be effective,that’s just delusional. 
 

   In life many people live fantasies. They may have no nefarious intent but their delusion can negatively impact other people. I’ve experienced this with martial art, I’ve seen it with religions and other situations where someone has knowledge and someone  else is trying to get it. (Since this is a daoist forum I’ll share that  This is in part my draw to zhuangzi philosophy. For me, I think opening your perspective  helps protect one from delusion or maybe ive just seen too many people be burnt and read it into it, unsure.)
 

   When  it comes to fighting if your teacher isn’t willing to spar, test yourself somewhere else. How can you honestly expect to use your art if no one around you is experienced? You’re going to have to learn yourself. Learn how to come at someone agressively and defend in a way that you might commonly encounter/dynamically/realistically. This alone will help your fighting awareness and help your interested classmates.
 

Note that this  can offend your teacher or make them uneasy. That’s life.. Hopefully Your teacher is honest, interested in understanding and helping Students.


     This isn’t an issue if you don’t care about  self defense or want to avoid conflict. To echo Longrays sentiment, youd be riht to ask, if No one can actually fight or even defend themselves with your art, who dropped the ball and what else wasn’t taught along the way?  What was the standard fighting ability in the arts glory days? You just can’t know unless you step out.   Simple defense is taught in competitive fighting arts immediately and can be developed quickly, at the very least learn to avoid getting destroyed  under pressure.

If a. 5 year student can’t defend themselves how is this not a failure? It’s really up to teachers and future teachers to bring competence to their art.Internal martial arts are refined and it takes work to achieve but the whole time you’re doing that work you should be learning universal fighting sense so that when you develop that special ability you have Atleast a chance of applying it. This whole idea is at odds with the way they’re practiced now though. 

 


   If you’re not aware of delusion your identity will fill in the holes and naturally keep you on that path. 
Seems like a lot of people have been down this road, I hope they take the lesson that people delude themselves and they test the reality and worth of what their teachers teach in life, in general.


 


 

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4 minutes ago, lrn2livorlive2lrn said:

This isn’t an issue if you don’t care about  self defense or want to avoid conflict

 

I think even if you're not interested in self defense, you're missing the real value of training a martial art, if you don't expose yourself to at least some pressure - like from sparring.

 

I think this is especially the case with internal arts - if you can only mobilise your jin under perfect circumstances, the real skill of the art is lost on you. The reason my teachers have taught martial arts has always been because it's a great way to train equanimity, song and ting while under pressure. This has many useful applications in spiritual cultivation - which is their main purpose... it also has many obvious applications in normal daily life...

 

If you don't apply pressure, you miss all of this valuable crossover.

 

The pressure doesn't even need to be that high... just some friendly, non-compliant sparring can be enough. Just doing forms and push hands isn't enough.

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I have watched videos of self-defense classes.  They are highly realistic.  Weapons are used.  2 vs 1 or 3 vs 1.  Sometimes the referee or the teacher will suddenly attack one of the combatants, also on uneven grounds etc.  

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I agree, their use as a hobby, stress reliever,fitness or whatever function they serve to different people is valid to me. It’s the lying to others and ourselves that is concerning to me. You’re right, people want to believe that these arts are Everything but to get the most out of them you have to use them — experience. For a lot of people just to be associated with the esteem of the art seems to be enough achievement. 
 

life.. in the end it’s up to you and what you make of it 

 


 

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